One top prospect to avoid

Fozz

Registered User
Aug 1, 2002
7,730
210
Ottawa
Visit site
insider said:
Not top 10 by any reach, but Mathieu Carle

I don't understand why since he won't be drafted until the 3rd round or beyond. In fact, I think he's very underrated... He has unbelievable vision and passing skill. He just needs to get in better shape and improve his skating and physical play. I think he could surprise some people in a few years.
 

Rabid Ranger

2 is better than one
Feb 27, 2002
31,104
11,116
Murica
MS said:
Sanguinetti gives me a very Chris O'Sullivan-type vibe. NHL puck skills don't mean much if you're soft as butter from the hash marks down.

Frolik's lack of production against men in the Czech league is a non-issue, but his failures to accomplish anything against his peers at the WJCs and U-18s are a huge red flag. He's set for a huge slide.

Patrik Berglund is what seems like the annual case of the tall, raw Euro center making a huge late run up the rankings despite not having accomplished much (see Hanzal, Holmqvist, Antropov, Novotny, Yakubov).


Interesting comparison between Sanguinetti and O'Sullivan. I would agree that he needs to get tougher and show at least some willingness to take the body, but his puck skills and speed are elite enough that a team in the top half of the first round will take a "gamble" on him.
 

Rabid Ranger

2 is better than one
Feb 27, 2002
31,104
11,116
Murica
MN_Gopher said:
I think Kessel is the guy to avoid. Both ways. You cannot really passs him up. And at the same time you cannot really take him with so many other good players out there. If you are picking 4-7 you just hope he his gone.

Like Randy Moss or Tim Couch. Sorry i know football much better than hockey. (Insert the pun now. I know you are thinking it.)


I'm not sure how to take your post, but I don't think Kessel has the character questions Moss did or the ability questions Couch had. I'm not going to sit here and say Kessel has no chance of being a bust or won't be a headcase, but he is (at least IMO) the most skilled offensive player in this draft, and it would be a shame if some teams shy away for less than valid reasons.
 

MN_Gopher

Registered User
May 2, 2002
3,628
21
Mpls
Visit site
Rabid Ranger said:
I'm not sure how to take your post, but I don't think Kessel has the character questions Moss did or the ability questions Couch had. I'm not going to sit here and say Kessel has no chance of being a bust or won't be a headcase, but he is (at least IMO) the most skilled offensive player in this draft, and it would be a shame if some teams shy away for less than valid reasons.


I do not think he is those things either to that extent. But i think scouts will be intriged but what someone else could eventually bring to the table. And after three years in the spot light all they can see is future flaws for Kessel. Thus going with another guy hoping he out shines Kessel in the long run. Just like Leinart this year. But i am sure it was hard for everyteam to pass him up too.
 

Corona-12

Registered User
May 17, 2006
188
0
BC, Canada
Have to disagree of the Frolik comment. I ask you if you have watched him play? Or just from what you have read on here and in magazines? Frolik has great skill. He played 4th line so what can you expect? If he were to go 45th(not a chance of that happening), after his first QMJHL season, almost 29 GMs would be shaking there head at their choices in the early 2nd/late first.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,595
84,101
Vancouver, BC
Corona-12 said:
Have to disagree of the Frolik comment. I ask you if you have watched him play? Or just from what you have read on here and in magazines? Frolik has great skill. He played 4th line so what can you expect? If he were to go 45th(not a chance of that happening), after his first QMJHL season, almost 29 GMs would be shaking there head at their choices in the early 2nd/late first.

The 4th line stuff is irrelevant. Guys like Michalek, Olesz, Havlat all played limited 4th line minutes in the Czech league in their draft years as well.

Difference is that those guys excelled against their peers. Frolik did not. 2 goals and 6 points in 13 games in major U-20 and U-18 competitions, and was pretty much invisible. That's why his stock has gone in the toilet, not his lack of production against men.

