Other Chicago & General Sports Thread LVII: Bulls draft Carter & Hutchison

[clydesdale line]

I am still firmly on the Ayton bandwagon. Just can't teach the kind of tantalizing tools and upside he has. Really wished MPJ didn't get injured. Ayton is pretty much my favorite prospect by default.

 

[LDF]

I can see why people would like Doncic. He appears like a player. However, in the end, Doncic is a good shooting slow footed 6'6"-6'7" wing with high basketball IQ. Bagley is a long 6'11' athletic forward / center with great inside post skills and high offensive IQ. Both players are suspect defensively. It could be because they are both 18 years. Tony Bennett always said teaching young players post defense / hedging / double teaming is far harder than guarding on the perimeter. In case you don't know who Tony Bennett is ... his father taught Stevens and Butler University his philosophy of defense.

Ultimately, if you like Doncic, it comes down to his basketball IQ. How sure are you that his basketball IQ is off the charts? Will his IQ translate into the NBA? Plenty of high basketball IQ Euros become "stupid" when they face athletic freaks with 7' wingspans. It's why longer / taller Euros fare far better than smaller wings. Markannen is 7'.

Bagley will have to improve his shooting. That's obvious. Doncic has to prove that as a good shooting but 6'6"-6'7" slow footed wing, that his basketball IQ will differentiate him. Who has the better risk / reward profile? What type of prospect is tougher to find? Who has the higher upside? Who's game translate better to the NBA? Those are the questions you have to ask. Heck, Ayton, Bamba, Young, or Porter might have more upside than both.

i had a discussion with someone earlier this week or last. i was mentioning some of what you posted, i however was not able to break it down as nicely as you have done.

at this pivotal spot in drafting, even at the most of bpa, Doncic is not the best player. he has upside, but not in the top 9 selection of this draft. some of the later mock selections, the 4-8 are starting to make a name for themselves. it is the upside that will determine the player draft where the bulls will be selecting.

 

[LDF]

I am still firmly on the Ayton bandwagon. Just can't teach the kind of tantalizing tools and upside he has. Really wished MPJ didn't get injured. Ayton is pretty much my favorite prospect by default.

no matter what, he is what 18/19 yrs old and he has this talent level. he will continue to grow and get better.

 

[Rooh]

Doncic is good, but you always forget to tell entire story.

1. No one thinks Doncic is going to be a good defensive player. NO ONE. They think he can be acceptable with some work ... and that is as a forward. There's no way he can guard other PGs unless it's Lonzo Ball.

2. Doncic scored 33 points in 38 minutes in a game Real Madrid LOST. Do you know who the 2nd leading scorer for Real Madrid was? Jaycee Carroll. A 33 year old from undrafted FA from Utah State. He had a few tryouts and never made the NBA.

3. Do you know the 2nd scorer for Olympiacos? Kotas Papanikolaou scored 22 points. His 2 year NBA scoring average was 3 points. Their leading scorer was a big center and never sniffed the NBA.

4. Kyle Wiltjer plays for Olympiacos. Now you can make an argument he had a good college career but doesn't play in the Euros. That said a lot of G League players star in the Euro Leagues.

=> No one is saying Doncic isn't good. However, the NBA draft is about upside. The Euro League is very different from the NBA. Comparing European basketball to American basketball is silly. You have to see how Doncic's skills translate in America. Everyone thought Mirotic would be some passing / shooting wizard for the Bulls. He's a no defense black hole who can shoot a bit when he gets hot.

Doncic has weaknesses to his game ... just like Bagley. You act like he is a guarantee. He's not.

How does anyone say Trae Young is a good defender? LOL.

Tell the entire story. Stop picking and choosing to push your narrative. Be fair with your analysis. What is your infatuation with Doncic? Even I have my reservations with Bagley and Porter. However, you claimed Doncic will be one of the best PGs in the NBA? How do you know? From his European stats?

Again, Doncic is a 6'6" / 6'7" wing with a high basketball IQ. He's not a PG in the NBA. He's a good shooter and passer. He is a suspect NBA defender due to his foot speed. How many slow footed 6'6-6'7" wings who can shoot are in the NBA? You have to bank on his alleged high basketball IQ. The Bulls thought the same of Denzel Valentine and Doug McDermott. How did that turn out? That's the risk of picking Doncic. 6'11" players who are as athletic / with high post skills don't grow on trees.

1. Doncic is not a PG he is a 6'8 Point Forward, he will never be guarding PGs, his primary position on the Bulls would be SF.

2. You have to understand that Jayce Caroll and all of those "bad NBA players" your listing are pros that are better than most of the college competition that any of the college prospects are currently competing against. Guess what, Papanikolaou would be a star player in college basketball as well as Caroll just as Jimmer Fredette was. Doncic also performed excellent against current NBA players and stars in Eurobasket.

3. Did I ever say Trae Young was a "good defender" I clearly said he won't hurt a defense as much as Bagley potentially could because he plays a lesser position on defense..damn near every PG in the NBA is a negative on defense, it's just how it is..they are small but again they don't control much of the way the defense plays.

4. How am I not being fair with analysis? I call out what I see it's not hard to see the bigs are poor defenders and they have less skill and more weaknesses in their game than Doncic. Doncic doesn't have an "alleged" basketball I.Q, his I.Q is off the charts for an 18 year old, how many players do you see able to make some of the passes or just plays in general that Doncic makes. I don't want the Bulls to have a player that doesn't have much skills established yet and has an average I.Q..your taking a huge risk with Bagley. Even comparing Doncic skill and I.Q level to Valentine and McDermott is just very bad.

Ayton will challenge Doncic if he shows an improvement in rim protection and MPJ was right there before he hurt his back.

 

[Rooh]

This video was made before the season and since then he has made a significant jump in almost all aspects of the game.

 

[Rooh]

Ayton having a fantastic game against Alabama right now, the way he moves around the court is not normal for a man of that size.

 

[Easy E]

Is it just me or did the Yankees fleece the Marlins?

f***... The Cubs should have offered up. $26MM AAV for Stanton.

Jeter doing his old team a solid.

 

[Sarava]

That's a risky deal. What if he develops nagging injuries. You're stuck paying the dude around 30 mil for the next 9-10 years, or whatever it is.

 

[LDF]

Is it just me or did the Yankees fleece the Marlins?

****... The Cubs should have offered up. $26MM AAV for Stanton.

Jeter doing his old team a solid.

brought an interesting point there. something that i was, and i am not ashamed to admit. afraid to mention.

in my own opinion, yanks did fleeced marlins for Stanton. Castro value is more than 1/2 of Stanton ?? c'mon. i guess in their books, marlins it is.

however that make my trade idea i got dragged over the coal a little more possible. btw this was on another site.

 

[HeisenBaez]

Is it just me or did the Yankees fleece the Marlins?

****... The Cubs should have offered up. $26MM AAV for Stanton.

Jeter doing his old team a solid.

Sadly this is not Jeter "doing his old team a solid". Rumors are out there that the Marlins have told their shareholders they are dropping their payroll--not to the wildly reported 95 mill but--to $55 million. And with Stanton telling the Marlins there were 4 teams he would agree too (the four teams that played in the 2 LCS in 2017), there is not much Jeter and the Marlins can do. It was stupid of the previous regime to offer Stanton that albatross of a contract AND a full no-trade clause.

Of course the Yankees fleeced the Marlins, they had the leverage. Marlins need to cut payroll and Stanton left them with very few options.

As for the Cubs, as much as I like Stanton, they have their eyes on a much tantalizing talent in next year's class...Bryce Harper. Harper>Stanton and it's not close. Should the Cubs miss out on both Stanton/Harper, then so be it, the Cubs are in a good spot talent wise, and it's not the end of the world.

 

[HeisenBaez]

That's a risky deal. What if he develops nagging injuries. You're stuck paying the dude around 30 mil for the next 9-10 years, or whatever it is.

They had experience dealing with 10 year deals, aka ARod. By 31 or 32, the Yankees will simply put him at DH and just like him smash.

 

[LDF]

They had experience dealing with 10 year deals, aka ARod. By 31 or 32, the Yankees will simply put him at DH and just like him smash.

with the overcrowding in the outfield for the yanks, i wouldn't be surprise to see some ending up as a DH now.

however i am wondering if someone of that group can play 1b as well.

 

[Sarava]

with the overcrowding in the outfield for the yanks, i wouldn't be surprise to see some ending up as a DH now.

however i am wondering if someone of that group can play 1b as well.

Well rumor is alreay out that they are looking to move Clint Frazier. He was a top 20 prospect a year ago. He underwhelmed in his rookie season. To be fair, most rookies underwhelm, so take it for what you want.

 

[LDF]

Well rumor is alreay out that they are looking to move Clint Frazier. He was a top 20 prospect a year ago. He underwhelmed in his rookie season. To be fair, most rookies underwhelm, so take it for what you want.

wow, that took me by surprise. my thoughts would be the sox will be a team the yanks can use as a salary dumb. like for their CF'er. plus maybe an additional player added for their 1st man. any young player not name Jose Abreu.

they have some really enticing your prospects in the minors for that next wave ....

 

[Sarava]

I don't see Reinsdorf taking salary dumps. I'm not saying he's cheap like the McCaskey's, but I don't see him taking on salary that doesn't give him a return.

Also remember they just paid like $50 mil for Luis Robert. I'm guessing they paid this moeny, knowing the 2018 team payroll would be miniscule. Aka - he is likely getting paid from this year's budget.

 

[Sarava]

AL powers aim to answer moves by Yanks, Halos

Phil Rogers is just spitballing here...regarding moves teams could make to counter the Yankees big splash with the Marlins. He says what if the Red Sox traded Benintendi to the White Sox for Abreu, Avi and Yolmer.

Hard to imagine the Red Sox moving Benintendi, but man just think of what Yolmer, Abreu and Avi would do for their team. As Rogers pointed out that they were a combined 12.7 WAR for the Sox last year.

 

[LDF]

I don't see Reinsdorf taking salary dumps. I'm not saying he's cheap like the McCaskey's, but I don't see him taking on salary that doesn't give him a return.

Also remember they just paid like $50 mil for Luis Robert. I'm guessing they paid this moeny, knowing the 2018 team payroll would be miniscule. Aka - he is likely getting paid from this year's budget.

i thought i read somewhere on this site that mention that the sox will look into a salary dump, to bring up the team's salary to the cap bottom. well lets say a perceived bottom.

 

[Sarava]

I didn't know there was a cap bottom or perceived cap bottom. I'm not an expert though

 

[LDF]

AL powers aim to answer moves by Yanks, Halos

Phil Rogers is just spitballing here...regarding moves teams could make to counter the Yankees big splash with the Marlins. He says what if the Red Sox traded Benintendi to the White Sox for Abreu, Avi and Yolmer.

Hard to imagine the Red Sox moving Benintendi, but man just think of what Yolmer, Abreu and Avi would do for their team. As Rogers pointed out that they were a combined 12.7 WAR for the Sox last year.

edit ~~~~ just read the rpt, mistook the article.

 

[LDF]

I didn't know there was a cap bottom or perceived cap bottom. I'm not an expert though

neither am i, i just remember the league was going to get on the previous marlin ownership on keeping the salary below a certain point. that was when they, the ownership invested huge for Stanton.

 

[Sarava]

neither am i, i just remember the league was going to get on the previous marlin ownership on keeping the salary below a certain point. that was when they, the ownership invested huge for Stanton.

Ahh ok. I suspect the Sox will be ok there. It's thought they will try to spend big next winter. They won't have a cheap payroll year after year like the Marlins have done at times.

Everyone has been talking about Manny Machado to the Sox. But now the Orioles are supposedly listening to offers for him. So there's a danger that a team might trade for him and sign him to a big deal.

I still don't want to trade for him though. They'll ask for Eloy or Kopech or Robert...nah. That defeats the purpose of the rebuild.

Just take our chances on whoever is out there next winter. Even if the Sox have to shift gears and make a run at Bryce Harper or someone else.

 

[Sarava]

edit ~~~~ just read the rpt, mistook the article.

It probably doesn't matter. Benintendi is likely just as untouchable to Boston as Jimenez, Kopech, Hansen, Moncada and Robert are for us. I would be absolutely shocked if they considered moving him.

 

[LDF]

Ahh ok. I suspect the Sox will be ok there. It's thought they will try to spend big next winter. They won't have a cheap payroll year after year like the Marlins have done at times.

Everyone has been talking about Manny Machado to the Sox. But now the Orioles are supposedly listening to offers for him. So there's a danger that a team might trade for him and sign him to a big deal.

I still don't want to trade for him though. They'll ask for Eloy or Kopech or Robert...nah. That defeats the purpose of the rebuild.

Just take our chances on whoever is out there next winter. Even if the Sox have to shift gears and make a run at Bryce Harper or someone else.

there is alot of possibility out there on the Fa market. but i can see how teams do not want to be address about this. who knows what the internal conversations that is not known to the media.

the main core of the white sox prospect will not be touch. no matter who it might be available.

 

[clydesdale line]

Brandon Morrow to the Cubs.

Luke Gregerson to the Cardinals.

Both 2 year deals with an option for 3rd year (about 10-11 mil for Morrow, 2 years 11 mil for Gregerson) per Heyman and Rosenthal.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I can dig it. Need bullpen help anyway.