Out of town thread: Where the grass is ALWAYS greener!

[Habs Halifax]

You haven’t refuted my point, nothing between those years handicapped MB. In fact he benefited greatly from 2007-2011 in that he inherited two bonafide starts and excellent 2nd line leader in Gallagher. Not to mention he had eller as well, along with Beaulieu, Pateryn, Tinordi, Bournival, Leblanc and Nygren who while not blue chip prospects were good prospects nonetheless. Only with hinsight did they not pan out, but they had value when MB arrived and were drafted players between 2007-2011 which compared to the list I provided is right around league average.

When you add to the fact the top 3 pick he inherited, along with a boat load of 2nd round picks, Price, Young Plekanec, and Markov, MB had more than ample opportunity and resources to make the club better than what it was.

Who's not being reasonable here? Me by acknowledging the 2007 draft was one of the best? Or you by not acknowledging the 2008-2011 draft years was the worse all time?

 

[Price is Wright]

ROR was traded for futures. Thinking you are going to get a top 2 proven center for a 30 goal winger is not reasonable.

It is when you recall that Colorado wasn't thought of a downtrending team back then and they SETTLED on futures. They wanted more and couldn't get it. They took the Buffalo deal because Roy, who never wanted ROR traded, convinced Sakic he could at least make Grigorenko a top six forward. If Montreal offered Pacioretty, it's a different story. They can still compete.

We drafted Galchenyuk as our #1C and he has not become this player.

Which is Bergevin's fault. Every other team in the league gets a high drafted centre and treats him like one. They give him every chance to succeed. Montreal did the opposite. Bergevin did nothing to stop his coach constantly playing Galchenyuk on the wing in favour of Desharnais. He didn't even stop him playing a veteran like Briere on the wing. That's on Bergevin. Nobody else.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Stop playing around with your own words, four top 50 picks implies and sounds better and you know it.

So now you are saying we get one top 50 pick and five top 100 picks. At least you are getting it closer to right as it really is.

It will do the Rockets well, as for the Habs ...

You are missing the point big time. All you are focused at is trying to say I am exaggerating a 10 span spot in drafting. Come on man! Seriously? My point was to compare this to the 2008-2011 draft and how we almost match it in our next draft. Open your eyes.

 

[The Great Weal]

BS! I have studded the draft in depth and you are way off the rails with your attempts to say 4 top 50 picks and 6 top 100 picks is no big deal.

Ducks (2008-2011)
- 32 total picks
- 19 top 100 picks
- 12 top 50 picks
- 8 NHL Player (Top 9F or Top 4D)
- 12 NHL players (in total)

Habs (2008-2011)
- 25 total picks
- 8 top 100 picks
- 3 top 50 picks
- 1 NHL Player (Top 9F or Top 4D)
- 2 NHL players (in total)

And you wonder why the Ducks are able to draft and develop better than us eh? Open your eyes!

Weren't you going to compare the ducks drafting since 2012 onwards to the habs? And you literally just admitted that ducks can draft and develop better than us. If the chart you were going to make is anything similar to the bolts one don't bother. It's a joke to classify Point as an NHLer along with mccarron and DLR while lekhonen is considered top 6.

 

[swimmer77]

Habs develop centers as well as they do d-men.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It is when you recall that Colorado wasn't thought of a downtrending team back then and they SETTLED on futures. They wanted more and couldn't get it. They took the Buffalo deal because Roy, who never wanted ROR traded, convinced Sakic he could at least make Grigorenko a top six forward. If Montreal offered Pacioretty, it's a different story. They can still compete.

Which is Bergevin's fault. Every other team in the league gets a high drafted centre and treats him like one. They give him every chance to succeed. Montreal did the opposite. Bergevin did nothing to stop his coach constantly playing Galchenyuk on the wing in favour of Desharnais. He didn't even stop him playing a veteran like Briere on the wing. That's on Bergevin. Nobody else.

- 60 points center (ROR) for a 60 points winger (Patch). Yeah, Sakic would be all over this. Evaluating our GM on hindsight standards and what trades you dream up is ridiculous IMO. You don't think other teams come into the mix if they can swap a proven winger for a proven center 3 years younger? The prized piece of that deal was Zadorov and the 1st, not Girgorenko. It was 3 years since Grigorenko was drafted and he already was considered a disappointment. Grig was an add on.

