Ottawa Senators Team Toughness

[RAFI BOMB]

We do need a heavier game on the forecheck for sure,as well as some grit on the blueline...Anybody saying we dont is lying

Many of the the teams remaining in the playoffs have a number of bigger and physical players up front and on the back end. It is part of what makes a team succesful.

There are a number of free agents we could bring in to help us play a heavier game. It would also help given the fact that we are a budget team and we can afford players that can bring that element.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

I agree with FolignoQuantumLeap's version of toughness. Being able to play through 82+ games and withstand injury is enough. This league is moving away from the old school version of toughness. You don't even need size anymore, that's another anachronism. What's needed are guys that a skilled, speedy/fast, can carry the puck, can pass the puck and can recover the puck. Look at Vegas, Nashville, Tampa Bay. Those are the models to follow. They aren't really tough. Ottawa Senators are tough enough as is. We need more speed, more youth and a hell of a lot more talent.
And if we can trade Smith or Boro to get there, do it quickly before they fall even more behind current trends.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

I agree with FolignoQuantumLeap's version of toughness. Being able to play through 82+ games and withstand injury is enough. This league is moving away from the old school version of toughness. You don't even need size anymore, that's another anachronism. What's needed are guys that a skilled, speedy/fast, can carry the puck, can pass the puck and can recover the puck. Look at Vegas, Nashville, Tampa Bay. Those are the models to follow. They aren't really tough. Ottawa Senators are tough enough as is. We need more speed, more youth and a hell of a lot more talent.
And if we can trade Smith or Boro to get there, do it quickly before they fall even more behind current trends.

I would still prefer a mix of all 3, skill, speed, size. Have it all. This is pretty much the perfect team.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

Sure. It's obviously good if you can have a few guys that are larger. But you need to skate and execute quickly. You can't have guys whose sole purpose is hitting or fighting, that era is done or quickly leaving.

 

[Brannstorm]

I would still prefer a mix of all 3, skill, speed, size. Have it all. This is pretty much the perfect team.

Crosby, Malkin, Kessel.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

I agree with FolignoQuantumLeap's version of toughness. Being able to play through 82+ games and withstand injury is enough. This league is moving away from the old school version of toughness. You don't even need size anymore, that's another anachronism. What's needed are guys that a skilled, speedy/fast, can carry the puck, can pass the puck and can recover the puck. Look at Vegas, Nashville, Tampa Bay. Those are the models to follow. They aren't really tough. Ottawa Senators are tough enough as is. We need more speed, more youth and a hell of a lot more talent.
And if we can trade Smith or Boro to get there, do it quickly before they fall even more behind current trends.

The main thing the league is trending away from is one dimensional players. Shutdown d men need to provide offense, offensive d men need to be able to defend, first line forwards need to play a 200 foot positional game. Tough players need to be able to skate and contribute offensively and defensively.

Watching the playoffs it is clear that physical play is still very prominent and not going anywhere. I like the way the Jets and the Bruins are built and I would look to copy that model. A tough team doesn't need many fighters, it needs players that hit hard, that play with an edge, that agitate and are abrasive to play against.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

I would still prefer a mix of all 3, skill, speed, size. Have it all. This is pretty much the perfect team.

It works well if you get all in the same player like Ovechkin or Byfuglien.

 

[Cosmix]

I'm not trying to imply that physicality isn't important, because hitting and body contact is one of the best ways to separate player from puck, but the Sens are woefully underskilled in many areas, and regardless of how much physicality you have, you need skill to keep the puck. Anyone not named Hoffman, Duchene, Stone or Karlsson on the Senators roster (can probably add Chabot too) can't hold onto the puck worth a damn. So sure, the Sens can hit and take the puck away, but they lose it just as quickly, and that's due to a lack of speed and skill in 13 spots on the active roster.

I agree the Senators need more skilled players, guys who can maintain puck possession, make decent passes to make other players better, as well as score. I think Ryan qualifies as a decent player at puck possession and board work, but he is obviously overpaid. Dzingle is a decent player too but not overpaid. Pageau is used as a defensive forward and does lack offensive skill but performs a useful role, even though I would prefer a bigger player. I would keep Borowiecki too as he did play well this past season and earned his salary. I think Ceci is decent too, even with his stuttering puck handling on occasion.

