Ottawa Senators : Darkest Hour

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MiscBrah

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Mar 16, 2012
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Yup. This. People may have hated Murray for whatever reasons, but at least he was respected by his peers, the players, the media. He talked. You listened. Dorion is like the polar opposite. Sometimes I wonder who he has tapes on to be in his position.

Nobody? He's from the area and likely came at a huge discount. He wouldn't be GM on any other team in the league.
 

JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
15,984
9,547
Since when do billionaires pull money out of their own pocket for a project like this? What happened to all the financing and lenders lining up to be a part of Lebreton that Melynk supporters were talking about a month ago? Can't have it both ways here.

the lenders will line up. did I say otherwise?

you seem pretty hell bent these days on quoting my posts looking for some kind of playing both sides scenario.
 

JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
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He's only ever been a scout. Most GMs have been a player, coach or have been around as a GM for a long time.

I doubt being a scout gets you any street cred with players.

go thru the list of GMs. There are all kinds of paths. Dorion has never earned a living outside of hockey. Idk a few years down the road it may be quite evident that the guy totally sucks. But with 20+ years under his belt in the game and ever increasing responsibility long the way....he paid his dues to get his shot. Everyone is a rookie at some point. Most flame out. Some go on to be long time GMs . One thing is very clear: there isn't a singular model that leads to success in that role. Why is Yzerman good and yet Bergervin seems to suck. Both were pros. Both did time in the Detroit organization. Yet one has been quite successful and the other not so much. There isn't a single path.
 

senswon

Quo Tendimus
Aug 1, 2007
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Kingstone
OHNO.jpg
 

lancepitlick

Registered User
Nov 20, 2016
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go thru the list of GMs. There are all kinds of paths. Dorion has never earned a living outside of hockey. Idk a few years down the road it may be quite evident that the guy totally sucks. But with 20+ years under his belt in the game and ever increasing responsibility long the way....he paid his dues to get his shot. Everyone is a rookie at some point. Most flame out. Some go on to be long time GMs . One thing is very clear: there isn't a singular model that leads to success in that role. Why is Yzerman good and yet Bergervin seems to suck. Both were pros. Both did time in the Detroit organization. Yet one has been quite successful and the other not so much. There isn't a single path.

Not saying that others beyond players/coaches can't be good at the job, just that Dorion, at this point in time, doesn't command respect from the players or likely others around the league. He may earn that over time, he may not.
 

Cat Herder

Formerly BigSensFan
Sep 21, 2006
2,599
442
Belle River,On
Those teams all have more hope than Ottawa lol. The sens are rebuilding without our first round pick and are selling assets for money. Ottawa has actually been worse than those two teams since the 12 game mark of the season with Karlsson. Its not getting any better.

we do have our 1st this year, it was top 10 protected
 

Jorge Garcia

Registered User
Dec 9, 2004
2,787
634
You're responding to the poster who desperately wants to cheer for the Quebec City Senators/Nordiques. Of course he's going to pile on with the "bad market" bull****. Pay him no mind.



As for the question OP, you should've seen how horrible our first season was. All our hopes were pinned on finishing last (not hard to do) and selecting.....Alexandre Daigle over Chris freakin' Pronger. That was a rough few years. Then the bankruptcy, and uncertainty. Losing to ****ing Toronto every playoffs with a stacked roster....
A lot of people forget that Toronto was stacked then, too. In three of the four playoff losses, the Leafs were the higher seed. It's myth-building from the Tormnto end that paints those losses as upsets.
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,288
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Victoria
Not saying that others beyond players/coaches can't be good at the job, just that Dorion, at this point in time, doesn't command respect from the players or likely others around the league. He may earn that over time, he may not.

Of course this is the complete opposite from everything we have heard, culminating in a GM of the year nomination, but hey, don't let facts get in the way of the mob.

This is a perfect example of why it's hard too take you all seriously with your panic, anger, and bitterness; so much of it is based on just pure made up crap. You're whipping each other into a frenzy, and it's really quite interesting to watch.
 

Ice-Tray

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Jan 31, 2006
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We lose next years, which we will be playing without Karlsson/Brassard/every other player we trade.

What's done is done, how about we get upset about that one if we end up terrible and don't get a couple picks back to mitigate it.

Duchene is a better NHLer than anyone that we are likely to pick regardless. We didn't throw away the pick, we secured a youngish #1 NHL centreman.

People cry overpayment because that's what's cool these days, but it was a good trade, and we have an elite player out of it from a good player and a pick/prospect.
 

BondraTime

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Nov 20, 2005
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What's done is done, how about we get upset about that one if we end up terrible and don't get a couple picks back to mitigate it.

Duchene is a better NHLer than anyone that we are likely to pick regardless. We didn't throw away the pick, we secured a youngish #1 NHL centreman.

People cry overpayment because that's what's cool these days, but it was a good trade, and we have an elite player out of it from a good player and a pick/prospect.
I said before, I like the trade getting Duchene. It was an over payment (Duchene literally may get a better return than Karlsson....), but we got a player we needed.

The day it was made, I said the only piece that stings losing is the 1st, thinking it would be in the 18-25 range. Now that the 1st we lose is likely to be a very high one, it hurts more. Especially during a rebuild. It more than stings.

Using everything we know, we are expected to be a bottom feeder next year. That's what people are rightly mad about. There is nothing, no information or reason, leading to anyone to believe the Sens not being a bottom feeder next season.

It's impossible to overlook that from any point of view. I'd love to be able to, but that's not how sports works. You can't just ignore things that don't fit with a positive outlook. I can't, at least.

I know all you care about is the right now and what you see on the ice right now with picks/prospects not being worth a worry, but as someone who wants a successful team to cheer about, I certainly do. There is a reason Ottawa is in disarray, both the fans and organisation. It's not a positive one.

Honestly, you are looking over so much to always be positive and then questioning those who are calling a spade a spade.
 
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tony d

Registered User
Jun 23, 2007
76,589
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Behind A Tree
Been a fan since 03. Things look their absolute worst right now. Hoping if Karlsson is traded it's the catalyst to get us back to where we were before this lost season started.
 

LuckyPierre

Registered User
Jul 1, 2010
1,948
589
My theory is this.

Melnyk is using Karl as a human shield.

The chatter surrounding a possible sale of the Senators franchise indicates that yes, discussions are ongoing between Melnyk and potential buyers.

Melnyk has yet to receive the offer he's asking for to cash out. In order to show that he's firm on a sale price, he's using the threat of trading Karlsson to impact negotiations.

Karlsson will not be traded at the deadline. Instead, Melnyk has instructed Dorion to listen to offers and make it look like he is willing to deal Karl imminently. The potential deal will wait until the offseason.

In the meantime, Melnyk is hinging on the potential buyer seeing the loss of Karlsson as too damaging to the viability of the franchise between now and the opening of the new arena. Melnyk is engaging in game theory to force the hand of the buyer into increasing the sale price, as well as to fast track the sale in the time frame that suits Melnyk.

My guess is that Karlsson will reconsider staying put in the event that a new ownership group comes online in time.

I think Melnyk is in too deep with debt to give a damn about Karlsson, the fanbase, or anything less than his cash out price, and he's pulling the ultimate corporate finance bully move to get what he wants.
 
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Ice-Tray

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Jan 31, 2006
16,288
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I said before, I like the trade getting Duchene. It was an over payment (Duchene literally may get a better return than Karlsson....), but we got a player we needed.

The day it was made, I said the only piece that stings losing is the 1st, thinking it would be in the 18-25 range. Now that the 1st we lose is likely to be a very high one, it hurts more. Especially during a rebuild. It more than stings.

Using everything we know, we are expected to be a bottom feeder next year. That's what people are rightly mad about. There is nothing, no information or reason, leading to anyone to believe the Sens not being a bottom feeder next season.

It's impossible to overlook that from any point of view. I'd love to be able to, but that's not how sports works. You can't just ignore things that don't fit with a positive outlook. I can't, at least.

I know all you care about is the right now and what you see on the ice right now with picks/prospects not being worth a worry, but as someone who wants a successful team to cheer about, I certainly do. There is a reason Ottawa is in disarray, fans and organisation. It's not positive.

Honestly, you are looking over so much to always be positive and then questioning those who are calling a spade a spade.

If we're speaking honestly, I think we will be better next year WITHOUT EK. I think he killed the season (along with goaltending to a degree), with his terrible attitude to go along with his recovery play. He was a full blown liability in the D zone, and as captain the team went as he did.

I think whoever replaces him will make us a better team next year than this year. Brass leaving hurts a bit, but White/Brown may give us a bump. Duchene plying like he is now going forward from the start will, be huge for us. The guys left over wanting to right the ship is going to mean that the vibe and attitude in the dressing room should be all about winning games again, and I expect GB to have a better system after a summer of planning. I think he understands that his job is on the line.

I don't think the organization is in nearly the amount of disarray that people are claiming around here. I think once EK is gone, and maybe Hoffman, the attitude in the room will be healthy again, fans with settle in a less panicky grumble, and the team will be fun to watch.

I don't just care about the now, I just don't overvalue prospects, and given what we have in the wings, I'm not worried about trading some for immediate needs or quality. We absolutely did not overpay for Duchene, I'd trade those assets in a second for what we now have. Picks are like candy around here, it's crazy. The fan reactions in here have far outstripped the situation in real life. The media has done it's job, fans are in frenzy, but it will all calm down soon, with maybe this board being out a few posters.
 

Karl Prime

Registered User
Feb 13, 2017
4,582
4,310
My theory is this.

Melnyk is using Karl as a human shield.

The chatter surrounding a possible sale of the Senators franchise indicates that yes, discussions are ongoing between Melnyk and potential buyers.

Melnyk has yet to receive the offer he's asking for to cash out. In order to show that he's firm on a sale price, he's using the threat of trading Karlsson to impact negotiations.

Karlsson will not be traded at the deadline. Instead, Melnyk has instructed Dorion to listen to offers and make it look like he is willing to deal Karl imminently. The potential deal will wait until the offseason.

In the meantime, Melnyk is hinging on the potential buyer seeing the loss of Karlsson as too damaging to the viability of the franchise between now and the opening of the new arena. Melnyk is engaging in game theory to force the hand of the buyer into increasing the sale price, as well as to fast track the sale in the time frame that suits Melnyk.

My guess is that Karlsson will reconsider staying put in the event that a new ownership group comes online in time.

I think Melnyk is in too deep with debt to give a damn about Karlsson, the fanbase, or anything less than his cash out price, and he's pulling the ultimate corporate finance bully move to get what he wants.

We can only hope.
 

LuckyPierre

Registered User
Jul 1, 2010
1,948
589
If we're speaking honestly, I think we will be better next year WITHOUT EK. I think he killed the season (along with goaltending to a degree), with his terrible attitude to go along with his recovery play. He was a full blown liability in the D zone, and as captain the team went as he did.

I think whoever replaces him will make us a better team next year than this year. Brass leaving hurts a bit, but White/Brown may give us a bump. Duchene plying like he is now going forward from the start will, be huge for us. The guys left over wanting to right the ship is going to mean that the vibe and attitude in the dressing room should be all about winning games again, and I expect GB to have a better system after a summer of planning. I think he understands that his job is on the line.

I don't think the organization is in nearly the amount of disarray that people are claiming around here. I think once EK is gone, and maybe Hoffman, the attitude in the room will be healthy again, fans with settle in a less panicky grumble, and the team will be fun to watch.

I don't just care about the now, I just don't overvalue prospects, and given what we have in the wings, I'm not worried about trading some for immediate needs or quality. We absolutely did not overpay for Duchene, I'd trade those assets in a second for what we now have. Picks are like candy around here, it's crazy. The fan reactions in here have far outstripped the situation in real life. The media has done it's job, fans are in frenzy, but it will all calm down soon, with maybe this board being out a few posters.
EK didn't train in the offseason, and didn't have a partner this year.

Don't kid yourself. We're light years better with him. Especially if he's coming into next year fresh.
 

Canadian Time

Registered User
Mar 2, 2002
2,193
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Visit site
My theory is this.

Melnyk is using Karl as a human shield.

The chatter surrounding a possible sale of the Senators franchise indicates that yes, discussions are ongoing between Melnyk and potential buyers.

Melnyk has yet to receive the offer he's asking for to cash out. In order to show that he's firm on a sale price, he's using the threat of trading Karlsson to impact negotiations.

Karlsson will not be traded at the deadline. Instead, Melnyk has instructed Dorion to listen to offers and make it look like he is willing to deal Karl imminently. The potential deal will wait until the offseason.

In the meantime, Melnyk is hinging on the potential buyer seeing the loss of Karlsson as too damaging to the viability of the franchise between now and the opening of the new arena. Melnyk is engaging in game theory to force the hand of the buyer into increasing the sale price, as well as to fast track the sale in the time frame that suits Melnyk.

My guess is that Karlsson will reconsider staying put in the event that a new ownership group comes online in time.

I think Melnyk is in too deep with debt to give a damn about Karlsson, the fanbase, or anything less than his cash out price, and he's pulling the ultimate corporate finance bully move to get what he wants.

The creativity is outstanding, seriously well done. Unfortunately I can't buy it. While Karlsson is indeed important to the team and city, the loss of one player will not force a higher or lower bid. You'd have to be talking a difference of at least $50 million to try a ploy like that, it's just not realistic. I do agree with you about one thing, if ownership changes I could see Karlsson being convinced to stay. Alas, it won't happen, there is too much profit for Melnyk to stay, a rival offer would have to include a lot of future value, Karlsson won't move that dial.
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,288
8,100
Victoria
EK didn't train in the offseason, and didn't have a partner this year.

Don't kid yourself. We're light years better with him. Especially if he's coming into next year fresh.

We're better with last year's EK, we're a lottery team with this year's EK because not only did he suck as a player, but his attitude on the ice murdered the team. Not once did we see a captain trying to do too much, busting his ass inspire of physical limitations, gassed after doing everything he could to get a win. We saw a guy with the most amount of talent put in the least amount of effort.

Yes, we are so much better next year without that EK, and given the indications of him not wanting to play here, we were not going to get last year's EK back whether he is healthy or not.
 

BondraTime

Registered User
Nov 20, 2005
28,467
23,038
East Coast
If we're speaking honestly, I think we will be better next year WITHOUT EK. I think he killed the season (along with goaltending to a degree), with his terrible attitude to go along with his recovery play. He was a full blown liability in the D zone, and as captain the team went as he did.

I think whoever replaces him will make us a better team next year than this year. Brass leaving hurts a bit, but White/Brown may give us a bump. Duchene plying like he is now going forward from the start will, be huge for us. The guys left over wanting to right the ship is going to mean that the vibe and attitude in the dressing room should be all about winning games again, and I expect GB to have a better system after a summer of planning. I think he understands that his job is on the line.

I don't think the organization is in nearly the amount of disarray that people are claiming around here. I think once EK is gone, and maybe Hoffman, the attitude in the room will be healthy again, fans with settle in a less panicky grumble, and the team will be fun to watch.

I don't just care about the now, I just don't overvalue prospects, and given what we have in the wings, I'm not worried about trading some for immediate needs or quality. We absolutely did not overpay for Duchene, I'd trade those assets in a second for what we now have. Picks are like candy around here, it's crazy. The fan reactions in here have far outstripped the situation in real life. The media has done it's job, fans are in frenzy, but it will all calm down soon, with maybe this board being out a few posters.
I applaud the positive attitude, keep doing you.

I, in no way, see how anyone could possibly think that any guy in place of Karlsson makes us a better team next year, that is just foolish.

And believe me when I say this, Karlsson is not the only good player that doesn't want to play for us.
 

LuckyPierre

Registered User
Jul 1, 2010
1,948
589
The creativity is outstanding, seriously well done. Unfortunately I can't buy it. While Karlsson is indeed important to the team and city, the loss of one player will not force a higher or lower bid. You'd have to be talking a difference of at least $50 million to try a ploy like that, it's just not realistic. I do agree with you about one thing, if ownership changes I could see Karlsson being convinced to stay. Alas, it won't happen, there is too much profit for Melnyk to stay, a rival offer would have to include a lot of future value, Karlsson won't move that dial.
The loss of the one player is secondary to the market's reaction to the loss of the player, which in the near term would be significant enough to impact the forecasted cash flow of the team, and thus the sale price.

I'll add that I am aware of several corporate entities ready to pull the plug on their long standing support of the team should Karlsson be jettisoned out of town. Again, significant cash flow impacts will follow his trade should it happen.
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,288
8,100
Victoria
I applaud the positive attitude, keep doing you.

I, in no way, see how anyone could possibly think that any guy in place of Karlsson makes us a better team next year, that is just foolish.

He killed the team with his attitude. As everyone always likes to say around here 'as EK goes, do do the Sens' Well this year he took a dump on the room and floated around without a care in the world, an so went our team.

Yeah, I think with Stone, Boro, Duchene as leaders we'll see a return to the hardworking team that we're used to and we'll be better in the standings than we were this year.

I have not been quiet about my disgust towards our captain's play this season, it just makes a whole lot more sense now, and no less disturbing for a pro.
 
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