Orr Vs Gretzky

[BNHL]

In 1999, The Hockey News asked experts to select the most important regular season performance in NHL history. Bobby Orr's extraordinary 1969-70 season was the panel's first choice. That season, Orr became the first defenseman to lead the NHL in scoring, collecting 33 goals and 87 assists for 120 points and outscoring runner-up Phil Esposito by 21 points. He not only collected the Art Ross Trophy, but won the Hart Trophy as the NHL's most valuable player, was named the Norris Trophy winner as best defenseman for the third consecutive season and was selected to the First All-Star Team for a third straight time. The Boston Bruins went on to win the Stanley Cup — their first in 29 years — with Orr winning the Conn Smythe Trophy

 

[BNHL]

Ray Bourque has seen a lot since being the eighth overall pick in the 1979 NHL draft. But when he considers the best of the best ...

Toughest player he has faced
Mario Lemieux--over Wayne Gretzky

 

[Goose]

Orr should have been better. He probably would have taken the all time assists record, but Gretzky woulda broken it. No way would Borque have the defensive scoring title. Be crazy to think what he coulda done in the high flying 80's.

But alas, tis not to be. The second greatest might have coulda been. (Gardiner being #1)

who is Gardiner, that some sort of inside joke?

 

[Insta]

lol@ the 5 Gretzky's vs 5 Orr's argument. Hockey is not that simple. It is like saying Shaq is better than Nash at basketball since 5 Shaq's could beat 5 Steve Nash's even though they have completely different games and it is like comparing apples to oranges. Gretzky was the best offensive player to ever play the game and the NHL record book is basically Gretzky's name over and over again. I wont say either is better since you cant compare a d-man to a forward, just that you cant definitively say Orr is a better player.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

who is Gardiner, that some sort of inside joke?

No, he's the Blackhawks first ever starting goalie, he won the Stanley cup while dying. Reports have him suffering from blackouts and dizzy spells during games, but he still posted a 1.33 gaa (Improving on his 1.63 regular season average.) He died before the start of the next season.

 

[Goose]

Chuck Gardiner?

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Chuck Gardiner?

Yeah, sorry, shoulda specified.

 

[bruinforstanley]

just that you cant definitively say Orr is a better player.

Nor can you say Gretzky was better than Orr.

My take is simple.

Gretzky is the greatest offensive player of all time.

Orr is the greatest overall player of all time.

 

[Goose]

Yeah, sorry, shoulda specified.

Didn't realize he had that much talent... interesting.

 

[bruinforstanley]

Eventhough i'd take Orr with a gun to my head i'll have to respectfully disagree that you think it's Orr so clear cut.99 owns about every conceivable offensive record there is and has close to 3,000 points.He was the most dominant athlete of the 1980's(not just hockey player) and dominated his sport on a level for so long in such a manner that few athletes have in modern athletic history.His run in the game of hockey is absolutely stunningly dominant by anyones measuring stick.


It's close...................very,very close.I mean bag hair close.

I never thought i'd see the day wayne gretzky,WAYNE FREAKING GRETZKY, was under-rated..................but i sincerely feel he is around here. Don't ask me how a guy who dominated this game like he did for so long could ever get under-rated by hockey fans but i think he has been now that he has'nt played for a few years.


That's how i honestly feel.

Did you watch Orr play?

I followed Orr's career from Rookie to early retirement.

Taking nothing away from Gretzky, if I had to chose 1 player to start a hockey team around, it'd be Orr every day of the week and twice on sunday.

Gretzky could pass & score. THAT'S IT!

Orr could hold the puck for a period, if he wanted. He could pass. He could score. He was a GREAT defensman. He was a GREAT shot blocker. He was a GREAT skater. He had GREAT vision of the ice. He was EXTREMELY strong. He could beat the crap out of you. He could kill penalties. He controlled to pace of the game. As Bobby Clark said, after winning the '76 WC ....."Orr was better on one leg, than everyone else was on two legs", referring to the fact that Orr could barely walk, due to his knees.

Simply put, Gretzky couldn't hold Orr's jock in a test of ALL AROUND greatness.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Didn't realize he had that much talent... interesting.

I'm a believer that had he played a full career, he'd be viewed as the greatest goalie ever.

 

[bruinforstanley]

And if Orr had been protected a little better maybe we would have gotten to see him a bit more.

Orr didn't need protecting. He took care of himself.

