Confirmed with Link: Ottawa "fans" believe the hype and go over the edge.

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Ice-Tray

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Bob said consistently that he didn't think Karlsson would be traded by the deadline. That was the only opinion he really gave, the rest was reporting his sources' comments about interest and value.

Look, Bob played his part in whipping up EK trade frenzy along with the rest of the panel. That's their job, they do it purposely every year. There was no first hand info being generated, only second and third hand stuff that was reported non stop. This is what they do, and there is no surprise there, but nor should there be any surprise that there was some backlash on Bob.

He made it very clear that he thought it was best for both PD and EK if a deal got done sooner than later, then after when both parties speak we hear that this wasn't the case at all. That was one example of an opinion shared that provoked irritation from fans. Hi weak semantics argument is another put off given that the difference between shopping a player and listening to offers is giant, especially when concerning this fanbase and EK.

There is no need to defend Bob Mac here, he ventured away a bit from how his reputation was built and got a taste of some backlash. His defensive rant was embarrassing to read, but we'll all move on.
 

Agent Zub

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Look, Bob played his part in whipping up EK trade frenzy along with the rest of the panel. That's their job, they do it purposely every year. There was no first hand info being generated, only second and third hand stuff that was reported non stop. This is what they do, and there is no surprise there, but nor should there be any surprise that there was some backlash on Bob.

He made it very clear that he thought it was best for both PD and EK if a deal got done sooner than later, then after when both parties speak we hear that this wasn't the case at all. That was one example of an opinion shared that provoked irritation from fans. Hi weak semantics argument is another put off given that the difference between shopping a player and listening to offers is giant, especially when concerning this fanbase and EK.

There is no need to defend Bob Mac here, he ventured away a bit from how his reputation was built and got a taste of some backlash. His defensive rant was embarrassing to read, but we'll all move on.


Lol so what are you saying? That Dorion wasn't negotiating offers for Karlsson?

Do you honestly believe that?
 

4thlineduster

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The naivety of fans on this board blows me away. So because both Karlsson and Dorion said they didn’t want a trade to happen that’s unequivocally how it was?

Karlsson can’t move until the season is done now so what are they supposed to say? At this point Dorion isn’t going to say he tried to move him with no success and Karlsson isn’t going to say he wanted out and hates the organization. They are professionals and will respond as such.

MacKenzie is well respected and it wasn’t just him fueling speculation. When every major hockey analyst etc. is saying Karlsson was being shopped........well in my experience, where there’s smoke there’s fire.
 
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L'Aveuglette

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The naivety of fans on this board blows me away. So because both Karlsson and Dorion said they didn’t want a trade to happen that’s unequivocally how it was?

Karlsson can’t move until the season is done now so what are they supposed to say? At this point Dorion isn’t going to say he tried to move him with no success and Karlsson isn’t going to say he wanted out and hates the organization. They are professionals and will respond as such.

MacKenzie is well respected and it wasn’t just him fueling speculation. When every major hockey analyst etc. is saying Karlsson was being shopped........well in my experience, where there’s smoke there’s fire.

It's the same 5 posters who refuse to open their eyes. The vast majority can see the forest for the trees.
 
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Samsquanch

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I really don't understand why people are upset that Dorion was seeing what the return on Karlsson would be?

That's not what I was upset about, personally..

I was very angry because it seemed like a rift happened between EK and management, and that the bridge was burned on them ever reaching a long term deal together.

At least thats what the media would have you believe leading up to the deadline. And that's what I was furious about myself, reading the opinions of these so called insiders who sounded very sure that both parties had intentions to move on.

When you consider the way this season has gone, it seems like proper due diligence by seeing what EK could fetch when he's at his absolute peak in terms of trade value.

The word is they were never close to a deal, so who really gives a crap if there was a lot of talk going on in the back ground? It really feels like people are all riled up for the wrong reasons.

I think this unintentionally humbled Karlsson a bit. He didn't sound like the extremely self confident and cocky guy that he normally is after this ordeal. I think he showed his hand a bit, and that his heart really is with the team and staying in the city.
 

thinkwild

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Im still in shock he didn’t get traded. I thought for sure he was a goner. When it was announced that he could be traded, I would’ve bet that more than 50% of hockey fans would say that someone would put an offer forward that could do it. I mean we’re talkin about Karlsson! But no one did. That is really surprising to me. I guess I shouldn’t be so amazed that Oduya got no offers either then.

Saying there’s a 50/50 chance is saying I don’t know it could it could go either way. That seems a pretty accurate assessment at that time to me. I don’t see what happened since that would make us now say, ha they were so wrong.

I guess its also possible that Melnyk is crazy like a fox. The current tone of negotiations had us not knowing what EK wanted and fearing the worst as he has set the tone all around what is the highest fair salary. Now we know he wants to stay here, might think even about making some concession to do that as it is meaningful to him, the tone has changed.

Or Melnyk could just be an idiot, Hard to say, 50/50 really.
 

Ice-Tray

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"Same 5 posters", oh l'Avy I see your confidence is back after getting slapped for your misogynist post the other day, good on you!

When folks all take their arguments to the lowest common denominator and make it 'us vs them' thing, this is what you get. A bunch morons tripping over themselves to pile on; cute.

Buddy suggest that we either believe the insiders, or it's all made up. I suggested that a variety of perspectives could be found between those things, or encompassing both.

I went on to suggest, in response to another poster, that Bob said more than just "he didn't think a trade would get done by the deadline" and gave the example of how he said that PD and EK would have been better off if the trade happened quickly. EK said he didn't want to get traded, thus a trade not being best for him, and accepting a lesser value trade for expediency sake is not the best case for the team either. That potentially being a source for fans throwing shade at Bob after whipping everyone up.

In response I am called: naive, and mocked for suggesting such a crazy moderate position. The reality is that the loud voices only want to hear themselves insulting the owner or manager at every turn, worst case scenarios and conspiracy theories rule, and most have lost any connection with common sense.
 

JD1

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"Same 5 posters", oh l'Avy I see your confidence is back after getting slapped for your misogynist post the other day, good on you!

When folks all take their arguments to the lowest common denominator and make it 'us vs them' thing, this is what you get. A bunch morons tripping over themselves to pile on; cute.

Buddy suggest that we either believe the insiders, or it's all made up. I suggested that a variety of perspectives could be found between those things, or encompassing both.

I went on to suggest, in response to another poster, that Bob said more than just "he didn't think a trade would get done by the deadline" and gave the example of how he said that PD and EK would have been better off if the trade happened quickly. EK said he didn't want to get traded, thus a trade not being best for him, and accepting a lesser value trade for expediency sake is not the best case for the team either. That potentially being a source for fans throwing shade at Bob after whipping everyone up.

In response I am called: naive, and mocked for suggesting such a crazy moderate position. The reality is that the loud voices only want to hear themselves insulting the owner or manager at every turn, worst case scenarios and conspiracy theories rule, and most have lost any connection with common sense.

a fair bit of it goes beyond a lack of common sense. There's a narrative here amongst several high volume posters (who all seem to egg one another on) that every single detail about this franchise is a nothing more than a laughing matter

Phaneuf was recently traded and expressed enjoying playing here. Ryan,Smith and most importantly EK expressed this week that they are happy they weren't moved because they want to be here. Stone says he wants to be here. Duchene says he wants to be here.

yet the narrative amongst this group is that this place is a laughing stock, everyone wants to run for the hills and no one will ever sign here.

Unfortunately when this type of mindset takes over an internet forum it's been my experience that it drives away people that think otherwise and that is happening here.
 

Tnuoc Alucard

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In response I am called: naive, and mocked for suggesting such a crazy moderate position. The reality is that the loud voices only want to hear themselves insulting the owner or manager at every turn, worst case scenarios and conspiracy theories rule, and most have lost any connection with common sense.

You could have been called "vermin" as I was. When name calling starts, it reveals more about the name caller than it does anyone else.
 

Handles1919

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Jul 27, 2016
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"Same 5 posters", oh l'Avy I see your confidence is back after getting slapped for your misogynist post the other day, good on you!

When folks all take their arguments to the lowest common denominator and make it 'us vs them' thing, this is what you get. A bunch morons tripping over themselves to pile on; cute.

Buddy suggest that we either believe the insiders, or it's all made up. I suggested that a variety of perspectives could be found between those things, or encompassing both.

I went on to suggest, in response to another poster, that Bob said more than just "he didn't think a trade would get done by the deadline" and gave the example of how he said that PD and EK would have been better off if the trade happened quickly. EK said he didn't want to get traded, thus a trade not being best for him, and accepting a lesser value trade for expediency sake is not the best case for the team either. That potentially being a source for fans throwing shade at Bob after whipping everyone up.

In response I am called: naive, and mocked for suggesting such a crazy moderate position. The reality is that the loud voices only want to hear themselves insulting the owner or manager at every turn, worst case scenarios and conspiracy theories rule, and most have lost any connection with common sense.
the same post you say people call you nieve you call everyone a bunch of morons lol. high horse again
 

NorthCoast

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May 1, 2017
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a fair bit of it goes beyond a lack of common sense. There's a narrative here amongst several high volume posters (who all seem to egg one another on) that every single detail about this franchise is a nothing more than a laughing matter

Phaneuf was recently traded and expressed enjoying playing here. Ryan,Smith and most importantly EK expressed this week that they are happy they weren't moved because they want to be here. Stone says he wants to be here. Duchene says he wants to be here.

yet the narrative amongst this group is that this place is a laughing stock, everyone wants to run for the hills and no one will ever sign here.

Unfortunately when this type of mindset takes over an internet forum it's been my experience that it drives away people that think otherwise and that is happening here.

Whether it is founded, or unfounded, when you see articles like this pop-up every few days and it's always about your team I think it's fair for the fan base to feel like they are a laughing stock.

Also (and this may not be your stance so I apologise if it's not), but many of the pro-management members are also those that believe we are a laughing stock for not selling out games.

So which is it, are we a laughing stock for bad ownership, or a laughing stock for a bad fan base?
 
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SlyDawg

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This is a tad off topic but I wanted to touch upon the whole Karlsson is having a down year part.

Curiously, I wanted to see exactly where he was at in PPG as I feel like this is a decent stat to look at in regards to a yearly total and evaluating where he is in production.

As such, I went to TSN.ca as well as the Sens main web page to see the information

First, let's see currently the standing of all top 10 d man in scoring right now:

Klingberg: 0.85 PPG
Burns: 0.8 PPG
Carlson: 0.78 PPG
Gostisbehere: 0.83 PPG
Subban: 0.76 PPG
Hedman: 0.75 PPG
Josi: 0.73 PPG
EK: 0.77 PPG
Doughty: 0.77 PPG
Suter: 0.67 PPG

If we were to reorganize this in the PPG column, in the top 10, which all of these players have played 55+ games, EK ranks 5th:

Klingberg
Gostibehere
Burns
Carlson
Karlsson

Alright, so 5th in the league, over even some people who are on better teams such as PK and Hedman. Not too shabby, for a team that's completely devoid of much going on right now.

So now I decided to evaluate as a norm what EK does in a year in PPG:

2009: 0.43
2010: 0.6
2011: 0.96
2012: 0.82 (17 games)
2013: 0.90
2014: 0.80
2015: 1.00
2016: 0.92
2017 current: 0.77

Looking at this, his current pace is actually not his lowest, but let's take off his two first years because obviously the first two years of a player's career won't be great unless you're friggen Sidney Crosby or Connor McDavid. His average: 0.80 with everything calculated.

On a team that is having such a hard time, he's 0.03 off of his average. Which gives credibility to those saying he's having a down year...

But he's still exceptionally close to his average.


--

My point in this exercise is for those who think that he should be signed at a small contract. Looking above, to Karlsson, and his agent, there is NO way they would agree to that because Dorion "wants to see where he's at" because technically he's around his average anyway. He's just not having a crazy year like he did between 2013 and 2016. That's essentially giving some power to Dorion to say "You're not averaging the same amount since the urgency" to which EK's agent goes "he's averaging around his average in total."

Which is better than five of the ten top defencemen in the league right now. On a bum team. With a bum ankle. With 20 games to increase that closer to his average.

