Confirmed with Link: Oleksiak to PIT for conditional 2019 4th

M88K

irreverent
May 24, 2014
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You guys talking about elite defensive d-men like Kris Russell and Alec Martinez (also Pietrangelo, Morrissey, Provorov, Weber, Spurgeon, Ellis, Edler, McDonagh), players actually focusing on playing defense. ;-)

Um What???????????????????????????????
That is the first time anyone has ever, in the history of anything, referred to Kris Russell as elite anything... And most certainly does not belong with the group of players named immediately after.
He sucks
 

21

Peter The Great
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The two the best shot blockers leaguewide over the last few seasons, Kris Russell and Alec Martinez are actually pretty good puck movers. Martinez in particular is a very skilled defender who's also a PP specialist. Looking at this season, other top shotblockers include guys like Pietrangelo, Morrissey, Provorov, Weber, Spurgeon, Ellis, Edler or McDonagh. To say that those aren't good players would be crazy. Shot blocking is a skill. You gotta learn it. Not everybody can do it effectively and without getting hurt.

Um What???????????????????????????????
That is the first time anyone has ever, in the history of anything, referred to Kris Russell as elite anything... And most certainly does not belong with the group of players named immediately after.
He sucks

Well, I answered @Hinterland's post where we talked about the guys leading NHL stats in blocked shots. I guess a player blocking lots of shots isn't automatically a very good defensive "stay at home" type of defenseman but he could be (and I think Nemeth is good in both). ;-)

I don't want to get into the discussion right now if blocking shots is a good or bad thing though because we all know that this depends and also having lots to do with PK time.

If Kris Russell being awful like you are writing then his current 4 year / $16,000,000 contract with the Oilers is terrible, or at least him being overpaid. ;-)

I believe this mostly have to do with you unable to appreciate or judge defensive stay at home type of d-men?
 
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FirstRowUpperDeck

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Well, I kind of agree on the Russell being over paid. While he has led the league (or nearly so) in shot blocks and can skate, I think how he has bounced around is indicative that despite those strengths, his game is lacking somewhat. I doubt many GM's make that deal, but EDM was in need of any D men, even if just filling some space.

Hitch challenged all his players, including forwards to ramp up the shot blocking, so yes, I think that is a skill that is required to play at least old time hockey! Maybe with Ruff's system, not so much, but with most coaches, they like it.
 

Hinterland

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Well, I kind of agree on the Russell being over paid. While he has led the league (or nearly so) in shot blocks and can skate, I think how he has bounced around is indicative that despite those strengths, his game is lacking somewhat. I doubt many GM's make that deal, but EDM was in need of any D men, even if just filling some space.

Hitch challenged all his players, including forwards to ramp up the shot blocking, so yes, I think that is a skill that is required to play at least old time hockey! Maybe with Ruff's system, not so much, but with most coaches, they like it.

Didn't he sign as an FA? You usually don't get a top4 defender FA without overpaying. Russell may be slightly overpaid but he's hardly the problem in Edmonton. They have a few really bad contracts there...
 

FirstRowUpperDeck

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Let's take this a different direction.....with our top 6 settled for now, where do our D corps rank within the league? Our GAA is 11th, improved to 2.71, tied with Calgary, who has a pretty stout D themselves. Both our goalies are about 2.53 GAA, with Bishop ranked 11th in the league, about on par with our D.

FYI, our GF is 2.96, not the high point of 3.25 under Ruff, but pretty good.

So, which of our six D men is a weak link to be removed, replaced and upgraded, now that we no longer have Jamie and Patrick to blame?
 

FirstRowUpperDeck

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Yes, I think it does. It's not like PIT and COL didn't have a bevy of prospects and/or UFA to choose from. Coaches aren't idiots and play who they think will help them win. Nemeth is what, plus 11 on a below average D?

Granted, Oleksiak was seen by PIT as a project, but seems to be playing fine (from what I have seen) under a new system.

If you or anyone wants to say JO or PN doesn't have a complete NHL skill set, with some facets below average, others above average, but none at superstar level, I would surely agree, because that is what the situation is. It's not that they bring "nothing to the table" just because they won't be the next Zubov, or maybe even Darian Hatcher.

Actually, I think Nemeth probably skates and puck handles better than Hatcher, because its a requirement in today's game to have some of those skills. The way the game has changed, I wonder if Hatch, Luds, etc. would even make it in today's NHL?
 