And no, he won't go 45th I don't think. But I wouldn't be surprised at all to see him fall to 20-25th overall.
 

insider

Registered User
Nov 14, 2003
2,345
0
Mathieu Carle has a decent shot and good vision, but does not have the heart and determination to make it, and isn't reliable defensively. I've seen him so many time this year on the power play trying to knock the puck down with his stick instead of gloving it, resulting in an opposing shorthanded breakaway. He has NO desire, and isn't the guy to rely on when things go wrong.

I've seen much better defenseman pass by here, and they actually had heart. They were late rounders. I see no reason why Carle should be higher.

Ex : http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid[]=62232
 

Pilot

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
920
0
MS said:
I wouldn't be surprised at all to see him fall to 20-25th overall.
I cannot see Frolik dropping out of the top 15.

He has too much potential, and has proven that he can already play against men. Not many teams on the bubble - 9th through 15th pick are going to let that potential go by.
 

Rabid Ranger

2 is better than one
Feb 27, 2002
31,104
11,116
Murica
Pilot said:
I cannot see Frolik dropping out of the top 15.

He has too much potential, and has proven that he can already play against men. Not many teams on the bubble - 9th through 15th pick are going to let that potential go by.

Frolik has NOT proven he can play against men.
 

joe_shannon_1983*

Guest
MN_Gopher said:
I think Kessel is the guy to avoid. Both ways. You cannot really passs him up. And at the same time you cannot really take him with so many other good players out there. If you are picking 4-7 you just hope he his gone.
I don't know about you, but if Kessel is still there at picks 4-7, then I am taking him and I am not looking back.
 

CH Wizard

Guest
Richard_Zednik said:

Why would you avoid drafting a skilled winger with a solid two way game and with good speed?

Frolik would be the way riskier pick here.
 

Senator Stanley

Registered User
Dec 11, 2003
7,596
1,718
Visit site
Frolik was screwed over by his coach at the WJC. He was completley misused with checkers. This came after having his confidence shaken while struggling in the Czech league. The fact that his confidence was such a problem may be a concern, but he has top 5 skill and upside. I'm hoping that the Sens find there annual dropping talent again this year at #28 in Frolik, but doubt he lasts that long.
 

Draftman

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
1,111
34
Long Island, NY
Visit site
Not a top prospect but I'm not that high on Brady Calla. I don't think he deserves his #33 ranking at THN or even at #43 from the ISS, due to his serious lack of scoring ability.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,595
84,101
Vancouver, BC
Draftman said:
Not a top prospect but I'm not that high on Brady Calla. I don't think he deserves his #33 ranking at THN or even at #43 from the ISS, due to his serious lack of scoring ability.

Agreed.

He's an excellent bet to be a 20-30 point 3rd/4th line guy, but has very limited upside. Good skater, hustles in all three zones, but no finish. Upside would be to develop into a guy very similar to Chris Kelly of Ottawa. Useful player, but pretty easy to find this sort of guy on the UFA market without needing to invest a high #2 pick. Past pick #50, sure ... nice guy to have in your system as long as you don't take him too high.
 

deandebean

Registered User
Jan 14, 2003
15,486
2
Gatineau
Visit site
insider said:
Mathieu Carle has a decent shot and good vision, but does not have the heart and determination to make it, and isn't reliable defensively. I've seen him so many time this year on the power play trying to knock the puck down with his stick instead of gloving it, resulting in an opposing shorthanded breakaway. He has NO desire, and isn't the guy to rely on when things go wrong.

I've seen much better defenseman pass by here, and they actually had heart. They were late rounders. I see no reason why Carle should be higher.

Ex : http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid[]=62232


Knowing the family a bit here, I tend to agree on one point you make: the kid will have to work freaking hard in order to get his game in gear. Because he's got the size and the offensive talents, but lacks commitment.
 

Dr.Sens(e)

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
7,014
1
Ottawa
Visit site
MS said:
Agreed.

He's an excellent bet to be a 20-30 point 3rd/4th line guy, but has very limited upside. Good skater, hustles in all three zones, but no finish. Upside would be to develop into a guy very similar to Chris Kelly of Ottawa. Useful player, but pretty easy to find this sort of guy on the UFA market without needing to invest a high #2 pick. Past pick #50, sure ... nice guy to have in your system as long as you don't take him too high.

