Orr Vs Gretzky

[Dark Shadows]

Curious as to how you can quantify the argument that Gretzky would have "definitely" scored less had Bobby Orr not played in the NHL?

Bobby Orr, in revolutionizing the position of defenseman and opening the doors for all those young defensemen to start jumping into the play more, while influencing the Bruins firewagon offensive style and thus, many other teams in following in their footsteps is why the 80's became the highest scoring era ever.

Teams began allowing their defensemen to do things they would often have been benched for before Orr came along, which lead to more goals being scored by both teams since nobody could play both ends of the ice like Orr could.

Even in the first year of Expansion in 67-68, the absolute worst GA team in the NHL only had 257 goals against, while most hovered around 180-220 goals against. Even if you adjust it for the 6 less games played, it is still far far less than the 80's teams, which had abandoned defense in favor of seeing who could score the most while paying much less attention to keeping them out of their own nets. By the 80's, the worst teams were flirting with 400 goals against, while the majority of teams were allowing 330 goals against or worse.

 

[Dark Shadows]

If a defenseman came around who played excellent defensively while putting up 120 points for 10 seasons and 5 more 100 pt seasons, winning 12 Norrisses and 8 Harts... Is Orr still better than him?

At their absolute peak, Orr was better.
But that is only one part of what makes a player great.

Well, the original poster was looking strictly at peak, and wondering what Orr might have done with modern technology/Medical treatment prolonging his career. Which is why many people are wondering why the career argument keeps being brought up.

 

[habsjunkie2*]

Excellent point.

I was just looking through the book "Blades on Ice: A Century of Professional Hockey" by Frank Orr and Chrys Goyens. There's a great interview with Jean Beliveau, in which he discusses Bobby Orr. Here are some excerpts:



Orr's legacy lives on today. The emphasis on speed and the transition game really began with Bobby. We take it for granted when we see kids like Drew Doughty or Tyler Myers jumping into the play, leading the attack, running the powerplay, but it was Bobby Orr who invented the entire strategy.

Don't take it from me, take it from Jean Beliveau.

I'm not knocking Bobby, I'm defending Wayne. There are many quotes from different players describing how great Wayne was too. I know Orr was great and helped revolutionize the game, but why is Gretzky punished by this?

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Well, the original poster was looking strictly at peak, and wondering what Orr might have done with modern technology/Medical treatment prolonging his career. Which is why many people are wondering why the career argument keeps being brought up.

Lol, that's what happens when you hop into a 20 page thread only bothering to read the subject of the OP.

Anyways, I do still think their peaks are debatable. I believe Orr slightly edges him in the regular season (Gretzky repeated his peak more than Orr did), but Gretzky's playoff and international performances are not getting enough weight here. There has simply never been a tournament performer like him before.

 

[habsjunkie2*]

Well, the original poster was looking strictly at peak, and wondering what Orr might have done with modern technology/Medical treatment prolonging his career. Which is why many people are wondering why the career argument keeps being brought up.

I guess I should have read the original post too. lol. Anyways boys, it has been fun as usual.

 

[Rhiessan71]

If a defenseman came around who played excellent defensively while putting up 120 points for 10 seasons and 5 more 100 pt seasons, winning 12 Norrisses and 8 Harts... Is Orr still better than him?

At their absolute peak, Orr was better.
But that is only one part of what makes a player great.

I'll answer your hypothetical with another one.
What if...a center came into the league now in today's game, who dominated physically and defensively that averaged 150 points for 10 seasons with another 5 more 120 point seasons, winning 8 Harts and 12 Selke's...is Gretzky still better than him?

 

[bleeney]

Bobby Orr, in revolutionizing the position of defenseman and opening the doors for all those young defensemen to start jumping into the play more, while influencing the Bruins firewagon offensive style and thus, many other teams in following in their footsteps is why the 80's became the highest scoring era ever.

Teams began allowing their defensemen to do things they would often have been benched for before Orr came along, which lead to more goals being scored by both teams since nobody could play both ends of the ice like Orr could.

Even in the first year of Expansion in 67-68, the absolute worst GA team in the NHL only had 257 goals against, while most hovered around 180-220 goals against. Even if you adjust it for the 6 less games played, it is still far far less than the 80's teams, which had abandoned defense in favor of seeing who could score the most while paying much less attention to keeping them out of their own nets. By the 80's, the worst teams were flirting with 400 goals against, while the majority of teams were allowing 330 goals against or worse.