- It don't mater if Galchenyuk played wing or center since 2012. He is who he is and it was not a good year to find a center with a 3rd overall pick.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Weren't you going to compare the ducks drafting since 2012 onwards to the habs? And you literally just admitted that ducks can draft and develop better than us. If the chart you were going to make is anything similar to the bolts one don't bother. It's a joke to classify Point as an NHLer along with mccarron and DLR while lekhonen is considered top 6.

OMG.

- I did. Go look at page 23 of the Bergevin thread.

- Point was a mistake. He should of been green (not blue). 3rd time I am saying this now.

- McCarron and DLR are NHL players. If you don't think this, you are not debating in good faith.

 

[SquiddFX]

And it goes over your head again. Simple form for you...

- I already acknowledged that the 2007 draft was one of the best we had. You not telling any one of us anything we already don't know.

- You fail to realize how bad a 4 year span is and how this has ripple effects. It's the worse you will see and I asked you several times to show me a team that has had 4 year span like this?

- It's a apples to apples comparison under the same time line for all teams. It's the last 10 years of drafting (2008-2017). I did not include the 2007 draft yes. Because it is about showing people how bad the 4 year span was afterwards.

How you can't see this is delusional.

And again, the point goes over your head.

Your comparison doesn't take into account of different variables like development systems or personnel or what they look for in draftees. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Not to mention most Habs prospects drafted in that time frame were involved in the MB system.

How you can't see this is delusional.

 

[NotProkofievian]

And it goes over your head again. Simple form for you...

...

How you can't see this is delusional.

You mentioned me attacking other posters. Interesting.

 

[The Great Weal]

OMG.

- I did. Go look at page 23 of the Bergevin thread.

- Point was a mistake. He should of been green (not blue). 3rd time I am saying this now.

- McCarron and DLR are NHL players. If you don't think this, you are not debating in good faith.

If you classify those guys as NHLers you have to do the same for Deangelo and Erne. Scherbak isn't an NHLer, he barely played any games.

 

[Price is Wright]

- 60 points center (ROR) for a 60 points winger (Patch).

ROR achieved 60 points once in his career at that point. Once.

At the time of the trade their 2014-15 point totals would have been separated by 20 goals and 12 points.

That doesn't even go into Pacioretty's sweetheart contract and the fact ROR was getting traded because he wanted too much money.

Yes, Zadarov was the prize. As would be Pacioretty.

The point is that of course Bergevin didn't have anything to trade when the only guy he wanted to trade was Subban.

 

[Habs Halifax]

And again, the point goes over your head.

Your comparison doesn't take into account of different variables like development systems or personnel or what they look for in draftees. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Not to mention most Habs prospects drafted in that time frame were involved in the MB system.

How you can't see this is delusional.

BS. It clearly shows a apples to apples comparison against all other NHL teams under the same exact time line. You are bing disingenuous twisting the point. Not cool

 

[SquiddFX]

BS. It clearly shows a apples to apples comparison against all other NHL teams under the same exact time line. You are bing disingenuous twisting the point. Not cool

I'm not twisting anything. Teams don't draft the same. They don't scout the same. They don't develop the same. So it's not an apples to apples comparison. Plus guys like Tinordi and Beaulieu developped through the MB system. That is a fact.

 

[Habs Halifax]

If you classify those guys as NHLers you have to do the same for Deangelo and Erne. Scherbak isn't an NHLer, he barely played any games.

- Yes, there is a lot of unknowns from the 2013-2017 drafts because it's too early. These same set of standards can be applied to pretty much every single NHL team.

- Yes, I may have overlooked some players on other teams due to not spending enough time on each player vs what I know about the Habs.

The whole purpose of this was to compare the 2008-2011 years vs the rest of the league and then I continued this from 2012-2017. We are doing much better from 2012-2017 when you compare this to the rest of the league.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I'm not twisting anything. Teams don't draft the same. They don't scout the same. They don't develop the same. So it's not an apples to apples comparison. Plus guys like Tinordi and Beaulieu developped through the MB system. That is a fact.

This whole lack of drafting and developing is propaganda. We are not the only team that had guys like Tinordi, Beaulieu, and Leblanc become disappointments. The biggest issue is lack of depth and we did not have many picks to develop. The data I show you shows you a typical trend. Teams that are considered to have a great young core today are the teams at the top of the list I provide. Why? Because of several factors but some key ones are ... # of picks, # of top 10 picks, and # or top 100 picks. There are exceptions (Pens who are living on the 2003-2007 draft years still), but ignoring the trends and how is it tied to what I am saying is delusional.

 

[Habs Halifax]

ROR achieved 60 points once in his career at that point. Once.

At the time of the trade their 2014-15 point totals would have been separated by 20 goals and 12 points.

That doesn't even go into Pacioretty's sweetheart contract and the fact ROR was getting traded because he wanted too much money.

Yes, Zadarov was the prize. As would be Pacioretty.

The point is that of course Bergevin didn't have anything to trade when the only guy he wanted to trade was Subban.

- ROR was traded in the summer of 2015 I believe. He had seasons of 55, 20/29, 64, 55 pts at that stage and he was age 24.

- Patch was age 27 and had seasons of 65, 39/44, 69, 67 points.

Insisting that our GM should of traded Patch for ROR and the Avs would of taken this deal is hindsight evaluation and you are dreaming. I just don't see the Avs making that trade for a winger and getting 3 years older in the process.

Go post this on the main board and see how far you get with Avs fans about that hindsight trade.

 

[NotProkofievian]

If you disregard every great pick made by the previous brass, Bergevin had nothing to work with. The next GM will inherit all these great NHLers that God Emperor Bergevin has selected like Jacob de la Rose and Michael McCarron. They'll be soooo much better off than he was.

 

[Wats]

William Karlsson might be among the biggest steals in expansion history. Young two way top 6 C right off the bat.

Not seeing what your point is. Bergevin DID try to sign Markov and he DID have an open offer for him in the summer. If Markov had wanted to play in Montreal, he'd be in Montreal unless you're saying Bergevin was going to rescind the offer if Markov accepted it.

My comment is to you suggesting the Olympics had some sort of implication on the contract negotiation. I'm not really sure what your point is with your replies, but mine is he went to KHL after Montreal refused him. There's nothing for him to regret. Bergevin may have tried to sign him at some point but at the end of the day, he didn't want to sign him in the summer when the time came during the negotiation. Markov didn't want to play for another NHL team so went back to Russia.

But he did reveal one number: That his contract demand dropped from two years to a one-year deal during the negotiation with GM Marc Bergevin – Markov represented himself in the talks – but that the Canadiens didn’t want to meet those terms either, despite over $8 million in cap space.
“I was ready to stay in Montreal. I was ready to sign one-year deal. But it didn’t work,” he said.
...
But it was an easy call to play in the KHL after the Canadiens’ opportunity disappeared.
“I couldn’t see myself with another NHL team,” he said, although Markov added he had a new options.

Andrei Markov says Montreal rejected one-year deal, heads to KHL

 

[NotProkofievian]

What's your obsession with DLR and McCarron? They are decent future NHL players but not part of our top 6 core. Why does every pick have to be a top 6F or top 4D player? What's funny is how you judge me on being unreasonable when you need to take a look in the mirror at the way you evaluate.

Do I have to ''open [my] eyes'' when I look in the mirror? Maybe you should go call some more posters delusional, imply that they're stupid, and then cry about being attacked. That's always fun.

I bring up these NHLers because you list them as just that: NHLers. You base your entire, latest argument on NHL games, and number of ''NHLers.'' I'm pointing out that not all NHLers or NHL games are equal, as I've done before. I'm just providing the necessary context that a lot of these NHL games just don't matter very much. Replacement level at best.

 

[Sterling Archer]

My comment is to you suggesting the Olympics had some sort of implication on the contract negotiation. I'm not really sure what your point is with your replies, but mine is he went to KHL after Montreal refused him. There's nothing for him to regret. Bergevin may have tried to sign him at some point but at the end of the day, he didn't want to sign him in the summer when the time came during the negotiation. Markov didn't want to play for another NHL team so went back to Russia.

Andrei Markov says Montreal rejected one-year deal, heads to KHL

After the Canadiens wouldn’t meet his contract demands, the free agent announced he would not be back with the franchise with whom he’s played his entire NHL career, and that he was headed to the KHL.

It's not mutually exclusive as I'm sure everything played a part. Markov was keen to join the National team after he decided to go to KHL. I can't imagine it didn't cross his mind and wasn't part of his decision to go back to the KHL such as other players who stayed there hoping to play in the Olympics where NHL players wouldn't participate and greatly enhance Russia's chance of winning a gold.


Also, you're assertion that Bergevin didn't want to sign Markov is completely false. He did in fact try to sign him. He just didn't want him at 2 years for $12MM or 1 year for the apparent amount of $6MM that Markov wanted. Just because he didn't bend over and accept Markov's offer doesn't mean he didn't want him. He wanted him at a price more commensurate with what a 39 y.o. D is worth and still have some cap to potentially sign a player to get more offence. I'm not sure why all this is Bergevin's fault when Markov himself is saying “To make a deal, it always takes two people. I don’t want to go through the numbers. It is what it is right now,” Markov said. Why does zero fault fall on Markov and 100% fall on Bergevin??

 

[Habs Halifax]

Do I have to ''open [my] eyes'' when I look in the mirror? Maybe you should go call some more posters delusional, imply that they're stupid, and then cry about being attacked. That's always fun.

I bring up these NHLers because you list them as just that: NHLers. You base your entire, latest argument on NHL games, and number of ''NHLers.'' I'm pointing out that not all NHLers or NHL games are equal, as I've done before. I'm just providing the necessary context that a lot of these NHL games just don't matter very much. Replacement level at best.

My apologizes if you think Delusional = Stupid. That is not the intent. I am calling you delusional by not being able to see the trends and evidence I present you. I am also giving you credit by saying open your eyes because I know your smart enough to see what I am trying to say . For the record, I do find it disingenuous to attack what I am saying and the evidence I continue to present to support what I am saying... Some of the attacks I can take, some are uncalled for due to not being able to debate in good faith.

McCarron and DLR are somewhat disappointments but I don't recall them being projected to be top 6 players at the time of being drafted. I do believe they are NHL players today or they will be very soon. Not sure what the problem is with that.

 

[Kriss E]

Then let's trade those seconds for a player like Shaw, should hear no complaints right?

Ya sure, because nothing to be excited about means let's make a stupid trade..

 

[Kriss E]

Subban was taken at the 43rd pick. Just saying

That would explain why you seem completely unaware of how drafting works.

If we were cup contenders then I would agree and say it doesn't help us in the next season or two. However, we are not cup contenders and we are not likely going to be able to find our missing pieces through free agency and trades (been there done that for a while now). You also fail to acknowledge that our age 25 and under core is solid and we can add to it in the next draft.

Funny. I have been telling this to you for quite some time now, but hey, you wanted to ''wait and see''. Welcome to the party.
As for our under 25 core, there is nothing solid about it. We have Drouin and Galchenyuk. That's it. Essentially, both are top 6 players. Wow, so solid. It is pretty f***ing funny to read you write that because in another post you said that ''Price, Patches, PK, Galch, Plek, Markov, Gallagher(left him out)'' into a cup contender wasn't happening, but apparently ''Galch (who plenty want traded) and Drouin'' are a solid core.
You are so all over the place.

Saying that a potential of 4 top 50 picks, 6 top 100 picks in the next draft Absolutely means nothing is BS and you know it!

What is BS is your belief that having 3 picks in the late 2nd round means the slightest f***ing thing at this point in time. It means nothing man, they are just average assets at this point.

But hey, it's okay, I don't blame you. You have to try to find something to be excited about when the GM of this team is a f***ing bozo and has no clue about what he is doing.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Ya sure, because nothing to be excited about means let's make a stupid trade..

If you're not excited about having second round picks, you certainly shouldn't be upset about trading them away.

 

[Kriss E]

If you're not excited about having second round picks, you certainly shouldn't be upset about trading them away.

I don't have a problem trading them away if it means getting something good in return.
Getting a 3rd line plug...no thanks.
Not exactly sure how you equate ''not excited'' to ''let's get rid of them for a 3rd liner''. That is some kind of reach.