EK is NOT going to be looking for a bridge deal or below market value. He's going for the long term and it's justly deserved. To relate to the thread, it's up to Ownership now to decide if he's worth giving the money on a trend that he's still averaging his norm on a whole even with an ankle not 100% ready yet. You're gonna pay for 4-5 good years still of EK. The last three may not be up to snuff but nearly all contracts that long never are worth the last bit. Structure it so you pay off the most in the start and tail it down at the end and I'm thinking 8 years is fine.

You can rebuild with a superstar on your team. The problem is this: Does the player want to and will ownership be fine with giving him that money.
 

Rhaegar Targaryen

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Jun 25, 2016
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This is a tad off topic but I wanted to touch upon the whole Karlsson is having a down year part.

Curiously, I wanted to see exactly where he was at in PPG as I feel like this is a decent stat to look at in regards to a yearly total and evaluating where he is in production.

As such, I went to TSN.ca as well as the Sens main web page to see the information

First, let's see currently the standing of all top 10 d man in scoring right now:

Klingberg: 0.85 PPG
Burns: 0.8 PPG
Carlson: 0.78 PPG
Gostisbehere: 0.83 PPG
Subban: 0.76 PPG
Hedman: 0.75 PPG
Josi: 0.73 PPG
EK: 0.77 PPG
Doughty: 0.77 PPG
Suter: 0.67 PPG

If we were to reorganize this in the PPG column, in the top 10, which all of these players have played 55+ games, EK ranks 5th:

Klingberg
Gostibehere
Burns
Carlson
Karlsson

Alright, so 5th in the league, over even some people who are on better teams such as PK and Hedman. Not too shabby, for a team that's completely devoid of much going on right now.

So now I decided to evaluate as a norm what EK does in a year in PPG:

2009: 0.43
2010: 0.6
2011: 0.96
2012: 0.82 (17 games)
2013: 0.90
2014: 0.80
2015: 1.00
2016: 0.92
2017 current: 0.77

Looking at this, his current pace is actually not his lowest, but let's take off his two first years because obviously the first two years of a player's career won't be great unless you're friggen Sidney Crosby or Connor McDavid. His average: 0.80 with everything calculated.

On a team that is having such a hard time, he's 0.03 off of his average. Which gives credibility to those saying he's having a down year...

But he's still exceptionally close to his average.


--

My point in this exercise is for those who think that he should be signed at a small contract. Looking above, to Karlsson, and his agent, there is NO way they would agree to that because Dorion "wants to see where he's at" because technically he's around his average anyway. He's just not having a crazy year like he did between 2013 and 2016. That's essentially giving some power to Dorion to say "You're not averaging the same amount since the urgency" to which EK's agent goes "he's averaging around his average in total."

Which is better than five of the ten top defencemen in the league right now. On a bum team. With a bum ankle. With 20 games to increase that closer to his average.

EK is NOT going to be looking for a bridge deal or below market value. He's going for the long term and it's justly deserved. To relate to the thread, it's up to Ownership now to decide if he's worth giving the money on a trend that he's still averaging his norm on a whole even with an ankle not 100% ready yet. You're gonna pay for 4-5 good years still of EK. The last three may not be up to snuff but nearly all contracts that long never are worth the last bit. Structure it so you pay off the most in the start and tail it down at the end and I'm thinking 8 years is fine.

You can rebuild with a superstar on your team. The problem is this: Does the player want to and will ownership be fine with giving him that money.

I don't think anyone is concerned about his offensive play. The team can't buy a goal at times, and nobody other than Stone is having a great offensive season.

It's the effort level and defense he brings. His defense last year was crazy good, probably as good as his offensive game which was close to point per game. This year it hasn't been the same, he's been floating a lot and getting frustrated really easily. This could be a number of reasons: his ankle, trade speculation, etc.

Remember 2013-14? Karlsson was coming off injury and didn't look the same. He put up 74 points, only four off his career high at the time (20 goals, too), but didn't win the Norris and nobody was happy with his season. It was a similar Karlsson who looked like he lacked effort or defensive capabilities.

With that being said, I'm sure EK will be fine again, and I also agree with you about the contract. There's absolutely zero percent chance Karlsson takes a 'bridge offer'. He doesn't need to. Some team is going to offer him long-term and big money. He's 27 years old, has already proven himself with two Norris Trophy's and five years of elite play. He'd be an idiot to risk injury, decline, anything on a guaranteed cash-out.
 