Well said, Dark Shadows.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

I'll answer your hypothetical with another one.
What if...a center came into the league now in today's game, who dominated physically and defensively that averaged 150 points for 10 seasons with another 5 more 120 point seasons, winning 8 Harts and 12 Selke's...is Gretzky still better than him?

Probably not. I'd probably go with Super Howe in that case.

 

[shazariahl]

Lol, that's what happens when you hop into a 20 page thread only bothering to read the subject of the OP.

Anyways, I do still think their peaks are debatable. I believe Orr slightly edges him in the regular season (Gretzky repeated his peak more than Orr did), but Gretzky's playoff and international performances are not getting enough weight here. There has simply never been a tournament performer like him before.

4 Canada Cups, and he led the entire tournament in scoring in all 4. You'd think, just once, he'd have had an off tournament or something, but he didn't. His resume in international play is phenominal. Having one of the greatest post-season resumes doesn't hurt either (I say 1 of, because its either him or Roy. Take your pick).

 

[bleeney]

Some observations about Orr's skating, at ice level, from those who shared the ice with him:

Boom Boom Geoffrion was a teammate of Richard, Beliveau and Harvey on that fabulous Hab dynasty of the late 50s. He also went head to head 14 times a year against Howe, Hull, Mahovlich, Bathgate, Keon, Kelly etc. He had this to say:

"First time I saw Orr, I was coming down the wing on him. He was skating faster than me backward. I can see I can't get around him so I wind up and shoot. He falls and blocks the shot. I stop then turn to chase him. I look up, he's twenty yards the other way. I been playing hockey a long time, but I never saw anyone move like that"
-from The Last Hurrah: A Celebration of Hockey's Greatest Season '66-'67; pg 28

(Just another play single-handedly broken up by Orr, followed by a lightning-quick transition into the offensive zone...)

Orr also had a shifty elusiveness in his arsenal of moves:

"Bobby would be coming at you one-on-one, and, all of a sudden, he would be eight or ten feet on either side of his original path for no obvious reason, a little spooky, in fact," said Serge Savard."
-from Remembering Bobby Orr; pg 88

I can't imagine how defensemen must've felt with Orr coming down on them...

This is from Phil Esposito:

"I doubt we ever saw his top speed because he was as fast as he needed to be in a particular situation. No matter how fast an opponent was, Bobby could skate faster than him if he needed to do it in the framework of a play. If he was caught up the ice and the other team had an odd-man rush, that's when you saw his truly great speed. Very seldom did he not get back to have a hand in breaking up the play. To have seen his ultimate speed would have needed a play faster than any in hockey history".
-from Remembering Bobby Orr; pg 77-78

Orr always seemed to have an extra gear, one which he could instantaneously access without any noticeable difference in his stride; similar to his lateral movement that Savard said would occur for "no obvious reason". Ted Green said he had "eighteen speeds of fast". It's also interesting that Espo says his fastest speeds came in a defensive role, getting back into the play if he was caught up ice.

 

[Maupin Fan]

Bobby Orr, in revolutionizing the position of defenseman and opening the doors for all those young defensemen to start jumping into the play more, while influencing the Bruins firewagon offensive style and thus, many other teams in following in their footsteps is why the 80's became the highest scoring era ever.

Teams began allowing their defensemen to do things they would often have been benched for before Orr came along, which lead to more goals being scored by both teams since nobody could play both ends of the ice like Orr could.

Even in the first year of Expansion in 67-68, the absolute worst GA team in the NHL only had 257 goals against, while most hovered around 180-220 goals against. Even if you adjust it for the 6 less games played, it is still far far less than the 80's teams, which had abandoned defense in favor of seeing who could score the most while paying much less attention to keeping them out of their own nets. By the 80's, the worst teams were flirting with 400 goals against, while the majority of teams were allowing 330 goals against or worse.

I still don't fully agree with this assessment. I would argue that WHA merger along with teams possibly emulating the Oilers may have had more to do with the scoring spike. Looking at the GA numbers, they really started to increase in 80-81, a year after the merger. Looking at GA numbers in the 80's, I saw a sharp increase in the GA in the Campbell Conference in the 80's, coincidentally once the Oilers began having success.

Also, if you look at the goals against numbers by conference instead of league wide throughout the 80's, many if not most teams in the Wales conference were allowing less than 300 goals per season.

81-82 (first season of realigned divisions) Campbell avg GA 338, Wales 302

83-84 (first season all Campbell teams allowed >300 GA) Campbell avg GA 339, Wales 294

87-88 (Wayne's last Edm season) Campbell avg GA 317, Wales 280

Looking at these numbers, an argument can be made that possibly teams emulating the success and style of the Oilers of the 80's had more to do with the high scoring era that Wayne played in rather than Bobby Orr being the reason, as it seems pretty clear that scoring stayed fairly constant in the Campbell yet decreased in the Wales.

I agree with almost all of what you said, but I don't buy the argument that Wayne Gretzky wouldn't have scored as much without Bobby Orr. Wayne outdistanced his peers in a similar way that Bobby Orr did numbers wise, which leads me to believe that he would have achieved his numbers regardless.

I tend to believe that Wayne would have been the first Bobby if not for Bobby rather than Wayne would not have been as great if not for the influence of Bobby.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Straight Line

Some observations about Orr's skating, at ice level, from those who shared the ice with him:

Boom Boom Geoffrion was a teammate of Richard, Beliveau and Harvey on that fabulous Hab dynasty of the late 50s. He also went head to head 14 times a year against Howe, Hull, Mahovlich, Bathgate, Keon, Kelly etc. He had this to say:


(Just another play single-handedly broken up by Orr, followed by a lightning-quick transition into the offensive zone...)

Orr also had a shifty elusiveness in his arsenal of moves:


I can't imagine how defensemen must've felt with Orr coming down on them...

This is from Phil Esposito:

Orr always seemed to have an extra gear, one which he could instantaneously access without any noticeable difference in his stride; similar to his lateral movement that Savard said would occur for "no obvious reason". Ted Green said he had "eighteen speeds of fast". It's also interesting that Espo says his fastest speeds came in a defensive role, getting back into the play if he was caught up ice.

Bobby Orr had the unique ability to recognize and execute the best straight line option to the point of intersection.

Catching a slower player from behind or the side is commonplace. You can see it happen every weekend at minor hockey games at the local arena.

Bobby Orr had a unique sense and vision combined with skating ability that allowed him to cut the player with the puck on a break towards the net at a point where he could simply strip him of the puck and transition. It's one thing to catch and foul, another to catch and impede but it's truly unique to catch and transition.

 

[OrrNumber4]

It is interesting to ntoe that both Orr and Gretzky shared a weakness in that they both had trouble against top-notch goaltending...both players were obviously great, but neither possessed the raw goalscoring ability requried to score on a hot goaltender in the playoffs...something that, oddly enough and IMO, Lemieux had in spades. But Lemieux lacked the sheer vision and hockey sense of Orr and Gretzky...

 

[OrrNumber4]

Bobby Orr had the unique ability to recognize and execute the best straight line option to the point of intersection.

Catching a slower player from behind or the side is commonplace. You can see it happen every weekend at minor hockey games at the local arena.

Bobby Orr had a unique sense and vision combined with skating ability that allowed him to cut the player with the puck on a break towards the net at a point where he could simply strip him of the puck and transition. It's one thing to catch and foul, another to catch and impede but it's truly unique to catch and transition.

This is a great observation, but IMO it really holds doubly true for Gretzky.

I personally pick Bobby Orr, because watching him play there is no doubt in my eyes that he is the greatest, most talented player I've ever seen.

Gretzky was the kind of guy who put up tons of points and achieved a lot of success while rarely wowing you. But when you slowed down the replays, you could see the tiny miniscule things he would do...

 

[Rhiessan71]

I still don't fully agree with this assessment. I would argue that WHA merger along with teams possibly emulating the Oilers may have had more to do with the scoring spike. Looking at the GA numbers, they really started to increase in 80-81, a year after the merger. Looking at GA numbers in the 80's, I saw a sharp increase in the GA in the Campbell Conference in the 80's, coincidentally once the Oilers began having success.

Also, if you look at the goals against numbers by conference instead of league wide throughout the 80's, many if not most teams in the Wales conference were allowing less than 300 goals per season.