What did him in were the numerous leg checks that took out his knees.

It was the only way you could stop him.

 

[BNHL]

lol@ the 5 Gretzky's vs 5 Orr's argument. Hockey is not that simple. It is like saying Shaq is better than Nash at basketball since 5 Shaq's could beat 5 Steve Nash's even though they have completely different games and it is like comparing apples to oranges. Gretzky was the best offensive player to ever play the game and the NHL record book is basically Gretzky's name over and over again. I wont say either is better since you cant compare a d-man to a forward, just that you cant definitively say Orr is a better player.

OK.How about Gretzky and 5 schmucks vs Orr and 5 schmucks? This whole thread is hypothetical,cmon!

 

[BNHL]

OK.How about Gretzky and 5 schmucks vs Orr and 5 schmucks? This whole thread is hypothetical,cmon!

The goalie's one of the schmucks btw.

 

[DayWalk3r]

Bobby Orr for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psKzbo0vC6I

also, I've uploaded a vid with Bobby Orr that you see above. Check it out if you haven't seen it

 

[bruinforstanley]

Bobby Orr for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psKzbo0vC6I

also, I've uploaded a vid with Bobby Orr that you see above. Check it out if you haven't seen it

That about say's it all (and shows it all)

 

[espo*]

Did you watch Orr play?

I followed Orr's career from Rookie to early retirement.

Taking nothing away from Gretzky, if I had to chose 1 player to start a hockey team around, it'd be Orr every day of the week and twice on sunday.

Gretzky could pass & score. THAT'S IT!

Orr could hold the puck for a period, if he wanted. He could pass. He could score. He was a GREAT defensman. He was a GREAT shot blocker. He was a GREAT skater. He had GREAT vision of the ice. He was EXTREMELY strong. He could beat the crap out of you. He could kill penalties. He controlled to pace of the game. As Bobby Clark said, after winning the '76 WC ....."Orr was better on one leg, than everyone else was on two legs", referring to the fact that Orr could barely walk, due to his knees.

Simply put, Gretzky couldn't hold Orr's jock in a test of ALL AROUND greatness.

I've seen Orr play of course.I did say he would be my pick if push came to shove did i not? i just don't think it's like comparing hamburger to filet mignon like some people are making it out to be.

You say Gretzky could only pass and score well but you forgot to mention that he could pass and score better then anybody that's ever played the game,care to think about just how important that is to a team and what it does for a team? after all, if you don't score goals you dont win hockey games. I don't know about you but i'll gladly take a guy on my team who is 3 times more productive at putting pucks in the net of the other team then the next best guy anyday of the week...................that's a pretty handy guy to have around.Don't believe it? ask the coaching staff of the pittsburgh penguins......and Crosby ain't dominating the game like Gretzky did yet i'll tell you that.

The guy was phenomenal,the most damaging offensive force in the history of the game bar none and the records speak for themselves.Peoples memories are very short it would seem and i don't care if he did'nt block shots,you put up offensive numbers like he put up you don't need to block shots thank you very much............get someone else to block the f'in shots,anyone can block shots if they want to.Not everyone can make mincemeat out of the opposition and think 2 plays ahead of everyone else..............Wayne could.

Players like that come around about as much as Haley's comet.

When the guy was in his prime he literally made hockey fans wonder just how great was great anymore.No-one knew what to make of what he was accomplishing,our sense of hockey history was offended because he was destroying every conceivable offensive benchmark there was.I don''t mean raising the bar,i 'm talking taking the bar and throwing it out the damn window!! he was winning scoring races by 65 points in those days,that was about half a seasons work for most big scorers at the time!!. Anyway you cut it that's just incredible. And he did it at every level at every place of competition there was domestic or international,simply put the guy delivered the goods every bit as much as a legend like Orr did whether anyone likes it or not.Gretzky was every bit the prodigy bobby was,not the same type of player but every bit the star........don't kid yourself.

I'll say it again,people's memories are very,very short.

No offense but i'll turn your question around and ask you...................did you ever see gretzky play the game?

Sometimes i wonder around here.

Gretzky not CLOSE to Orr?Could'nt hold his jockstrap? Cmon folks.

I love Bobby Orr.................but i refuse to go that far,and for good reason.

Honestly,i feeel so silly for having to defend a guy with the acheivements and stature of a guy like Gretzky in the game of hockey.It's the equivalent of being on a soccer board and having to defend Pele.