I wouldn't even go that far. If a player is a role player at the junior level, it is a pretty rare occasion they ever make the NHL and become a significant role player at that level. Comparing Kelly and Calla is a good way to differentiate between prospects.

Kelly in his draft year scored 36 goals and 77 points. He was regarded as a scorer as a prospect, and only in the last few years has he re-invented himself into a two-way guy. But he definitely has some skill. Not enough to center a scoring line, but certainly enough to compliment some skill players and put up some points in his own right. 10 goals and 30 points as a rookie on the 4th line is pretty darn good no matter how you cut it.

Same with the likes of Peca, Fisher, Madden and McCauley. All of these guys were elite scorers in juniors or college, and to a certain extent, re-invented themselves along the way to become elite checking forwards.

And I think that's where people miss out on prospect at times. A 3rd or 4th liner checking forward is much more likely to have been a prolific scorer in junior with a great attitude, who at some point realized they weren't going to be an elite scorer in the NHL, so they went through a transition. Kelly was a smallish scorer who slipped to the third line because teams weren't quite sure he had the skills to be a scorer, but he certainly was never 'projected' to be a checking forward. But he realized that and in Bingo, became a great two-way guy, team captain, all the while still scoring at a decent pace (60 points in the AHL).

Heck, guys like Bonk and Hossa were regarded as one-dimensional offensive players and ended up being a couple of the Sens best defensive forwards by the time they were 25. In Bonk's case, he is another example of a guy who re-invented himself to a degree (he was regarded as a pure 'goal scoring dynamo' in his draft year')

So IMO, if a guy has good intangibles and was a decent two-way forward at the junior level in his draft year, but nothing more, he really isn't worth much more than a late round flyer. I know there are exceptions to this (great wheels and skills, but stuck in a role on a team so the production was limited), but I'd much rather focus on drafting skilled forwards with good character and focus on turning them into two-way players.

Even the likes of Moreau (44 goals in the OHL), Wiemer (45 goals in the WHL) and Pandolfo (ppg at Michigan) were elite scorers when drafted, and now are no more than very good checkers because of their skill level (decent, but clearly not elite). More recently, a player like Garth Murray (28 goals in his draft year) really doesn't have the skill to play a significant role in the NHL, but given he was a goal scorer in juniors, has enough talent to at least be a decent 4th liner in the NHL for a long time and perhaps get 10 goals a season a long the way.

Calla doesn't seem to fit the profile.
 

MadDagoBU

Registered User
Mar 7, 2006
224
0
Small thing with the previous post, Jay Pandolfo did his scoring at Boston University.

Actually, that probably plays a significant factor in his defensive ability. BU has produced a lot of forwards who are responsible in the defensive zones, so they make it even if the scoring skills they showed in college don't translate as well in the NHL.

Drury (although he's no scrub, he was the best player in College Hockey...he doesn't score quite that well in the NHL) and Mike Grier are two more examples of BU guys with the skills defensively to become valuable pros.
 

timlap

Registered User
Jun 19, 2002
9,218
41
Dr.Sens(e) said:
I wouldn't even go that far. If a player is a role player at the junior level, it is a pretty rare occasion they ever make the NHL and become a significant role player at that level. Comparing Kelly and Calla is a good way to differentiate between prospects.
. . .
Calla doesn't seem to fit the profile.
I'm not a Calla fan, either. But I wonder if there are some players who have had a draft year similar to his, and gone on to good NHL careers. I think there must be some.

One example that comes to mind is Ben Ondrus, who has not entirely established himself yet, but showed that he could be a regular as long as he can continue to do what he did at the end of last season (which didn't involve scoring at all).

His draft year (he was not drafted) was similar to that of Calla's, statistically.

I wonder if anyone else can think of other, perhaps better, examples.

But also, I think Calla fans believe he has some offence (maybe like Ryan White) and that his low numbers this year were a bit of a fluke.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad