Out of town thread: Where the grass is ALWAYS greener!

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OldCraig71

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Feb 2, 2009
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You are confusing what I have said with others. This is what I said this past summer and I was very consistent... I said we head into the season with our new roster and see what circumstances we can take advantage of and maybe we can make a trade to make use of our salary cap. I overestimated our team D and that start to the season was just brutal. I was patient back in the summer and I still am. No matter who the GM is, patience is the direction I support.

It's sad, but I am happy we had a bad start. The best thing to happen to us at this point in time (in hindsight) is to take a few steps back. The pressure to win was building up too much. Expectations need to be toned down a bit IMO.

So either way, you are steadfast in your defense of management!! It should come as no surprise because I remember you basically called Bergevin a genius because in assembling a defence like ours was his creative way of tanking(you did say that and we all laughed). Now that we are in a playoff spot you are willing to tone down expectations right? So if we fall back out of contention it would have really been Bergevins plan all along, am I doing this right?
 

waffledave

waffledave, from hf
Aug 22, 2004
33,417
15,736
Montreal
Where is the evidence to support what you are spouting? At least I have done my homework. All you are doing is adding noise on top of noise with nothing to back it up.

My evidence is that calling McCarron, DLR and Scherbak bonafide NHL players is complete nonsense at this stage in their careers, and to pretend that they are in order to pump up our draft "successes" is as transparent as it gets.
 
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Habs Halifax

Loyal Habs Fan
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So either way, you are steadfast in your defense of management!! It should come as no surprise because I remember you basically called Bergevin a genius because in assembling a defence like ours was his creative way of tanking(you did say that and we all laughed). Now that we are in a playoff spot you are willing to tone down expectations right? So if we fall back out of contention it would have really been Bergevins plan all along, am I doing this right?

When someone takes others post our of context and tries to use it against them at a later time ^^^^^^^^. Please continue and tell me how I said Bergevin was a Genius? Come on man. For the record, I evaluate our GM year to year, not day to day or month to month like you do. An 82 game schedule is a long season and after the start we had, I think we need to take a few steps back. Said this over and over for a while now... But all you see is what you want to see.
 

NotProkofievian

Registered User
Nov 29, 2011
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If I was president right now and you showed me a more proven guy that was available, I would fire him.

Dean Lombardi. Baddabing baddaboom.

However, where you fail to accept is my angle of reasoning. I don't agree that firing him today and replacing him with someone like Brisebois is the solution. I don't see Bergevin sacrificing our future so I don't see a point to fire him at this point. It's a critical point in his tenure and we need to ride out this path we are on IMO.

Like I said, If the right moves are made from here till trade deadline and then this off season, this roster can be turned around and the perception of our organization could look quite different in 12 months... with or without Bergevin.

I have posted at length explaining why I don't see BriseBois as necessarily being some kind of saviour. Even @417 and I saw eye to eye on this. Dogs were living with cats. It was an unprecedented example of hfboards harmony.

Is there a situation dire enough in the entire NHL that you couldn't make the bolded statement about? It seems that you'd just have to change the magnitude of the moves. If this is your standard for keeping Bergevin (that thins could look very different in a year) you'd literally have to keep just about anyone. That's a problem, obviously. I just have higher standards than you do.
 

Habs Halifax

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My evidence is that calling McCarron, DLR and Scherbak bonafide NHL players is complete nonsense at this stage in their careers, and to pretend that they are in order to pump up our draft "successes" is as transparent as it gets.

Bonafide eh? I said that?

The point was comparing 2008-2011 vs 2012-2017 with the Habs and then looking at how this compares to the rest of the league. But hey, how about you keep telling us that McCarron, DLR, and Scherbak won't be NHL players just like people said that Hudon, Lehkonen, and Mete would not be. You have some pretty hard core evidence working for you here I tell you. It erases everything I presented right?
 

teamfirst

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Oct 28, 2016
3,452
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When someone takes others post our of context and tries to use it against them at a later time ^^^^^^^^. Please continue and tell me how I said Bergevin was a Genius? Come on man. For the record, I evaluate our GM year to year, not day to day or month to month like you do. An 82 game schedule is a long season and after the start we had, I think we need to take a few steps back. Said this over and over for a while now... But all you see is what you want to see.