So it is not 13 unskilled players. I agree that certain players need to be replaced ASAP with more speedy skilled players: Gaborik, Burrows, McCormick, Pyatt, Paajarvi, Smith, Claesson, Harpur.

 

[Cosmix]

The main thing the league is trending away from is one dimensional players. Shutdown d men need to provide offense, offensive d men need to be able to defend, first line forwards need to play a 200 foot positional game. Tough players need to be able to skate and contribute offensively and defensively.

Watching the playoffs it is clear that physical play is still very prominent and not going anywhere. I like the way the Jets and the Bruins are built and I would look to copy that model. A tough team doesn't need many fighters, it needs players that hit hard, that play with an edge, that agitate and are abrasive to play against.

Agreed, but I still like to have the nuclear option in the event that another physical team decides to target our smaller skilled players, such as Karlsson. Gretzky had Semenko to deal with those who targeted him. Not every team can have a Chara.

 

[OccidentalSoothsayer]

Top 6 F are way too soft and the worst culprits are Ryan and Stone.

 

[Cosmix]

Top 6 F are way too soft and the worst culprits are Ryan and Stone.

Duchene is a skill player, not a physical player. Same is Dzingel and Hoffman. The Senators do not have any physical tough top 6 forwards. The only physical tough Defenseman is Borowiecki. This team is soft as melted butter!

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Agreed, but I still like to have the nuclear option in the event that another physical team decides to target our smaller skilled players, such as Karlsson. Gretzky had Semenko to deal with those who targeted him. Not every team can have a Chara.

I don't know if a pure enforcer type is the solution to the team toughness issue with the Sens. I think the focus should be on adding tougher top six forwards and top 4 d. With that stated I am supportive of bringing in an intimating forward for the 13th forward role. In terms of UFA's there are 3 players that we could target for that role and would offer that nuclear option that you suggested. They are Ryan Reaves, Jordan Nolan, and Evgeny Artyukhin. Artyukhin has been playing in the KHL so I don't know if he would come back to the NHL but his contract is up.

Reaves and Nolan are decent 4th liners and Artyukhin should be good enough to play 4th line in the NHL. They are all big, mobile, hit hard and can fight. For a 13th forward role they would all be decent. But the primary focus should be on top six forwards and top four d that play with a real edge and are nasty to play against.

 

[Larionov]

https://www.tsn.ca/the-death-of-heavy-hockey-1.978609

Yost is right - heavy hockey is dead, or at least dying, and the game has turned towards skill. Look at Vegas - they don't run anyone out of the rink. They beat you with speed. The opposite of this is guys like Lucic and Bobby Ryan, struggling because they simply can't keep up with the pace of the game today.

When I look at the sad state of our bottom six scoring this season, my thought does not turn to finding big, physical forwards. It turns to finding guys who can skate and create. Zack Smith, for instance, loves to play physical, and old school hockey types love dudes like him. He also scored five goals this season and was a boat anchor for all of it.

 

[Samsquanch]

Top 6 F are way too soft and the worst culprits are Ryan and Stone.

No they aren't? I remember Bobby and his big body doing wonders for us in last year's playoffs.

Both have a mean streak in them. Yes they could both be using their bodies more often when you consider their size. I agree.

But neither of those guys make our top 6 soft. If anything they are neutral on the hard to soft scale, and are actually among our stronger forwards.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

https://www.tsn.ca/the-death-of-heavy-hockey-1.978609

Yost is right - heavy hockey is dead, or at least dying, and the game has turned towards skill. Look at Vegas - they don't run anyone out of the rink. They beat you with speed. The opposite of this is guys like Lucic and Bobby Ryan, struggling because they simply can't keep up with the pace of the game today.

When I look at the sad state of our bottom six scoring this season, my thought does not turn to finding big, physical forwards. It turns to finding guys who can skate and create. Zack Smith, for instance, loves to play physical, and old school hockey types love dudes like him. He also scored five goals this season and was a boat anchor for all of it.

Yost makes a pretty weak argument here. He kind of cherry picks information and doesn't provide much context. He talks about median hits per game but makes no mention of the mean and mode. He doesn't mention about the increasing penalties for certain kinds of dangerous hits and how that would effect the number of hits per season. He doesn't evaluate all of the factors that would have lead to a decline in performance on certain teams and instead implies that it is solely because they play "heavy hockey".