Satan

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Yes, I think it does. It's not like PIT and COL didn't have a bevy of prospects and/or UFA to choose from. Coaches aren't idiots and play who they think will help them win. Nemeth is what, plus 11 on a below average D?

Granted, Oleksiak was seen by PIT as a project, but seems to be playing fine (from what I have seen) under a new system.

If you or anyone wants to say JO or PN doesn't have a complete NHL skill set, with some facets below average, others above average, but none at superstar level, I would surely agree, because that is what the situation is. It's not that they bring "nothing to the table" just because they won't be the next Zubov, or maybe even Darian Hatcher.

Actually, I think Nemeth probably skates and puck handles better than Hatcher, because its a requirement in today's game to have some of those skills. The way the game has changed, I wonder if Hatch, Luds, etc. would even make it in today's NHL?

I beg to differ with what I bolded. The NHL is a cesspool of nepotism.

Oleksiak has been nothing special since joining the Penguins. Nemeth is a +11 but his expected goal differential is negative... makes you think if he's due for a regression- I'll save you the trouble and inform you of his 104.91 PDO).
 

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Peter The Great
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Nemeth is what, plus 11 on a below average D?

Nemeth is +14, highest on Colorado Avalanche, Erik Johnson currently +5.
Colorado Avalanche 2018 Statistics - Team and Player Stats - ESPN

Colorado currently third in pk percentage
2017-18 NHL Hockey Stats and League Leaders - Special Teams - National Hockey League - ESPN

and regarding "below average D" you may be right but I believe the future is looking better when Makar and Timmins joining the team. Erik Johnson, Zadorov, Barrie, Girard (another young talent), Makar, Timmins, and I believe Nemeth will be good for balancing the defense as well. If things turn out well it could actually become a really good defense. It was a while since Colorado was a cup contender... we will see. ;-) Very difficult situation for both Colorado and Detroit Red Wings (thriving at the same era), the legacy of legendary teams/players and now having to find a new generation, tough because it will most probably never ever be the same (but hopefully good anyway). Not easy replacing players like Forsberg, Sakic, Roy, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Yzerman etc... I believe Sakic learned from his mistakes and now doing a good job as a GM, this will help.

Dallas Stars playing great right now after the latest loss vs Colorado, a wakeup call? ;-) I felt Colorado was lucky though, Dallas dominating them but Bernier simply outstanding and Bishop not good in the third.
 
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FirstRowUpperDeck

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21, Yeah, we can say the future is looking up, doesn't every team? For the Stars, its Honka and Miro coming down the pike vs, Markar, etc. Another question is whether Nemeth would get second pairing minutes on a better team? Obviously, for some teams, he would be third pair, but I don't think he deserved the press box in Dallas as much as he sat there.

Nemeth has been good. Plays second pair minutes, which is probably right for a team like COL right now. Would Markar and Timmins push him to the press box in the first year? That is the question. His stats are good, but a somewhat mixed bag, as would be the case of every non All Star in the NHL. He obviously brings something to the table and I am glad he finally got the chance outside the Stars organization.

Satan,

I would love to see a concrete example or three of the "cesspool of nepotism" you say exists in the NHL. Otherwise, your last post is as much an exaggeration as the first one I responded to.

I suppose you could point to Jordie Benn, but that didn't last forever, and he was never as bad as Stars fans (who compare him to his brother) thought. In fact, Ruff kept trying to put him in the press box, but he played his way back in. And, after leaving, his minutes go up (again, second pair) while his stats went down a smidge, but Montreal loves him. Until it doesn't.......their fans are probably more over the top in all or nothing analysis than we are. One bad game, and he will "have nothing to offer" I'm sure.
 

serp

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We saw enough of Nemeth and Oleksiak to be pretty sure it wasn't going to happen for either of them here. They just didn't fit. I mean you saw the dumpsterfire that Oleksiak this year before we traded him. Everytime he touched the puck i was afraid he'd turn it over for a scoring chance . It had become so bad i expected bad out of Jamie O.

Similarly was Nemther a dumpsterfire the last two years pretty much everytime he touched the ice. I dreaded the Nemeth-Benn Pairing we had going for a while. It pretty much bled goals against like crazy and Ruff just kept trotting it out.

For some reason Pateryn works out which just confuses the hell out of me. He's pretty much what Nemeth should've been like when he was here but for some reason wasn't
 

21

Peter The Great
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Also let's not forget that Nemeth was increadibly unlucky with his very serious freak injury vs the Flyers, I cannot help wondering how his career in Dallas would have been without it? If I remember correctly he was playing really good before the injury and he for sure lost tons of momentum there, really never found his stride for the Stars again.