True, Price was awfull at the beginning of the season, went 3-7-1, if he was only decent during this stretch we probably had 3 more wins, wich mean we would be 16-10-3 unstead of 13-13-3......only 2 points behind the Mighty Leafs
 

nhlfan9191

Registered User
Aug 4, 2010
19,585
17,344
If I was president right now and you showed me a more proven guy that was available, I would fire him. However, where you fail to accept is my angle of reasoning. I don't agree that firing him today and replacing him with someone like Brisebois is the solution. I don't see Bergevin sacrificing our future so I don't see a point to fire him at this point. It's a critical point in his tenure and we need to ride out this path we are on IMO.

Like I said, If the right moves are made from here till trade deadline and then this off season, this roster can be turned around and the perception of our organization could look quite different in 12 months... with or without Bergevin.

You’re saying you don’t see Bergevin sacrificing the future but talk about moves at the deadline. In order to get the pieces we need at the deadline, it will require Bergevin to sacrifice the future and the deadline is the worst time to buy because of how expensive assets are. If you were a good president, you’d be making sure Bergevin doesn’t make any panic moves with futures until you find a suitable replacement and then start a rebuild or retool with someone who has a different vision for the team. The suits with ties need to be cleaned up and if we miss the playoffs 2 out of 3 years, it’s unacceptable that they get another chance. The current club makeup is a mess right now, a lot of it has to do with management. You need to accept the truth on that. The longer most of these guys stay employed, the greater chance they have to make things worse.
 

Price is Wright

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Feb 5, 2010
12,494
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essex
I feel like people need new terms to explain what they mean.

I don't care if Timmins drafts players that get 2,000 games and are "NHL players" if they are bottom six/bottom three/backups.

I don't care if a draft pick is only as good as a guy you can get for cheap on free agency. I care if the draft pick is an actual contributor to the success of the team.
 

Habs Halifax

Loyal Habs Fan
Jul 11, 2016
68,166
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East Coast
Dean Lombardi. Baddabing baddaboom.



I have posted at length explaining why I don't see BriseBois as necessarily being some kind of saviour. Even @417 and I saw eye to eye on this. Dogs were living with cats. It was an unprecedented example of hfboards harmony.

Is there a situation dire enough in the entire NHL that you couldn't make the bolded statement about? It seems that you'd just have to change the magnitude of the moves. If this is your standard for keeping Bergevin (that thins could look very different in a year) you'd literally have to keep just about anyone. That's a problem, obviously. I just have higher standards than you do.

Listen, I understand why you think we can do better if we fire Bergevin because of your own set of standards and evaluations. I don't hold this against you either. However, you have to realize that others have the right to choose to be patient just as much as you with not wanting to waste any more time with Bergevin.

If we are going to fire Bergevin, I would wait till the off season. That's when there are a lot of GM's available. It this happens, I am more interested in who Molson hires as a president as I don't believe his is qualified to search and hire our next GM.

Be Careful with what you wish for.
 

OldCraig71

Registered User
Feb 2, 2009
34,821
53,825
No one cares
When someone takes others post our of context and tries to use it against them at a later time ^^^^^^^^. Please continue and tell me how I said Bergevin was a Genius? Come on man. For the record, I evaluate our GM year to year, not day to day or month to month like you do. An 82 game schedule is a long season and after the start we had, I think we need to take a few steps back. Said this over and over for a while now... But all you see is what you want to see.


So if it was someone else that said that, my apologies, I think it was a golfer maybe. So okay, my months and days still add up to years and what is exactly that I(and 90% of the rest of the board) are missing in our cruel/high expectation/harsh/non fan like criticism of our GM?
 

Habs Halifax

Loyal Habs Fan
Jul 11, 2016
68,166
25,918
East Coast
You’re saying you don’t see Bergevin sacrificing the future but talk about moves at the deadline. In order to get the pieces we need at the deadline, it will require Bergevin to sacrifice the future and the deadline is the worst time to buy because of how expensive assets are. If you were a good president, you’d be making sure Bergevin doesn’t make any panic moves with futures until you find a suitable replacement and then start a rebuild or retool with someone who has a different vision for the team. The suits with ties need to be cleaned up and if we miss the playoffs 2 out of 3 years, it’s unacceptable that they get another chance. The current club makeup is a mess right now, a lot of it has to do with management. You need to accept the truth on that. The longer most of these guys stay employed, the greater chance they have to make things worse.

It's an interested situation and I thought about it a lot. I think Bergevin has not mortgaged our future up until this point but with the pressure to build a cup contender after 6 years, what will he do from here till trade deadline? I hope to god Molson is reviewing all major moves and I suspect he has and is. Not overlay worried about desperate moves... but I am interested to see what we do from now till trade deadline.

Bergevin needs guts and if he trades Patch for solid futures, he will gain some respect back with some. Still a long ways to go but that is the right move and most of our fan base is on the same page with this. How often does this happen?
 

NotProkofievian

Registered User
Nov 29, 2011
24,476
24,599
Listen, I understand why you think we can do better if we fire Bergevin because of your own set of standards and evaluations. I don't hold this against you either. However, you have to realize that others have the right to choose to be patient just as much as you with not wanting to waste any more time with Bergevin.

If we are going to fire Bergevin, I would wait till the off season. That's when there are a lot of GM's available. It this happens, I am more interested in who Molson hires as a president as I don't believe his is qualified to search and hire our next GM.

Be Careful with what you wish for.

You said ''if I was president right now and you showed me a more proven guy that was available, I would fire him.'' I gave you a name. We could hire that jabroni today. But you don't respond to this. Why even ask for the name?

Of course you have the right to be patient. Do you see me hunting down @S Bah and forcing him to change his mind? f*** no. I take issue with you because you have the temerity to make the argument that we should be patient in the face of all the evidence. If you want to make an argument, it either stands or it doesn't.
 

nhlfan9191

Registered User
Aug 4, 2010
19,585
17,344
So if it was someone else that said that, my apologies, I think it was a golfer maybe. So okay, my months and days still add up to years and what is exactly that I(and 90% of the rest of the board) are missing in our cruel/high expectation/harsh/non fan like criticism of our GM?

ToLegit is Golfer. He changed up his username.
 

NotProkofievian

Registered User
Nov 29, 2011
24,476
24,599
Bonafide eh? I said that?

The point was comparing 2008-2011 vs 2012-2017 with the Habs and then looking at how this compares to the rest of the league. But hey, how about you keep telling us that McCarron, DLR, and Scherbak won't be NHL players just like people said that Hudon, Lehkonen, and Mete would not be. You have some pretty hard core evidence working for you here I tell you. It erases everything I presented right?

Bonafide just means ''authentic or true.'' You listed them as NHLers. Are they fake NHLers according to you?
 

nhlfan9191

Registered User
Aug 4, 2010
19,585
17,344
It's an interested situation and I thought about it a lot. I think Bergevin has not mortgaged our future up until this point but with the pressure to build a cup contender after 6 years, what will he do from here till trade deadline? I hope to god Molson is reviewing all major moves and I suspect he has and is. Not overlay worried about desperate moves... but I am interested to see what we do from now till trade deadline.

Bergevin needs guts and if he trades Patch for solid futures, he will gain some respect back with some. Still a long ways to go but that is the right move and most of our fan base is on the same page with this. How often does this happen?

If he was on year 2 or 3, it would be different. After this many years, people have seen enough to make a fair personal accessment on him. If he gets a good return for Pacioretty, I’ll feel more relief then anything. It wouldn’t be enough to forget everything else or make me feel comfortable with him getting another chance to build this team threw another retool or rebuild.
 

Habs Halifax

Loyal Habs Fan
Jul 11, 2016
68,166
25,918
East Coast
True, Price was awfull at the beginning of the season, went 3-7-1, if he was only decent during this stretch we probably had 3 more wins, wich mean we would be 16-10-3 unstead of 13-13-3......only 2 points behind the Mighty Leafs

Here are my concerns about this year...
- Barely miss the playoffs.
- Barely make the playoffs and lose in the 1st round
- Barely make the playoffs and lose to the Leafs in the 1st round

Other than Tavares, I just don't see us going on a deep playoff run with our roster.
 

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,255
27,464
Ottawa
Dean Lombardi. Baddabing baddaboom.



I have posted at length explaining why I don't see BriseBois as necessarily being some kind of saviour. Even @417 and I saw eye to eye on this. Dogs were living with cats. It was an unprecedented example of hfboards harmony.

Is there a situation dire enough in the entire NHL that you couldn't make the bolded statement about? It seems that you'd just have to change the magnitude of the moves. If this is your standard for keeping Bergevin (that thins could look very different in a year) you'd literally have to keep just about anyone. That's a problem, obviously. I just have higher standards than you do.
I'm really not all that difficult to get along with...I get along harmoniously with the majority here. :)

Also, if I thought the Habs could get Dean Lombardi as GM...I'd want Bergevin canned yesterday.
 
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Habs Halifax

Loyal Habs Fan
Jul 11, 2016
68,166
25,918
East Coast
If he was on year 2 or 3, it would be different. After this many years, people have seen enough to make a fair personal accessment on him. If he gets a good return for Pacioretty, I’ll feel more relief then anything. It wouldn’t be enough to forget everything else or make me feel comfortable with him getting another chance to build this team threw another retool or rebuild.

I don't agree with a 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 year time line as I choose to evaluate year to year. So with your standards, you are willing to be patient for 2-3 years but not 5-7 years? There is no time formula for success to build a cup contender as far as I know.

I understand the disconnect with our GM and Molson can't ignore this. However, I still choose to remain patient a bit longer.
 

S Bah

Registered User
Nov 7, 2010
9,126
564
victoria bc
You said ''if I was president right now and you showed me a more proven guy that was available, I would fire him.'' I gave you a name. We could hire that jabroni today. But you don't respond to this. Why even ask for the name?

Of course you have the right to be patient. Do you see me hunting down @S Bah and forcing him to change his mind? **** no. I take issue with you because you have the temerity to make the argument that we should be patient in the face of all the evidence. If you want to make an argument, it either stands or it doesn't.

Good Luck trying to change my mind about the work Bergevin has done, bringing the Habs back into the type of organization from top to bottom that gets stronger each season. A very tough job(NHL GM's.) when one considers the competition is fierce, every GM has to work 24/7 as does his support staff.(It's not easy like armchair GM's seem to think, honestly that's business in every field of endeavor, being the Boss isn't a bowl full of ripe cherries all day long!!!...):santa::newyear::santa: Merry Christmas Habs fans!!!...:xsign::xtree:
 

Habs Halifax

Loyal Habs Fan
Jul 11, 2016
68,166
25,918
East Coast
You said ''if I was president right now and you showed me a more proven guy that was available, I would fire him.'' I gave you a name. We could hire that jabroni today. But you don't respond to this. Why even ask for the name?

Not sure Lombardi is an upgrade on Bergevin to be honest. Lombardi comes in with the expectations of making moves because the previous guy didn't... he likely causes more damage similar to the Oilers GM. Now is not the right time to make this move. Maybe in the off season depending on how the rest of the season goes. If Bergevin gets fired, you can let me know I was wrong and insist at that point the next guy will take us to the promise land. In a few years from that, I will let you know you were wrong. See how this is a pointless game?
 

Habs Halifax

Loyal Habs Fan
Jul 11, 2016
68,166
25,918
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So indeed they are ''Bonafide'' NHLers. Not sure what your problem was.

I don't have a problem with the data I presented, you do. But I do appreciate you checking my work and letting me know about Point (think it was you). I did make a mistake on this. However, I do not appreciate you trying to twist this against me on several posts though. But hey, that's what you do so I'm use to it by now ;)
 

teamfirst

Registered User
Oct 28, 2016
3,452
2,072
Here are my concerns about this year...
- Barely miss the playoffs.
- Barely make the playoffs and lose in the 1st round
- Barely make the playoffs and lose to the Leafs in the 1st round

Other than Tavares, I just don't see us going on a deep playoff run with our roster.


True again, but i stated that before and i'll say it again, i'll choose the excitement of NHL playoffs including my team in it over any draft picks, altho i can understand that others may see that differently
 

nhlfan9191

Registered User
Aug 4, 2010
19,585
17,344
I don't agree with a 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 year time line as I choose to evaluate year to year. So with your standards, you are willing to be patient for 2-3 years but not 5-7 years? There is no time formula for success to build a cup contender as far as I know.

I understand the disconnect with our GM and Molson can't ignore this. However, I still choose to remain patient a bit longer.

No I’m saying you can only give a guy the benefit of doubt for so long. And if you’re evaluating him year to year, you should be grading him incredibly low the last two seasons. They were very telling of the direction he wants to go, and that’s continue to spin in circles and hope to get lucky. This philosophy of signing a goalie to a monster contract, aquire and sign a bunch of stay at home defenceman, aquire and sign grinders, and hope the forwards scrape by scoring two goals a game is a joke. It’s why I don’t want him around anymore. He took a once speedy team and turned it into a team full of slugs. Horrible entertainment value with little results.
 
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