81-82 (first season of realigned divisions) Campbell avg GA 338, Wales 302

83-84 (first season all Campbell teams allowed >300 GA) Campbell avg GA 339, Wales 294

87-88 (Wayne's last Edm season) Campbell avg GA 317, Wales 280

Looking at these numbers, an argument can be made that possibly teams emulating the success and style of the Oilers of the 80's had more to do with the high scoring era that Wayne played in rather than Bobby Orr being the reason, as it seems pretty clear that scoring stayed fairly constant in the Campbell yet decreased in the Wales.

I agree with almost all of what you said, but I don't buy the argument that Wayne Gretzky wouldn't have scored as much without Bobby Orr. Wayne outdistanced his peers in a similar way that Bobby Orr did numbers wise, which leads me to believe that he would have achieved his numbers regardless.

I tend to believe that Wayne would have been the first Bobby if not for Bobby rather than Wayne would not have been as great if not for the influence of Bobby.

Of course that would be ignoring the fact that Bobby opened things up long before the WHA was even a sparkle in MacFarland's eye.
Orr's first season was 67/68 and it took a long time for teams to accept the idea of the rushing Dman, to recognize them, draft them and let them play that way, let the whole team play that way for that matter.

If it wasn't for Orr, the Oilers trying an up tempo, transition game would of still been many, many years away.
The Oilers may have perfected the run and gun style but make no mistake, Orr was the player that even made the thought of playing that way at the NHL level a possibility.

Also, it's not like goal scoring suddenly exploded with the addition of the WHA teams.
There was a steady increase starting in the late 60's, peaking in the mid 80's before steadily declining.
In fact, league goal scoring was pretty much identical in the year before the WHA merged to the year that they did, 7.0 goals per game to 7.03 goals per game.

You also talk about other teams emulating the Oilers....well who do you think the Oilers were emulating.....yeah, that's right, Orr's Bruins.

Seriously though, you listen to anyone and I mean anyone talking about Bobby in his early years and I would bet a years pay that at some point they mention how Orr didn't just change the game, he turned it on its' head.

Honestly, trying to discount in any way the enormous and ear shattering effect Orr had on the game is a fool's folly. It's not even debatable, it's a fact.

 

[Maupin Fan]

Of course that would be ignoring the fact that Bobby opened things up long before the WHA was even a sparkle in MacFarland's eye.
Orr's first season was 67/68 and it took a long time for teams to accept the idea of the rushing Dman, to recognize them, draft them and let them play that way, let the whole team play that way for that matter.

If it wasn't for Orr, the Oilers trying an up tempo, transition game would of still been many, many years away.
The Oilers may have perfected the run and gun style but make no mistake, Orr was the player that even made the thought of playing that way at the NHL level a possibility.

Also, it's not like goal scoring suddenly exploded with the addition of the WHA teams.
There was a steady increase starting in the late 60's, peaking in the mid 80's before steadily declining.
In fact, league goal scoring was pretty much identical in the year before the WHA merged to the year that they did, 7.0 goals per game to 7.03 goals per game.

You also talk about other teams emulating the Oilers....well who do you think the Oilers were emulating.....yeah, that's right, Orr's Bruins.

Many of your arguments rely on denigrating the accomplishments of Wayne in order to make Bobby look better. Over ten pages, it seems to be that you either say that 1.) Wayne only achieved what he did because of Bobby, or 2.) Wayne only achieved what he did because of the era he played in, which was also a result of Bobby. Neither are necessarily true nor are they actual arguments for Bobby. We all understand that you are a HUGE Bobby fan boy and will downplay Wayne to make Bobby look better.

Let me clarify something, I believe that no one has ever had more physical talent for hockey than Bobby Orr. He could literally do everything you would ever ask a hockey player to do. Everything, including a lot of things Gretzky couldn't. To me he is the greatest ever, but not the one with the best career. Best and best career are always different.

However, your whole post is based on speculation. You can't quantify the statement that the Oilers would not have played the style they played if not for Bobby Orr and the Bruins. There always has to be a first to do anything. That style could have been invented by Coffey and Gretzky without Orr, or it may not have. To say one way or the other is patently false.

Second, understand the point about goal scoring, but once again you are looking at it as a LEAGUE when talking of 7 vs 7.03 rather than by CONFERENCE as I broke down in my post. Thus, if league averages were increasing throughout the early 80's, it wasn't because of the Wales, it was because of the Campbell, where the Oilers were setting the pace and setting the blueprint that other teams were copying for winning in the 80's.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Many of your arguments rely on denigrating the accomplishments of Wayne in order to make Bobby look better. Over ten pages, it seems to be that you either say that 1.) Wayne only achieved what he did because of Bobby, or 2.) Wayne only achieved what he did because of the era he played in, which was also a result of Bobby. Neither are necessarily true nor are they actual arguments for Bobby. We all understand that you are a HUGE Bobby fan boy and will downplay Wayne to make Bobby look better.

Let me clarify something, I believe that no one has ever had more physical talent for hockey than Bobby Orr. He could literally do everything you would ever ask a hockey player to do. Everything, including a lot of things Gretzky couldn't. To me he is the greatest ever, but not the one with the best career. Best and best career are always different.

However, your whole post is based on speculation. You can't quantify the statement that the Oilers would not have played the style they played if not for Bobby Orr and the Bruins. There always has to be a first to do anything. That style could have been invented by Coffey and Gretzky without Orr, or it may not have. To say one way or the other is patently false.

Second, understand the point about goal scoring, but once again you are looking at it as a LEAGUE when talking of 7 vs 7.03 rather than by CONFERENCE as I broke down in my post. Thus, if league averages were increasing throughout the early 80's, it wasn't because of the Wales, it was because of the Campbell, where the Oilers were setting the pace and setting the blueprint that other teams were copying for winning in the 80's.

I have all the respect in the world for Wayne, best offensive player in NHL history, no question.
I think you have it backwards though.
You are the one trying to take away from Orr to make it seem like Gretzky and his Oilers were the ones that opened the game up.
Hate to break it to ya but Orr's Bruins in the early 70's were the ones that invented the run and gun, not the Oilers.
The Bruins and mainly Orr opened the game up and were the ones that established the most important thing of all.....that you could win with that style.
All the Oilers did was take that run and gun and play it with even more emphasis on the offensive side.
Without Orr, the league would of been decades behind and the league Wayne entered would of been a very different one.

Where Gretzky raised the production of anyone he played with, Orr raised the production of anyone that played period.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Dryden and Parent

It is interesting to ntoe that both Orr and Gretzky shared a weakness in that they both had trouble against top-notch goaltending...both players were obviously great, but neither possessed the raw goalscoring ability requried to score on a hot goaltender in the playoffs...something that, oddly enough and IMO, Lemieux had in spades. But Lemieux lacked the sheer vision and hockey sense of Orr and Gretzky...

Orr did better against Dryden in the 1971 playoffs and Parent in 1974 then he did against Worsley, Vachon,level goalies.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/o/orrbo01.html

Gretzky bounced back against Billy Smith in 1984 and did okay against Roy in 1993.

 

[Maupin Fan]

I have all the respect in the world for Wayne, best offensive player in NHL history, no question.
I think you have it backwards though.
You are the one trying to take away from Orr to make it seem like Gretzky and his Oilers were the ones that opened the game up.
Hate to break it to ya but Orr's Bruins in the early 70's were the ones that invented the run and gun, not the Oilers.
The Bruins and mainly Orr opened the game up and were the ones that established the most important thing of all.....that you could win with that style.
All the Oilers did was take that run and gun and play it with even more emphasis on the offensive side.
Without Orr, the league would of been decades behind and the league Wayne entered would of been a very different one.

Where Gretzky raised the production of anyone he played with, Orr raised the production of anyone that played period.

Incorrect. You first asserted that Gretzky "definitely" not scored as much as he did if not for Bobby Orr.

I asked for you to provide factual information to quantify that assertion, as in any way that can prove that. Dark Shadows offered an explanation, some of which I agree with, the numbers part was skewed.

I offered the view that maybe the era was so high scoring because teams were emulating the contemporaneous success of the Oilers, not the success of a team ten years prior. I then offered numbers from each conference to support the view that teams in the Campbell were playing different hockey than in the Wales.

No where in any of my posts did I suggest that the Oilers started the run and gun style. I'm not sure where you are deriving that from but it wasn't from anythng I said.

Secondly, team personnel defines style. To suggest that the Oilers would have never been able to figure out how to play the style they played without Orr and the Bruins is not necessarily a fact, yet you use it as one when saying that Orr is responsible for the 80's Oilers. I'm quite sure that the Oilers had the firepower to figure out how to put the puck in the net whether or not the Bruins of the 70's had existed.

Also, please provide factual evidence that supports the assertion that Bobby Orr raised the production of anyone that played period.

 

[Starchild74]

Of course that would be ignoring the fact that Bobby opened things up long before the WHA was even a sparkle in MacFarland's eye.
Orr's first season was 67/68 and it took a long time for teams to accept the idea of the rushing Dman, to recognize them, draft them and let them play that way, let the whole team play that way for that matter.

If it wasn't for Orr, the Oilers trying an up tempo, transition game would of still been many, many years away.
The Oilers may have perfected the run and gun style but make no mistake, Orr was the player that even made the thought of playing that way at the NHL level a possibility.

Also, it's not like goal scoring suddenly exploded with the addition of the WHA teams.
There was a steady increase starting in the late 60's, peaking in the mid 80's before steadily declining.
In fact, league goal scoring was pretty much identical in the year before the WHA merged to the year that they did, 7.0 goals per game to 7.03 goals per game.

You also talk about other teams emulating the Oilers....well who do you think the Oilers were emulating.....yeah, that's right, Orr's Bruins.

Seriously though, you listen to anyone and I mean anyone talking about Bobby in his early years and I would bet a years pay that at some point they mention how Orr didn't just change the game, he turned it on its' head.

Honestly, trying to discount in any way the enormous and ear shattering effect Orr had on the game is a fool's folly. It's not even debatable, it's a fact.

Yes Bobby Orr was the first defenceman to truly change how defenceman would play in future years. He was a pioneer no question about that. However you are wrong on one major thing. The Edmonton Oilers were not molded out of the Boston Bruins. THe Oilers only had one defenceman that could go end to end like a Bobby Orr and in a lot of ways Paul Coffey was the only defenceman since to even come close to Bobby Orr, When I say close I mean as close as one could get to Bobby Orr

When Glenn Sather took over the Edmonton Oilers as coach in the WHA and when they came to the NHL. He first modeled the Oilers after the Montreal Canadiens. A proud franchise who could play in your face hockey but had skill. Yes I know most do not think of the Canadiens as a team that had alot of offence but they did. It was not the offence per say it was more the attitude that when the Oilers put on their jersey they were unified. The crest on their jersey was more important then just one player.

Glenn Sather saw how the Winnipeg Jets played and thought that the European influence there was the way to go. He put a team together that was fast and skilled. The Oilers used quite a bit of Europeans on their team especially Finnish players as they were not considered as prolific as Swedish players

I hate to burst your bubble but Orr neither the Bruins were not the reason the Oilers played a run and gun. It was becasue of European influences and Sather figured that since Gretzky was so good he would build a team around him and the way he played

So if any team deserves credit for the style that teams played in the 80's it was the Winnipeg Jets. Before them anytime an NHL team looked at Europeans they were looking for the ones that they figured could adapt to the NHL. In the 80's Europeans started coming over and it was more about letting them play their game and adapting it to their team.

Players come along and change the game Eddie Shore, Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Patrick Roy etc...Even players like Cam Neely or Bill Barber changed the game in their own way. To say that the only reason the NHL ended up the way it did is because of Bobby Orr is not true. He was main reason but it ws the changing of the old guard. With more teams in the NHL it meant different ideas of how to win. Some worked others didn't. I mean Washington tried changing goalies every whistle one year.

A team with the likes of Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier, Jari Kurri, Paul Coffey, Glenn Anderson can only play one way. The way they did. In the words of Glenn Sather, and I appologize if I get the quote wrong but he once said. " We saw what the Jets were doing in Winnipeg with the European style and it was working for them. The only reason why we had success in the NHL and they didn't, is we had better players"

 

[quasi1981]

What I am reading a lot of is a debate over "Who was the best at their absolute best?"

Which is a great question to ask, but only a piece of the puzzle. I do believe Orr at his absolute best is slightly ahead of Gretzky (though Gretzky demolishes him in the playoffs at peak, and that just might tilt it in his favor).

But that's not enough. A forward with 5 years of 230 pts, 220, 190, 180, 160 and then a couple injury plagued seasons before retiring is not better than Wayne Gretzky, despite hitting a greater peak at his absolute best.

Gretzky is a rare combination of elite peak, prime and career that is really unmatched (one or two can match the peak, and one the career - but no one has them all).

The way I see it:
Both Gretzky and Orr have 4 unbelievable seasons, which have never really been matched. If Orr has an advantage here, it is not large.

Gretzky then has 4 years that are amongst the best ever (160+ pts), while Orr only has 2 (still above 100 pts) -- In terms of prime, Gretzky is taking over.

On top of that, Gretzky also has 5 all-time elite seasons of above 120 pts... while Orr is quickly faltering, with 10-60 pts seasons.

With Orr completely out of the game, Gretzky is still a top forward in the league for another 5 or so seasons.

So what it comes down to is Orr might have one or two seasons better than Gretzky's best. But Gretzky ultimately has 16 seasons where he was anywhere from amongst the best in the world to the best of all-time.

Orr might have a slightly higher peak, but I have yet to see a convincing argument showing that peak was enough to overcome Gretzky's inarguable large advantage in prime, career, playoffs and international play.

Ultimately, if Orr's peak was so vastly superior to Gretzky's, that it overcomes prime, career, playoffs and international play... why the heck was he not able to lead a great Bruins' team to a dynasty?

The fact that it is a virtual tie shows that Orr was better. Just the fact Orr played 7 of 8 seasons injury riddled, and not only is he in the running, he is right there at the top.

Why? Because he was first, So far above anyone in any of the 4 major sports athletically than anyone ever. All the great players who played against him said he was from another league. He was by far the best skater on all levels, from pure speed, moves, and especially from start to full speed, so any skills he had were performed by an athlete far superior to anyone then and now.

Also, how many athletes are rated # 1 or #2 alltime who was injured from season 2 on and only lasted 8 seasons?

It is a testament to him that he would even be considered with all the injuries, all very serious, and be the alltime greatest.

 

[quasi1981]

Then again Orr's NHL had only 12-14 teams with 6-8 being recent expansion franchises while Gretzky's had 21 or more. Gretzky's stanley cup wins were more unlikely.

Not true, first, in Orr's day, the 6 original teamsin one conference were all better than the expansion teams so getting to the finals was very difficult.

Also 21 teams means you have diluted talent all over the league. The original six teams when Orr came up were far superior in talent per team in G's day. Every team in Orr's conference were much more talented from top to bottom.

This is the problem with sports today with all the expansion. There is a huge lack of talent from top to bottom, meaning having a team with depth is rare.

 

[BraveCanadian]

This is the problem with sports today with all the expansion. There is a huge lack of talent from top to bottom, meaning having a team with depth is rare.

And in the NHL it was especially bad after 67 and until the top european and american and russian talent was able to get into the league.

ie. It was better in the 80s than it was in the 70s. The disparity in the 70s is bordering on laughable.

By the 90s there was plenty of talent available again with the iron curtain falling etc.

 

[quasi1981]

When judging who is the greatest ever it has always been a combination of peak/career. I don't agree that Orr even had the better peak, but even if I did. Waynes accomplishments throughout his career far surpass any advantage Orr may have had during their peaks. Gretzky therefore is the greatest player of all time.

Why is it when the Orr/Gretzky debate comes up their careers is casually tossed aside and only their peaks are considered? Is it because this is the only way Bobby stands a prayer?

Every other vs thread here everyone tries to balance them both, not with Bobby Orr we just look at 5 or 6 seasons and decide he's the best.

Waynes career far outweighs any advantage Orr might have had at their peaks and personally I don't think he has the edge there either.

That's not the point. The point was who was the best player. Playing a long csreer doesn't make a player great.

All who played with or against Orr said he was from league above all of them. No one knew how to deal with him. He was by far the best player on the ice whether he was blocking shots, digging in the corners, making great passes from behind the net which no one could ever do, because he was flying around the net, not standing behind and making passes. He was moving at full speed making pin point passes right on your stick with no chance to stay back there because of his position. It's like the NBA. The greatest scorers ever have always been the guys down low. When they brought in the 3 pointer, more little guys began to score more points.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Please move it to the new thread: Orr v. Gretzky (Part 2)