Yes, if Nemeth wants second pair minutes in the future with promising talents joining the team he for sure need to keep up his stellar play and good stats. It also depends on how Colorado will value a big physical stay at home type of d-man and good PK killer. He may be good/useful for balancing the defense. Of course it helps a lot right now with him contributing offensively as well (this is also a big question mark, will he continue to contribute offensively?).

He for sure has a very powerful slapshot. :)

First goal of his NHL career


Second


Third
 
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FirstRowUpperDeck

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21,

Yes, it is a question of "what might have been?" given his good start to his career.

Of course, Grossman and Lindell had similarly good starts, and we might end up as disappointed in at least 2 out of 3. Maybe that is just the natural number of D men you have to go through. Obviously, I wanted both him and Jamie to make it. We needed D and it seemed the best way to acquire was through the draft, but not many worked out.

JO's start was bad, basically his long strides and stick made it easy for other teams to poach turnovers. I gave up on him pretty early, but probably hang on to Patrick a bit too long, given what all has happened.

Many years back, I recall them touting Dillon and Benn as their up and coming young D. I thought Dillon was a keeper and Benn not, but Nill thought the opposite. So, obviously those who know better sometimes see things we as fans don't, although Dillon is a top 4 D in SJ, too.

That said, our problem always was a lot of 3-4 level D men, but not true 1-2 types. Klingberg and maybe Lindell and Miro (who is injured again, BTW) answer those questions, and its not that unusual for teams to churn a lot of players looking for the best fit. Its not as simple as he bombed here, he will bomb there, as Benn and Nemeth seem to be showing. Jury still out on Jamie O.
 
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Satan

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Satan,

I would love to see a concrete example or three of the "cesspool of nepotism" you say exists in the NHL. Otherwise, your last post is as much an exaggeration as the first one I responded to.

I suppose you could point to Jordie Benn, but that didn't last forever, and he was never as bad as Stars fans (who compare him to his brother) thought. In fact, Ruff kept trying to put him in the press box, but he played his way back in. And, after leaving, his minutes go up (again, second pair) while his stats went down a smidge, but Montreal loves him. Until it doesn't.......their fans are probably more over the top in all or nothing analysis than we are. One bad game, and he will "have nothing to offer" I'm sure.

Do you not pay attention to the hockey world at all? There are countless examples of nepotism and cronyism.






Speaking of Lou, here's what his son does.
Chris Lamoriello - Wikipedia



Down Goes Brown Grab Bag: Hockey Nepotism, More Kings, and Concourse Passes

http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/nepotism-most-prevalent-in-nhl
 

FirstRowUpperDeck

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I don't think there is much correlation between hiring ex team stars in management and putting young relatives on the ice when they don't belong. Heck, even Steven Gainey didn't get more than a few games when his Dad was GM. They might get a bit longer look, not unlike first round picks like JC and JO, but they flush out about when they would otherwise.
 

Satan

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I don't think there is much correlation between hiring ex team stars in management and putting young relatives on the ice when they don't belong. Heck, even Steven Gainey didn't get more than a few games when his Dad was GM. They might get a bit longer look, not unlike first round picks like JC and JO, but they flush out about when they would otherwise.

You’re completely missing my point
 

FirstRowUpperDeck

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I really don't need to be enlightened about what the heck it could possibly be your point regarding the suitability of Nemeth and Oleksiak to play in the NHL. I think you are stretching a bit to keep an argument going, and there is little point of that.

Your initial point was that they had "nothing to offer" with which I disagreed, and believed was a gross over exaggeration. I believe they are mid level NHL defensemen with enough to offer to get some playing time. (Nemeth more than JO) Not all stars, but average players with a mix of skills that will keep at least Nemeth in the NHL for a fairly long time.

You responded, saying playing time is often dictated by a "cesspool of nepotism" but citing examples only of front office nepotism, which I don't believe apply at all. It's not like NHL coaches and GM's aren't constantly searching for better options (Nemeth and JO were the results of those type searches) and if they don't work out, they keep searching. They get fired for icing a bad team, and are highly motivated to put the best players they can find on the ice. IMHO, anyway, there are always exceptions, but not many.

You think Nemeth has been having some puck luck to make his numbers better, which may be possible, but a burst to prove to a new team you are worthy isn't unusual. I gandered at the Pens board, and agree the results from JO are just a bit better than when he was her.

Saw an article about Johns (who you lumped into the nothing to offer category)today, saying Hitch doesn't threaten to yank him out with every mistake, and by all accounts and the eye test, he is playing much better. Ruff nearly ruined him, too, but he is showing the potential.

And tonight will be exciting. Dillon H is playing. Another second round pick (a la Johns, Lindell, (and Duncan Keith, etc.) who also probably has some skills as a stay at home type. Sitting Honka and making Johns the puck mover on his natural side in that pairing. Johns can skate and hit......two pretty nice things to offer, while admitting he is best to limit himself to the easy, safe, first pass on O, for the most part. Let's hope the two of them, and Miro, makes us not miss JO and Nemeth at all. Seems to me its time to stop turning over the young D and teach the ones we have.....
 

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Peter The Great
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Also has to be said that Nemeth got 11 of his 85 blocks from a single game against Arizona. I think somebody must have been drunk there. I haven't watched the game but this cannot be true. Only Anaheim and Washington have fewer shots than Arizona and even as a fantasy player focussing on Blocks and Hits I've never seen a player get 11 shots.

About Nemeth's shot blocking stats ;-) he blocked 7 shots in latest win vs the Sharks given 8:22 minutes of PK time (most PK time on entire team). Less than 11 but still pretty impressive? Nemeth is for sure nr 1 right now in entire NHL looking at blocks/game in average (percentage). Not necessarily something good but fun and interesting stats.
San Jose Sharks - Colorado Avalanche - January 18th, 2018
 
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FirstRowUpperDeck

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I'm not sure why anyone would say that shot blocking is not good? Or, playing 8.22 minutes on the PK. Good for Patrick. Sad it didn't work out here, and maybe they had their eyes on the similar Heatherington for the role he might have played this year and/or next year when Haimuis is not likely to be back.
 
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Memyselfandi

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Nemeth stats after 50 games

GP G A TP +/-
50 3 11 14 +26 best in team in plus/minus
2,8 blocked shots /game for a total of 140 (best in the team)
0.28 points/game
TOI avg = 19:27 third highest def ice time in the team

I think he is slowly but surely coming to be a real stay-at-home def for long time.
 

Ragernschnapple

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Feb 24, 2017
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Nemeth stats after 50 games

GP G A TP +/-
50 3 11 14 +26 best in team in plus/minus
2,8 blocked shots /game for a total of 140 (best in the team)
0.28 points/game
TOI avg = 19:27 third highest def ice time in the team

I think he is slowly but surely coming to be a real stay-at-home def for long time.
Nemeth looked good for Dallas before his injury. He might have become a top 6 D-man for Dallas had he not been injured. Ruff and Patrick didn't do any favors towards the development, or for the confidence, of the young Dallas D-men over the past 4 years. If he had Hitch and Wilson while with Dallas, who knows. Nemeth had some ability though.

As for Oleksiak, he's a borderline NHL player. The Erskine comparison is spot on. Oleksiak just doesn't have it upstairs. He can fight, hit a little, and spin around or be completely out of position about 12 times a game. He just doesn't bring much to the table. He's very flawed. I really enjoyed playing Pittsburgh seeing Oleksiak on the ice. I bet his opponents think the same thing. I wouldn't trade the 4th rounder back to Pittsburgh for him if offered. Dallas has been much better without him. I imagine Pittsburgh would be as well.
 
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Benneguin

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Nemeth looked good for Dallas before his injury. He might have become a top 6 D-man for Dallas had he not been injured. Ruff and Patrick didn't do any favors towards the development, or for the confidence, of the young Dallas D-men over the past 4 years. If he had Hitch and Wilson while with Dallas, who knows. Nemeth had some ability though.

As for Oleksiak, he's a borderline NHL player. The Erskine comparison is spot on. Oleksiak just doesn't have it upstairs. He can fight, hit a little, and spin around or be completely out of position about 12 times a game. He just doesn't bring much to the table. He's very flawed. I really enjoyed playing Pittsburgh seeing Oleksiak on the ice. I bet his opponents think the same thing. I wouldn't trade the 4th rounder back to Pittsburgh for him if offered. Dallas has been much better without him. I imagine Pittsburgh would be as well.

I’d say trying to properly evaluate any D man durng the Ruff era is a lost cause. Ruff wasn’t good at handling any of them. He had the same problem in Buffalo, which is odd being how he was a defensemen in his playing days.
 
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jballa95

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Good for Nemeth and Oleksiak. Sometimes players need a change of scenery, Nemeth and Oleksiak's case is no different.
 

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