Gretzky could'nt hold so and so's jockstrap should never enter the conversation..............................with any player that's ever played.

 

[espo*]

...

 

[BNHL]

I've seen Orr play of course.I did say he would be my pick if push came to shove did i not? i just don't think it's like comparing hamburger to filet mignon like some people are making it out to be.

You say Gretzky could only pass and score well but you forgot to mention that he could pass and score better then anybody that's ever played the game,care to think about just how important that is to a team and what it does for a team? after all, if you don't score goals you dont win hockey games. I don't know about you but i'll gladly take a guy on my team who is 3 times more productive at putting pucks in the net of the other team then the next best guy anyday of the week...................that's a pretty handy guy to have around.Don't believe it? ask the coaching staff of the pittsburgh penguins......and Crosby ain't dominating the game like Gretzky did yet i'll tell you that.

The guy was phenomenal,the most damaging offensive force in the history of the game bar none and the records speak for themselves.Peoples memories are very short it would seem and i don't care if he did'nt block shots,you put up offensive numbers like he put up you don't need to block shots thank you very much............get someone else to block the f'in shots,anyone can block shots if they want to.Not everyone can make mincemeat out of the opposition and think 2 plays ahead of everyone else..............Wayne could.

Players like that come around about as much as Haley's comet.

When the guy was in his prime he literally made hockey fans wonder just how great was great anymore.No-one knew what to make of what he was accomplishing,our sense of hockey history was offended because he was destroying every conceivable offensive benchmark there was.I don''t mean raising the bar,i 'm talking taking the bar and throwing it out the damn window!! he was winning scoring races by 65 points in those days,that was about half a seasons work for most big scorers at the time!!. Anyway you cut it that's just incredible. And he did it at every level at every place of competition there was domestic or international,simply put the guy delivered the goods every bit as much as a legend like Orr did whether anyone likes it or not.Gretzky was every bit the prodigy bobby was,not the same type of player but every bit the star........don't kid yourself.

I'll say it again,people's memories are very,very short.

No offense but i'll turn your question around and ask you...................did you ever see gretzky play the game?

Sometimes i wonder around here.

Gretzky not CLOSE to Orr?Could'nt hold his jockstrap? Cmon folks.

I love Bobby Orr.................but i refuse to go that far,and for good reason.

Honestly,i feeel so silly for having to defend a guy with the acheivements and stature of a guy like Gretzky in the game of hockey.It's the equivalent of being on a soccer board and having to defend Pele.

Gretzky could'nt hold so and so's jockstrap should never enter the conversation..............................with any player that's ever played.

I wish I had saved it but I saw Crosby's numbers his first 2 years compared to Gretzky's first 2 years taking into account the number of goals on average scored in an NHL game then and now and Crosby's numbers were better.

 

[espo*]

Early yet............gretzky exploded in the years after that.

Will Crosby?

 

[Ogopogo*]

You know, I really do like Orr. I have nothing against the man whatsoever, I prefer Gretzky.

Now, some of the ridiculous posts in this thread really tarnish Orr's image. Stuff like "Gretzky couldn't hold Orr's jockstrap" is just so stupid that I can't believe someone would post that. "5 Orrs would beat 5 Gretzky's because Gretzky couldn't stop Orr and Gretzky couldn't score against Orr" - Come on, are we 8 years old?

Orr fans who spew foolish things like that knock Orr down a rung or two. This kind of stuff really tarnishes the image of a great player.

Why not relax and post stuff that makes sense instead of smearing Orr's name with stupidity?

 

[Masao]

You know, I really do like Orr. I have nothing against the man whatsoever, I prefer Gretzky.

Now, some of the ridiculous posts in this thread really tarnish Orr's image. Stuff like "Gretzky couldn't hold Orr's jockstrap" is just so stupid that I can't believe someone would post that. "5 Orrs would beat 5 Gretzky's because Gretzky couldn't stop Orr and Gretzky couldn't score against Orr" - Come on, are we 8 years old?

Orr fans who spew foolish things like that knock Orr down a rung or two. This kind of stuff really tarnishes the image of a great player.

Why not relax and post stuff that makes sense instead of smearing Orr's name with stupidity?

Just in the name of dicussion... I don't think it really matters.

In any case, I don't think Bobby Orr really ever showed his true potential, because his career was mutilated by injuries. Same thing for Mario Lemieux.

Another thing, has anyone ever compiled stats to compare how many points Orr scored in Boston as opposed to other cities? Because some old arenas like the Boston or Buffalo ones were smaller than other NHL rinks, so perhaps rushing all the way through the ice like Orr used to do may have been easier in Boston.

 

[Stonefly]

Ok Ogopogo, maybe this will makes sense to you.
And Cyclops you speak of Gretz throwing the bar out the window by how much he was bettering everyone else. Check this out.

I think we would all agree that comparing Orr and Gretzky accurately is quite difficult because they played different positions. So may i suggest we compare how much better they were than the next best player in their relative positions. To do so let's use some stats. This should keep the pro Gretz camp happy as this is their number one(and pretty much only) argument to validate their claim.

The "previous" numbers listed below are from the next closest player that they surpassed..
This info is directly out of The Hockey News - 100 Greatest Players Book.

Starting with Gretzky. Highest Goals in a Season - 92
Previous highest goals in a season 76. A 21% increase.

Highest assists in a season - 163.
Previous highest assists in a season - 102. A 60% increase.

Highest points in a season - 215.
Previous highest points in a season - 152. A 41% increase.

Very impressive indeed. Now lets look at how much better Orr was then his peers.

Highest Goals in a season - 46.
Previous highest goals in a season - 24. A 92% increase!!!!

Highest assists in a season - 102.
Previous highest assists in a season 52. A 96% increase!!!!!!

Highest points in a season - 139.
Previous highest points in a season - 63. A 121% increase!!!!!!

Uhhhh,,,,, yeah....
Orr put up those ridiculous numbers and was still the best defenseman at the same time.
If you don't understand how a complete player who is so good at everything is better than the best one dimensional player than your logic is clearly impaired.

 

[04' hockey]

Because some old arenas like the Boston or Buffalo ones were smaller than other NHL rinks, so perhaps rushing all the way through the ice like Orr used to do may have been easier in Boston.

How does LESS skating room to maneuver make things easier?

 

[espo*]

Ok Ogopogo, maybe this will makes sense to you.
And Cyclops you speak of Gretz throwing the bar out the window by how much he was bettering everyone else. Check this out.

I think we would all agree that comparing Orr and Gretzky accurately is quite difficult because they played different positions. So may i suggest we compare how much better they were than the next best player in their relative positions. To do so let's use some stats. This should keep the pro Gretz camp happy as this is their number one(and pretty much only) argument to validate their claim.

The "previous" numbers listed below are from the next closest player that they surpassed..
This info is directly out of The Hockey News - 100 Greatest Players Book.

Starting with Gretzky. Highest Goals in a Season - 92
Previous highest goals in a season 76. A 21% increase.

Highest assists in a season - 163.
Previous highest assists in a season - 102. A 60% increase.

Highest points in a season - 215.
Previous highest points in a season - 152. A 41% increase.

Very impressive indeed. Now lets look at how much better Orr was then his peers.

Highest Goals in a season - 46.
Previous highest goals in a season - 24. A 92% increase!!!!

Highest assists in a season - 102.
Previous highest assists in a season 52. A 96% increase!!!!!!

Highest points in a season - 139.
Previous highest points in a season - 63. A 121% increase!!!!!!

Uhhhh,,,,, yeah....
Orr put up those ridiculous numbers and was still the best defenseman at the same time.
If you don't understand how a complete player who is so good at everything is better than the best one dimensional player than your logic is clearly impaired.

our logics impaired? by showing me that Gretzky and Orr made mincemeat out of what was previousely thought possible? we've all already said,I already said that!!!

This isn't new,we all know those guys did what was previousely thought impossible. My point is,how can anyone that has the dominance that is in Bobby's class not be considered to be able to "hold his jockstrap"

because he blocked shots better? could throw his fists better?

You'll have to de better then that for me.

calling Orr better then Gretzky.............. i have no issue.

Saying Gretzky isn't in Orr's league................you better have something more on the table then shot blocking.

The guy has over 1,000 goals and close to 3,000 points and dominated at every level. He's in Orr's league.

And for the last time i'm not in anyone's camp,i even said i prefer Orr for God's sake.The only "camp" i'm trying to avoid being in is the "going overboard" camp. That's the camp with the "could'nt hold Orr's jockstrap" comments.Just keep me out of that one please.

because it's out of control hyperbole.