SlyDawg

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Feb 12, 2015
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I don't think anyone is concerned about his offensive play. The team can't buy a goal at times, and nobody other than Stone is having a great offensive season.

It's the effort level and defense he brings. His defense last year was crazy good, probably as good as his offensive game which was close to point per game. This year it hasn't been the same, he's been floating a lot and getting frustrated really easily. This could be a number of reasons: his ankle, trade speculation, etc.

Remember 2013-14? Karlsson was coming off injury and didn't look the same. He put up 74 points, only four off his career high at the time (20 goals, too), but didn't win the Norris and nobody was happy with his season. It was a similar Karlsson who looked like he lacked effort or defensive capabilities.

With that being said, I'm sure EK will be fine again, and I also agree with you about the contract. There's absolutely zero percent chance Karlsson takes a 'bridge offer'. He doesn't need to. Some team is going to offer him long-term and big money. He's 27 years old, has already proven himself with two Norris Trophy's and five years of elite play. He'd be an idiot to risk injury, decline, anything on a guaranteed cash-out.

That's something else that I wanted to touch upon.

To me? The only season he really had a crazy good defensive game was last year in the playoffs where he went above and beyond. Erik Karlsson has always been a high offense puck moving defenceman tha that has always had issues defensively 'except' that one year where he was ridiculous. In the law of averages, I put that as an odd blip.

Again, it's my opinion that we were paying EK for the offensive portion of his game. And that was worth 10+ million to me because he's such a dynamic player. I never thought he should be paid more than 11+ mil but at this point, it's what he's going to go because of that one season he had a ridiculous run. We'll be paying for that run for sure for the 'potential' to get him back.

But I have never in my time watching him play thought him as a defensive mastermind, and was not paying him for that either. Leave that to either his partner (to which I sorely miss Marc Methot for) or your shutdown pair you want to run. Chabot's of the same ilk, honestly, and Dahlin is showing himself to be EK 2.0 which means you're looking at the same thing. Time will tell if the latter will grow defensively but...you don't pay these guys defensively, as funny as it sounds coming from talking about a D man.

I dunno, I was moreso posting this to point out to those who were saying he was a having a down year and are worried about EK no longer being the same and trying to rationalize the fact: He's not far off his usual average and he's on a poop team right now not scoring worth their lives and still averaging around his average.
 

SlyDawg

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Feb 12, 2015
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Nepean, ON
Karlsson is shooting 4% this year.

He's usually around 7.5%.
He's also averaging 0.77 points per game.

Shooting the puck more increases the chances of getting a goal, but that could be more the case that he's thinking too much and picking his spots instead of letting things go natural. And that could really be based off of the background noise that might have impacted him.

Again, still a blip in the radar IMO. he has a lower shooting percentage and still around his average point per game. If anything, that should show you he's starting to evolve a tad more as a point scorer. Which leads far more towards he's still pretty dang good.
 

Korpse

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Shooting more usually leads to a lower SH%, with Karlsson he has been shooting slightly less. I think the drop in goals and SH% is a result of less quality chances. For the most part he hasn't been moving up the ice as he usually does.
 

Rhaegar Targaryen

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Jun 25, 2016
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That's something else that I wanted to touch upon.

To me? The only season he really had a crazy good defensive game was last year in the playoffs where he went above and beyond. Erik Karlsson has always been a high offense puck moving defenceman tha that has always had issues defensively 'except' that one year where he was ridiculous. In the law of averages, I put that as an odd blip.

Again, it's my opinion that we were paying EK for the offensive portion of his game. And that was worth 10+ million to me because he's such a dynamic player. I never thought he should be paid more than 11+ mil but at this point, it's what he's going to go because of that one season he had a ridiculous run. We'll be paying for that run for sure for the 'potential' to get him back.

But I have never in my time watching him play thought him as a defensive mastermind, and was not paying him for that either. Leave that to either his partner (to which I sorely miss Marc Methot for) or your shutdown pair you want to run. Chabot's of the same ilk, honestly, and Dahlin is showing himself to be EK 2.0 which means you're looking at the same thing. Time will tell if the latter will grow defensively but...you don't pay these guys defensively, as funny as it sounds coming from talking about a D man.

I dunno, I was moreso posting this to point out to those who were saying he was a having a down year and are worried about EK no longer being the same and trying to rationalize the fact: He's not far off his usual average and he's on a poop team right now not scoring worth their lives and still averaging around his average.

In my eyes, I saw his defense as pretty poor in 2013-14, much like this year. I credit it to coming back from a major injury that had an effect on his body. In 2014-15, in the second half, I think he took a step forward. He really started to look like his old self. In 2015-16, I thought he was pretty good defensively. 2016-17 he was a beast.

I will say, I do think his defensive errors are overstated. I see guys like Doughty, Pietrangelo, Subban, Keith makes mistakes pretty frequently. It happens. There's tons of big, skilled guys in the league who make defensemen look silly one out of ten times. Karlsson's, for whatever reason, is pointed out more.

Personally, I'd be willing to give Karlsson a max contract if it means him staying. Is the difference in 2 million really worth losing a guy like Karlsson? Especially considering what guys like Smith, Burrows and Ryan make?
 
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Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk

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EK will be traded at the draft.

Possible. I don't think Dorion has the balls to pull off a trade of this magnitude though. He's the typical big talk to walk guy, which is great for media I guess but leaves me rolling my eyes as a fan. Dorion needs to talk less and do more to get this team to elite status, whether it's a full rebuild or just trading an aging piece or two.

As of now...whatever. We will return to the same lineup and be a bubble team with a little improved goaltending.
 

Karl Prime

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Feb 13, 2017
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That's something else that I wanted to touch upon.

To me? The only season he really had a crazy good defensive game was last year in the playoffs where he went above and beyond. Erik Karlsson has always been a high offense puck moving defenceman tha that has always had issues defensively 'except' that one year where he was ridiculous. In the law of averages, I put that as an odd blip.

Again, it's my opinion that we were paying EK for the offensive portion of his game. And that was worth 10+ million to me because he's such a dynamic player. I never thought he should be paid more than 11+ mil but at this point, it's what he's going to go because of that one season he had a ridiculous run. We'll be paying for that run for sure for the 'potential' to get him back.

But I have never in my time watching him play thought him as a defensive mastermind, and was not paying him for that either. Leave that to either his partner (to which I sorely miss Marc Methot for) or your shutdown pair you want to run. Chabot's of the same ilk, honestly, and Dahlin is showing himself to be EK 2.0 which means you're looking at the same thing. Time will tell if the latter will grow defensively but...you don't pay these guys defensively, as funny as it sounds coming from talking about a D man.

I dunno, I was moreso posting this to point out to those who were saying he was a having a down year and are worried about EK no longer being the same and trying to rationalize the fact: He's not far off his usual average and he's on a poop team right now not scoring worth their lives and still averaging around his average.

His point totals look better than they actually are because he started the season with 17 points in 11 games. Since then he has 27 points in 46 games, or 0.59 PPG.
 

Boud

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Dec 27, 2011
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Possible. I don't think Dorion has the balls to pull off a trade of this magnitude though. He's the typical big talk to walk guy, which is great for media I guess but leaves me rolling my eyes as a fan. Dorion needs to talk less and do more to get this team to elite status, whether it's a full rebuild or just trading an aging piece or two.

As of now...whatever. We will return to the same lineup and be a bubble team with a little improved goaltending.

Dorion does talk a lot but he has made some big moves since being here in a short time span. The Brassard deal and the Duchene deal are big trades. He's made several lower level trades and signings but the two Brassard trades and then Duchene... those are bold moves.

If anything I don't think Dorion would be scared to pull the trigger. Especially now that the team is rebuilding, I think we will see more big trades for young players and picks. He does have some tough contracts to move/work with no doubt - like Ryan and Gaborik. Ultimately we need to get rid of those but will be extremely hard to do.

If Melnyk would retain say 2M on the Ryan contract I think we could move him.
 

Micklebot

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His point totals look better than they actually are because he started the season with 17 points in 11 games. Since then he has 27 points in 46 games, or 0.59 PPG.
by the same token, if you eliminate his brutal 10 game pointless streak after those first 11 games, his pts per game was .75 in the last 36 games. Not sure you can pick and choose which portion of the season to count.
 
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