What is happening in the league is that it is becoming more competitive. There are more quality prospects available in further rounds of drafts each year. Organizations have implemented development programs which have increased the number of prospects that become NHL players. As a consequence there is an oversupply of labor. The league restricts the number of players that can be on an NHL roster which means there are a finite number of opportunities available. This has decreased the average length of career for NHL players and has pushed players down depth charts or out of the league. Additionally, in a salary cap era cheap labor is highly coveted. The rules surrounding the CBA and the rights of teams with respect to RFA/entry level contracts creates an incentive for teams to provide more opportunities to younger players. This is due to the fact that teams are able to attain a positive disparity between performance and compensation. Or in other words they get young players that put up points that would normally require millions of dollars of salary for a fraction of the price. As teams around the league have done this, it has placed competitive pressure to emulate. With an oversupply of talent/labor and a finite number of roster spots teams have had move away from specialty players and instead replace them with players with multiple dimensions to their game in order to stay competitive. The main way the league is trending is that each player must have more dimensions to their game and must be able to play a myriad of roles. Physicality and all the other elements of "heavy hockey" are still highly valuable, but the key is that a player needs much more aspects to their game then that to be given a roster spot.

The key to building a tough team in the league today is to target physical players that can also skate and have skill. Byfuglien and Ovechkin are great models of that.

Also for the record Vegas is leading the playoffs in hits with 455 in 10 games. They have almost 100 hits more than the next team. That gives a rough average of 45.5 hits per game. Vegas does a lot of things well and the team is fast, skilled and physical. That is the model the Sens need to emulate.

 

[JD1]

The main thing the league is trending away from is one dimensional players. Shutdown d men need to provide offense, offensive d men need to be able to defend, first line forwards need to play a 200 foot positional game. Tough players need to be able to skate and contribute offensively and defensively.

Watching the playoffs it is clear that physical play is still very prominent and not going anywhere. I like the way the Jets and the Bruins are built and I would look to copy that model. A tough team doesn't need many fighters, it needs players that hit hard, that play with an edge, that agitate and are abrasive to play against.

great post. spot on. but the Boston bit....TB spanked them physically (and I loved every minute of it)

 

[Dino Tkachuk]

Yost makes a pretty weak argument here. He kind of cherry picks information and doesn't provide much context. He talks about median hits per game but makes no mention of the mean and mode. He doesn't mention about the increasing penalties for certain kinds of dangerous hits and how that would effect the number of hits per season. He doesn't evaluate all of the factors that would have lead to a decline in performance on certain teams and instead implies that it is solely because they play "heavy hockey".

What is happening in the league is that it is becoming more competitive. There are more quality prospects available in further rounds of drafts each year. Organizations have implemented development programs which have increased the number of prospects that become NHL players. As a consequence there is an oversupply of labor. The league restricts the number of players that can be on an NHL roster which means there are a finite number of opportunities available. This has decreased the average length of career for NHL players and has pushed players down depth charts or out of the league. Additionally, in a salary cap era cheap labor is highly coveted. The rules surrounding the CBA and the rights of teams with respect to RFA/entry level contracts creates an incentive for teams to provide more opportunities to younger players. This is due to the fact that teams are able to attain a positive disparity between performance and compensation. Or in other words they get young players that put up points that would normally require millions of dollars of salary for a fraction of the price. As teams around the league have done this, it has placed competitive pressure to emulate. With an oversupply of talent/labor and a finite number of roster spots teams have had move away from specialty players and instead replace them with players with multiple dimensions to their game in order to stay competitive. The main way the league is trending is that each player must have more dimensions to their game and must be able to play a myriad of roles. Physicality and all the other elements of "heavy hockey" are still highly valuable, but the key is that a player needs much more aspects to their game then that to be given a roster spot.

The key to building a tough team in the league today is to target physical players that can also skate and have skill. Byfuglien and Ovechkin are great models of that.

Also for the record Vegas is leading the playoffs in hits with 455 in 10 games. They have almost 100 hits more than the next team. That gives a rough average of 45.5 hits per game. Vegas does a lot of things well and the team is fast, skilled and physical. That is the model the Sens need to emulate.

Exactly and well said. I hope Yost reads your post.

As you said, it is absolutely the death of the 1 - or even 2 - dimensional player and has nothing to do with "heavy hockey". The premise that heavy hockey=slow hockey is absolutely not true and if you iced a team of Byfuglien type players I guarantee you that smash mouth hockey would be alive and well.

 

[OccidentalSoothsayer]

No they aren't? I remember Bobby and his big body doing wonders for us in last year's playoffs.

Both have a mean streak in them. Yes they could both be using their bodies more often when you consider their size. I agree.

But neither of those guys make our top 6 soft. If anything they are neutral on the hard to soft scale, and are actually among our stronger forwards.

Ryan is the easiest player in the leauge to play against, I have seen guys knock him off the puck with a sneeze and I hate to say it but Stone cannot play through pain.

 

[Cosmix]

Ryan is the easiest player in the leauge to play against, I have seen guys knock him off the puck with a sneeze and I hate to say it but Stone cannot play through pain.

I don’t see a mean streak in any of the Senator’s forwards. I have seen Ryan hit some players but not that often and not as hard or physical as Neil used to do it.

I don’t want a one dimensional policeman type of player, but I do want a policeman with some defensive skills on the 4th Line. That type of player is required to address opponent players such as Evander Kane and Boyle who targeted Karlsson. Carkner and Neil knew what to do and when to do it. I certainly would like to see more physical players on this team as it is very soft now.

 

[Cosmix]

I agree with FolignoQuantumLeap's version of toughness. Being able to play through 82+ games and withstand injury is enough. This league is moving away from the old school version of toughness. You don't even need size anymore, that's another anachronism. What's needed are guys that a skilled, speedy/fast, can carry the puck, can pass the puck and can recover the puck. Look at Vegas, Nashville, Tampa Bay. Those are the models to follow. They aren't really tough. Ottawa Senators are tough enough as is. We need more speed, more youth and a hell of a lot more talent.
And if we can trade Smith or Boro to get there, do it quickly before they fall even more behind current trends.

You can play 82 games and avoid all physical play. That does not lead to success. It certainly does not equal team toughness.

 

[JungleBeat]

The key to building a tough team in the league today is to target physical players that can also skate and have skill. Byfuglien and Ovechkin are great models of that.

Also for the record Vegas is leading the playoffs in hits with 455 in 10 games. They have almost 100 hits more than the next team. That gives a rough average of 45.5 hits per game. Vegas does a lot of things well and the team is fast, skilled and physical. That is the model the Sens need to emulate.

Thing is, how many players are like Ovechkin and Buff? Right now on the Sens our “tough” guys have either no skill or are slow. Smith,Burrows,Boroweicki and Harpur aren’t exactly good NHL players.

 

[aragorn]

Wash & Winn are both big, heavy & tough teams IMO because they have a combination or balance of size, speed & skill. I don't think one model fits all & of course it depends on the players you have in your organization as to the type of game you are able to play. Does anyone think Ottawa could survive these playoffs given all the hitting & rough play we are seeing? Buff put out Stone one game & there was nothing anyone could do about it. What about Tom Wilson on EK?

Ottawa doesn't scare anyone & there are a number of teams with players that could easily physically dominate Ottawa & there is nothing they could do about it. And that would be how I would coach against Ottawa to be very physical on them every chance you get as Pat Quinn did against JM & beat him every time.

Whether people agree with it or not, intimidation is still part of the game & guys are constantly trying to intimidate each other. Sometimes it works over a 7 game series & sometimes it doesn't, it worked for Tanner Glass until GB put Neil back into the lineup.

I think Ottawa has enough good skilled sized players who can skate coming & could get a couple more this draft but they don't have a deterrent who can play like a Tom Wilson. I don't see anyone they have in their organization now either with that kind of skill set. Maybe they won't need it but my guess is that they may at some point again as they did with Glass. However, there biggest need right now IMO is for both Anderson & Condon to have a bounce back yr. Without good goaltending in the NHL they will not be going anywhere again.

 

[Langdon Alger]

Ryan Reaves is a free agent. Any interest?

 

[Cosmix]

Ryan Reaves is a free agent. Any interest?

Yes. I think Reaves would add some major physical play, be a policeman when required, and not be a major defensive liability.

 

[Back in Black]

SENS would look tougher without the red kiddy crested jersey's..... (just sayin')