Orr Vs Gretzky

[BNHL]

Ok Ogopogo, maybe this will makes sense to you.
And Cyclops you speak of Gretz throwing the bar out the window by how much he was bettering everyone else. Check this out.

I think we would all agree that comparing Orr and Gretzky accurately is quite difficult because they played different positions. So may i suggest we compare how much better they were than the next best player in their relative positions. To do so let's use some stats. This should keep the pro Gretz camp happy as this is their number one(and pretty much only) argument to validate their claim.

The "previous" numbers listed below are from the next closest player that they surpassed..
This info is directly out of The Hockey News - 100 Greatest Players Book.

Starting with Gretzky. Highest Goals in a Season - 92
Previous highest goals in a season 76. A 21% increase.

Highest assists in a season - 163.
Previous highest assists in a season - 102. A 60% increase.

Highest points in a season - 215.
Previous highest points in a season - 152. A 41% increase.

Very impressive indeed. Now lets look at how much better Orr was then his peers.

Highest Goals in a season - 46.
Previous highest goals in a season - 24. A 92% increase!!!!

Highest assists in a season - 102.
Previous highest assists in a season 52. A 96% increase!!!!!!

Highest points in a season - 139.
Previous highest points in a season - 63. A 121% increase!!!!!!

Uhhhh,,,,, yeah....
Orr put up those ridiculous numbers and was still the best defenseman at the same time.
If you don't understand how a complete player who is so good at everything is better than the best one dimensional player than your logic is clearly impaired.

OG-I guess he's calling you stupid now,but you know you're not.

 

[BNHL]

For arguments sake,let's say a hockey player is evaluated on skating,speed,shooting,hockey intelligence,physical play,defensive acumen and offensive prowess. Orr is a better skater,Orr is a faster skater,Orr has a better shot,Orr has been called a hockey genius as has Gretzky,Orr was a very physical player,Orr played the best defense of the era whether you want to admit it or not.Orr's offense from the defensive position is at least equal to the offensive superiority of Gretzky taking into consideration the position. Orr's jockstrap would be far too heavy for Gretzky,he'd need Semenko to carry it. Overboard?Tough!Stupid?Good. As Sinden said in a game in the 70 playoffs "Bobby made 30 moves tonight noone had ever seen before"! Youtube videos cannot define the man and numbers and stats only begin to tell the story.You really had to be in the moment,in the experience when the picture was being painted,smelling the smoke and feeling the chills,revelling in the sheer beauty and genius of what was happening and looking at the fan crying beside you because you are in the presence for maybe the only time in your life of pure greatness. I've seen people weeping at the entrance of the New England Sports Museum watching the Bobby Orr highlight film. It truly is extraordinary to witness. Nice pass Gretz!

 

[espo*]

lol, o.k.

And Newton can't carry Einsteins briefcase either.

 

[BNHL]

Sir Isaac Newton was cared for by a niece!

 

[espo*]

LOL.Was he?

All i know is that he could'nt have carried Bobby's jockstrap. What the hell did he ever do in his career anyway?

Bobby slays Newton.

 

[BNHL]

......but maybe not Alexander Popov's!

 

[Stonefly]

our logics impaired? by showing me that Gretzky and Orr made mincemeat out of what was previousely thought possible? we've all already said,I already said that!!!

This isn't new,we all know those guys did what was previousely thought impossible. My point is,how can anyone that has the dominance that is in Bobby's class not be considered to be able to "hold his jockstrap"

because he blocked shots better? could throw his fists better?

You'll have to de better then that for me.

calling Orr better then Gretzky.............. i have no issue.

Saying Gretzky isn't in Orr's league................you better have something more on the table then shot blocking.

The guy has over 1,000 goals and close to 3,000 points and dominated at every level. He's in Orr's league.

And for the last time i'm not in anyone's camp,i even said i prefer Orr for God's sake.The only "camp" i'm trying to avoid being in is the "going overboard" camp. That's the camp with the "could'nt hold Orr's jockstrap" comments.Just keep me out of that one please.

because it's out of control hyperbole.

I apologize for grouping you in any "camp". The point i wanted to make to you was that i think YOUR hyperbole was a bit over the top. Gretzky did raise the bar but i wouldn't say he threw it out the window as you did. In fact the increases in offensive percentages are quite similar to those that Esposito put up. In fact Espo's increase was higher at 56%
Throwing the bar out the window is what Bobby did.
There's more to it than blocking shots and fighting too. But hey man, it's all opinion. To each his own.

 

[BNHL]

"Hyperbole" is used to create a strong impression or convey strong feelings but is not meant to be taken literally,that's the fault of the reader!

 

[Insta]

Ok Ogopogo, maybe this will makes sense to you.
And Cyclops you speak of Gretz throwing the bar out the window by how much he was bettering everyone else. Check this out.

I think we would all agree that comparing Orr and Gretzky accurately is quite difficult because they played different positions. So may i suggest we compare how much better they were than the next best player in their relative positions. To do so let's use some stats. This should keep the pro Gretz camp happy as this is their number one(and pretty much only) argument to validate their claim.

The "previous" numbers listed below are from the next closest player that they surpassed..
This info is directly out of The Hockey News - 100 Greatest Players Book.

Starting with Gretzky. Highest Goals in a Season - 92
Previous highest goals in a season 76. A 21% increase.

Highest assists in a season - 163.
Previous highest assists in a season - 102. A 60% increase.

Highest points in a season - 215.
Previous highest points in a season - 152. A 41% increase.

Very impressive indeed. Now lets look at how much better Orr was then his peers.

Highest Goals in a season - 46.
Previous highest goals in a season - 24. A 92% increase!!!!

Highest assists in a season - 102.
Previous highest assists in a season 52. A 96% increase!!!!!!

Highest points in a season - 139.
Previous highest points in a season - 63. A 121% increase!!!!!!

Uhhhh,,,,, yeah....
Orr put up those ridiculous numbers and was still the best defenseman at the same time.
If you don't understand how a complete player who is so good at everything is better than the best one dimensional player than your logic is clearly impaired.

D-men arent meant to score goals whereas forwards are. It is easier for an amazing Dman to put up much bigger number offensively over the next guy than it is for an amazing forward.

 

[Stonefly]

"Hyperbole" is used to create a strong impression or convey strong feelings but is not meant to be taken literally,that's the fault of the reader!

Oh. Okay, thanks for the heads up. Most helpful indeed.

 

[Stonefly]

D-men arent meant to score goals whereas forwards are. It is easier for an amazing Dman to put up much bigger number offensively over the next guy than it is for an amazing forward.

Fantastic. Thanks.

 

[Stonefly]

"Hyperbole" is used to create a strong impression or convey strong feelings but is not meant to be taken literally,that's the fault of the reader!

See, i thought he meant that Gretzky actually went to the closest high jump competition and took the bar and chucked it out a window.
Super. Thanks again.

 

[espo*]

I apologize for grouping you in any "camp". The point i wanted to make to you was that i think YOUR hyperbole was a bit over the top. Gretzky did raise the bar but i wouldn't say he threw it out the window as you did. In fact the increases in offensive percentages are quite similar to those that Esposito put up. In fact Espo's increase was higher at 56%
Throwing the bar out the window is what Bobby did.
There's more to it than blocking shots and fighting too. But hey man, it's all opinion. To each his own.

Hey,Orr's great,no problem with that for me.I know he's awesome.But it's an opinion when it comes to Orr versus Gretzky.It's not like Orr versus Doug Risebrough.

Bobby's an elite all time great,Wayne's an elite all time great. They're close if you ask me.How can't they be?

Like you said though,to each his own.

 

[BNHL]

Oh. Okay, thanks for the heads up. Most helpful indeed.

Sorry,not meant for you.

 

[espo*]

"Hyperbole" is used to create a strong impression or convey strong feelings but is not meant to be taken literally,that's the fault of the reader!

Ah, thanks for straightening that out.

 

[Stonefly]

Sorry,not meant for you.

Who was it meant for? Or what was your point?

 

[BNHL]

Hey,Orr's great,no problem with that for me.I know he's awesome.But it's an opinion when it comes to Orr versus Gretzky.It's not like Orr versus Doug Risebrough.

Bobby's an elite all time great,Wayne's an elite all time great. They're close if you ask me.How can't they be?

Like you said though,to each his own.

I know I gotta get off this but for me it's fact,not even close.Gretzky may have not even been the best player on his own team (Messier).I'm biased since I grew up 3 miles from the Garden in the Orr era.My family had season tickets since 1965 (Orr came in 66-how lucky!) and I finally gave them up this year-41 years! I saw Orr whenever one of the 2 seats were available which in 72 was always as my father had a bad knee. I guess I saw him 100 times live.I saw Gretzky 10-15 times as I did Lemieux and they were just not the same. If I could give a baseball analogy I look at Gretzky as a 2 tool player-offense and sense. Manny Ramirez is a 2 tool player-hit and hit for power but cannot throw,field or run with any great ability. Then you have Barry Bonds (juiced up I know) who can hit,hit for power,run,field and throw all with All Star ability. Orr is that guy who can do it all (minus the HGH).

 

[cgb]

Ok Ogopogo, maybe this will makes sense to you.
And Cyclops you speak of Gretz throwing the bar out the window by how much he was bettering everyone else. Check this out.

I think we would all agree that comparing Orr and Gretzky accurately is quite difficult because they played different positions. So may i suggest we compare how much better they were than the next best player in their relative positions. To do so let's use some stats. This should keep the pro Gretz camp happy as this is their number one(and pretty much only) argument to validate their claim.

The "previous" numbers listed below are from the next closest player that they surpassed..
This info is directly out of The Hockey News - 100 Greatest Players Book.

Starting with Gretzky. Highest Goals in a Season - 92
Previous highest goals in a season 76. A 21% increase.

Highest assists in a season - 163.
Previous highest assists in a season - 102. A 60% increase.

Highest points in a season - 215.
Previous highest points in a season - 152. A 41% increase.

Very impressive indeed. Now lets look at how much better Orr was then his peers.

Highest Goals in a season - 46.
Previous highest goals in a season - 24. A 92% increase!!!!

Highest assists in a season - 102.
Previous highest assists in a season 52. A 96% increase!!!!!!

Highest points in a season - 139.
Previous highest points in a season - 63. A 121% increase!!!!!!

Uhhhh,,,,, yeah....
Orr put up those ridiculous numbers and was still the best defenseman at the same time.
If you don't understand how a complete player who is so good at everything is better than the best one dimensional player than your logic is clearly impaired.

As someone else said, the difference is that Orr did something completely different by being an offensive defenseman, so it was easier for him to blow away previous marks. Gretzky blew away previous marks of players that supposed to be doing the same thing he was --putting up points.

And every one of Gretzky's records are still standing now. He still has 6 more goals than anyone else has ever done, 16 more points and 49 more assists.
Orr on the other hand lost the goals record to Coffey, and is only 1 point ahead of Coffey and is only about 10 or 12 assists ahead of Coffey.

Gretzky has the top 2 goal totals ever, the top 4 point totals ever and the top 10 or 11 assist totals ever. Orr can't make anything close to that claim for defensemen.

 

[BNHL]

Who was it meant for? Or what was your point?

I was the guy who made the 5 on 5 comment and the jockstrap comment which I saw quoted as "hyperbole" and stupid.I just saw it again in the quote you were replying to. I went into this for fun but insults have taken the fun out of it since we're not allowed to think "out of the box". I disagree with all the Gretzky backers but don't presume to have the right to denigrade or conclude any opinion,theory or idea is stupid.

 

[espo*]

I know I gotta get off this but for me it's fact,not even close.Gretzky may have not even been the best player on his own team (Messier).I'm biased since I grew up 3 miles from the Garden in the Orr era.My family had season tickets since 1965 (Orr came in 66-how lucky!) and I finally gave them up this year-41 years! I saw Orr whenever one of the 2 seats were available which in 72 was always as my father had a bad knee. I guess I saw him 100 times live.I saw Gretzky 10-15 times as I did Lemieux and they were just not the same. If I could give a baseball analogy I look at Gretzky as a 2 tool player-offense and sense. Manny Ramirez is a 2 tool player-hit and hit for power but cannot throw,field or run with any great ability. Then you have Barry Bonds (juiced up I know) who can hit,hit for power,run,field and throw all with All Star ability. Orr is that guy who can do it all (minus the HGH).

I Love Orr!!!

I admire your love for the guys game,he was one in a million. I just think Wayne and Bobby are two in two million.

Apples and oranges for me.

 

[Stonefly]

As someone else said, the difference is that Orr did something completely different by being an offensive defenseman, so it was easier for him to blow away previous marks. Gretzky blew away previous marks of players that supposed to be doing the same thing he was --putting up points.

And every one of Gretzky's records are still standing now. He still has 6 more goals than anyone else has ever done, 16 more points and 49 more assists.
Orr on the other hand lost the goals record to Coffey, and is only 1 point ahead of Coffey and is only about 10 or 12 assists ahead of Coffey.

Gretzky has the top 2 goal totals ever, the top 4 point totals ever and the top 10 or 11 assist totals ever. Orr can't make anything close to that claim for defensemen.

Yes Coffey broke Orr's record for goals and came very close for assists and points. But there is a caveat. And it's a big one. Paul Coffey was a terrible defenseman!!! See the "Rate Paul Coffey's Play" thread.

 

[Stonefly]

I was the guy who made the 5 on 5 comment and the jockstrap comment which I saw quoted as "hyperbole" and stupid.I just saw it again in the quote you were replying to. I went into this for fun but insults have taken the fun out of it since we're not allowed to think "out of the box". I disagree with all the Gretzky backers but don't presume to have the right to denigrade or conclude any opinion,theory or idea is stupid.

I understand now.
I did not mean to insult anyone and apologize if i did. I'm pretty passionate about how i feel though and sometimes I may get a little fired up and carried away.
I love the 5 Orr argument. It makes total sense to me. I've used it myself. I believe the people who argue that its stupid have no imagination. It's that, or they actually did imagine 5 Orr's against 5 Gretzky's and didn't like how it ended. Lol.
How about this one too. They have both proved how they play in a team environment. We've seen that. So put them one on one. They can't shoot on the net until they are past the blueline and the net is 1 foot wide. Can you see Gretzky scoring even one goal?
One is better than the other.
"There can be only one."

 

[cgb]

Yes Coffey broke Orr's record for goals and came very close for assists and points. But there is a caveat. And it's a big one. Paul Coffey was a terrible defenseman!!! See the "Rate Paul Coffey's Play" thread.

You missed my point. Someone else brought up the fact that Orr had done so much better than the previous defensemen records.
My point had next to nothing to do with Paul Coffey orr Bobby Orr's defensive abilities.
I wanted to point out that while Orr did do that to the previous records, which is great by the way, someone equalled what Orr did just 15 (or less) years later. It's going on 25 years for Gretzky records and no one has really been too close to any of them.

I don't need to be convinced that Orr had abetter all-around game than Gretzky, I really don't think anyone does. But a lot of people have great all-around games (Howe, Bourque minus the fighting, Potvin, Messier and Yzerman minus the fighting) I don't think Orr's overall game was as much better than the others as Gretzky's offensive game was as much better than all others.

That's why I go Gretzky

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

For arguments sake,let's say a hockey player is evaluated on skating,speed,shooting,hockey intelligence,physical play,defensive acumen and offensive prowess. Orr is a better skater,Orr is a faster skater,Orr has a better shot,Orr has been called a hockey genius as has Gretzky,Orr was a very physical player,Orr played the best defense of the era whether you want to admit it or not.Orr's offense from the defensive position is at least equal to the offensive superiority of Gretzky taking into consideration the position. Orr's jockstrap would be far too heavy for Gretzky,he'd need Semenko to carry it. Overboard?Tough!Stupid?Good. As Sinden said in a game in the 70 playoffs "Bobby made 30 moves tonight noone had ever seen before"! Youtube videos cannot define the man and numbers and stats only begin to tell the story.You really had to be in the moment,in the experience when the picture was being painted,smelling the smoke and feeling the chills,revelling in the sheer beauty and genius of what was happening and looking at the fan crying beside you because you are in the presence for maybe the only time in your life of pure greatness. I've seen people weeping at the entrance of the New England Sports Museum watching the Bobby Orr highlight film. It truly is extraordinary to witness. Nice pass Gretz!

What colour was Orr's cape?

 

[Stonefly]

You missed my point. Someone else brought up the fact that Orr had done so much better than the previous defensemen records.
My point had next to nothing to do with Paul Coffey orr Bobby Orr's defensive abilities.
I wanted to point out that while Orr did do that to the previous records, which is great by the way, someone equalled what Orr did just 15 (or less) years later. It's going on 25 years for Gretzky records and no one has really been too close to any of them.

I don't need to be convinced that Orr had abetter all-around game than Gretzky, I really don't think anyone does. But a lot of people have great all-around games (Howe, Bourque minus the fighting, Potvin, Messier and Yzerman minus the fighting) I don't think Orr's overall game was as much better than the others as Gretzky's offensive game was as much better than all others.

That's why I go Gretzky[/QUO

I didn't miss your point. Bringing up Coffey's offensive achievements isn't valid. You would have to find someone who was as good defensively and broke Orr's records for it to make sense. Coffey wasn't even close.
Also I'm sure you're aware that Coffey played on the high flying Oilers when he accomplished what he did and Gretz and company were playing in a decade acknowledged to be focused on offense.
The decade after was just the opposite. Lemieux came very close to Gretzky by the way.

And yes his game was that much better than the others you listed there. Judging by your comments, you didn't see Orr play.