Older members of HF, what was it like when Gretzky started out?

[Passchendaele]

What were the expectations?
How did the media/everyone react when the skinny kid from Brantford started putting up absurd point totals?

It's pretty crazy to think a feeble 20-year old broke every offensive record in the book (goals, assists, points -- by 60!).

Click to read more...

 

[David Bruce Banner]

I don't recall him being thought of as particularly scrawny, although he was definitely considered to be a "kid". He was approximately the same size and weight as Guy Lafleur, for what it's worth.

I think most of the hockey establishment was willing to consider that he would probably be good... perhaps even a perennial all-star... while he was still in the WHA. But the numbers he was able to put up in the NHL, almost right away, did cause many to be taken aback. Could he keep it up? Nah, coaches and defencemen will figure him out. He'll get muscled off the puck... he won't get time to make those plays once the league is hip to him.

The thing was, the league didn't figure him out, he figured the league out. Most people recognized and accepted that they were witnessing something really special relatively quickly... probably by the end of his 2nd NHL season, or very early into his 3rd.

 

[Howie Hodge]

Okay, I knew who he was because I'd seen him play for Team Canada as a 16 year old. Most "experts" identified him as too small and too slow to play in The NHL. He would have been picked like the rest of the meat was, off the bones of The WHA Teams at the merger if NHL GM's strongly felt differently.

When Indianapolis Racers owner Nelson Skalbania, who had signed Gretzky as a 17 year old, wanted to dump his salary his rookie season, he had trouble unloading him. He offered Peter Driscoll and Eddie Mio to Winnipeg, along with Wayne Gretzky. Winnipeg wanted Driscoll and Mio, but not Gretzky, and balked at the deal. Edmonton was then approached, and initially balked for the same reason as had Winnipeg. Eventually Edmonton took Gretzky as part of the deal.

Imagine hockey history had Gretzky played for Winnipeg. Imagine NHL History if The NHL GM's had properly assessed Gretzky and not let him fall through the cracks, and placed him on an existing Franchise. Oh, I don't know, maybe Toronto?

 

[Howie Hodge]

I don't recall him being thought of as particularly scrawny, although he was definitely considered to be a "kid". He was approximately the same size and weight as Guy Lafleur, for what it's worth.

Oh yeah; he was very unathletic looking. LaFleur was bigger (not by a lot), but was a flyer, where Wayne was not. Wayne was an anomaly when it came to appearance, big time.

 

[Howie Hodge]

I actually really like this thread, being the same age as Gretzky and following him since 1977.

So I will risk boring you all with a little anecdote.

World Junior Tournament 1977. My first view of Gretzky. Impressed with his vision and passing acumen I called my father to watch the game. Now my father was an old English soccer player/coach who liked hockey as long as it didn't interfere with my soccer. Problematic as I played both sports. (I'm not saying well.)

My father asked me what I though to Wayne. I said brilliant at this level. Probably too slow and two small to be impact full at The NHL level My father said; "well you're wrong - that's your next Bobby Orr." I laughed at that. I told my friends how silly my father had been in assessing Wayne.

Needless to say, two years later Wayne is dominating at The NHL level. Now I have people coming up to me, a semi precocious hockey GM wanna be, and remarking how it was ironic that my father had been able to identify Wayne's abilities while so few others had.

I tried to minimize the situation, but they all considered my father pretty savvy for his original assessment of Wayne Gretzky.

A lesson in Humility 101 for me, to be certain.....

 

[The Panther]

 

[Howie Hodge]

Thank you for illustrating that Panther. Although LaFleur is older than Gretzky it still makes the point, because Gretzky never had any upper body muscle.

 

[IComeInPeace]

I was 10-11 at the time, and a Canucks fan. There was limited TV coverage st the time.

I had followed him in the WHA and was a huge fan just because it was so odd to see a young kid accomplish what he was doing.

Despite all of the early accolades and accomplishments, and despite his very impressive rookie WHA season, I remember many (if not most) experts thought he was too small/skinny and that he would be exposed at the NHL level as yet another guy who had a high degree of skill but because of the physical nature, his game wouldn’t translate.

I think there were a lot of surprised people in his NHL rookie season.

I thought that was common knowledge, but because of my young age at the time maybe I understood incorrectly, or because of current advanced age maybe I now remember incorrectly.

I’d be very interested to hear/read quotes from NHL experts who predicted his success before that NHL season vs those who questioned it.

 

[IComeInPeace]

For a guy who was a chain smoker, Guy is in great shape there. Hard to imagine his career fizzled relatively young when he looks like one of the few guys that was keeping himself in great shape.

...and then I realize, my initial sentence referenced his smoking.

 

[shazariahl]

I remember a lot of people being critics back then, but then again I grew up just outside of Edmonton, and lots of people were huge fans, which naturally means there were some very vocal detractors as well. I remember my one uncle, who was a huge Hull fan, constantly complaining about Gretzky being small, slow, weak, etc. He complained a lot about how Gretzky'd never won anything. That was obviously before their first cup. He and my other uncle (who was a Gretzky fan) would debate endlessly about the topic.

One has to remember that early on, Gretzky had won Bronze in the world Jrs, Edmonton had lost the last Avco cup to Winnipeg, Canada had lost 8-1 to the Soviets in the 81 CC, and then when Edmonton got swept by the Islanders, it really did look like he was a great offensive star who put up tons of regular season points, but couldn't get it done when it really mattered. Of course, from there he'd go on to win 4 cups in the next 5 years, take LA to a cup finals with them, win golds in the 84, 87, and 91 Canada Cups, leading every one of these playoff and tournament runs in points, and end up being probably the greatest playoff performer of all time. But prior to all the wins, there were plenty of critics. I'm sure there were still critics afterwards, but once he'd won 4 cups they were a lot more quiet. Or at least my one uncle was, and so were the kids I knew in school who didn't like him (though to be fair, they were pretty scarce to begin with).

 

[Killion]

A lesson in Humility 101 for me, to be certain.....

And thats what memories are made of. A lot of parallels, similarities between soccer & hockey as you well know having played both. And as usual, Father Knows Best huh?.... First time many of us heard anything about Gretzky was from long-time CBC host & interviewer/author Peter Gzowski who did a feature on Wayne (during his short-lived late night CBC TV Show early 70's) when he was very young, living in Brantford, putting up astronomical, mind-numbing numbers in minor hockey. I remember watching it & sort of thinking "wow.... but he's young, a kid, lots of high flyers & phenoms in amateur who never go on to Jr much less pro".

I remember too, sadly, reading about all of the animosity that was showered on him & his family by the parents of his teammates, throughout the league in which he was then playing and as a result hoped he did go on to Junior & Pro, blew everyones doors off & silenced the beyond mean spirited critics..... which of course he did.... and writ large. Heres an interesting clip from 1977, his final year of Junior I believe with the Soo Greyhounds... of note Walter Gretzky's comments about how Wayne despite his size (or lack of proto-typical hockey physique) was able to survive, that he "rolled off checks, like he had eyes in the back of his head". You cant hit smoke, a Ghost.

Peter Gzowski again interviewing..... www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-kBon2bUbo

 

[Jumptheshark]

First game I saw live I said how will such a small guy survive?

 

[VanIslander]

I remember Gretzky in 1981 being compared to Diego Maradona, who was the same age (20 at the time) and was already the highest paid soccer player ever (as of then), but had yet to reach the international legendary heights he reached in the 1986 World Cup. Both of them were described as masters of ball/puck control who made the opposing defense look silly. I don't recall the size comparisons (Maradona was 5'5), in fact, I don't recall thinking of Gretzky as small, just as a non-physical player.

I believe it was the same year that Joe Montana won his first of three Super Bowl MVPs and young Gretzky was compared to him in terms of ability to make the right decision at the right time. I remember their intelligence being compared.

So, a couple of years before Gretz won his first Stanley Cup, his greatness - and WHY he was so great - was already a well-covered topic of discussion. As a viewer you knew you - like the opposing players - could not predict what he would do. THAT was why he was so entertaining right from day one! Go right, go left, pull up short, go along the boards, pass quickly, release a slapper, pull back ("like a Russian" he was, seeming to mimic the Soviet strategy of maintaining puck control even if that meant leaving the offensive zone).

I don't recall any comparisons to Howe or Orr or projections of him as the best ever. That kind of thing seems more endemic of the Internet Age.

 

[Killion]

...

...I don't recall thinking of Gretzky as small, just as a non-physical player.

I don't recall any comparisons to Howe or Orr or projections of him as the best ever. That kind of thing seems more endemic of the Internet Age.

Yeah pretty much this. He was only compared to Orr & Howe in terms of potential impact, genius if you will, but beyond that no, entirely different type of player and a complete outlier. Anathema, the opposite to what were then considered prerequisites in terms of general physicality. The knock being that he was too soft. That he wouldnt be able to pull off what he'd pulled in minor, Jr & the WHA at the NHL level. Be nothing left of him but red, brown, yellow & green stains on the ice, boards. Thing with hockey & hockey players is they do in fact come in all shapes & sizes, styles, temperaments. Maurice Richard was rather "weird". Skating style beyond odd. Sort of ran on his skates. Gump Worsley about the farthest thing from looking like an "athlete". Guy's like Bruce Boudreau & Kyle Wellwood looking like beer kegs, and if you didnt know any better figured "maybe 12yrs old"?... on & on. Its what you do with what you got that counts & some pretty creative, surprisingly talented players over the years who were told that for whatever reason "never gunna cut it, make it kid". Too small, too lithe, not enough grit, too slow or whatever.

 

[The Macho King]

Kind of related, but at what point in his career were people starting to say "Holy shit, this guy may be the best to ever play?"

 

[ICM1970]

I recall reading in Red Storey's book his remembering about how the late Clarence Campbell watched Gretzky during his first NHL season in 1979-80. Campbell apparently was not overwhelmed by what he saw but Storey figures that Campbell may have expected a player like Bobby Hull or Gordie Howe in terms of physical presence and skill or even a Bobby Orr in that respect but Gretzky was really that markedly different concerning those things. Campbell likely might not have understood things in that regard concerning Gretzky when making that sort of assessment of him. BTW, 1979-80 was at about the time I began seriously paying attention to the NHL.

 

[VanIslander]

Campbell apparently was not overwhelmed by what he saw...

Well, Joe Montana was a star in college but when he did the NFL combine, he failed to impress on almost every measure, and his arm strength was well below average. "Yeah, but have you seen him PLAY!"

Oh, and the Sedins! Brian Burke saw them play in the world juniors and was not impressed by how they played physically against Canada and USA even though they dominated against other opponents. Burke had decided to trade the early 1st round pick away to avoid them altogether when a team scout, the 1980's number 1 pivot for the Canucks Thomas Gradin convinced him to look again, and to see how much they control the play when they have the puck. Burke credits Gradin for helping him see past the one dimension of their game that they clearly don't have and to see the utter genius of their puck control.

 

[Terry Yake]

someone a few years ago posted some links to old usenet threads from the 1980s when gretzky was in his prime and it was very interesting to see how people were talking about him. with gretzky still just a handful of years into his career, people no doubt recognized his greatness but howe was seen by the overwhelming majority as the GOAT

if someone could go back and find those links and repost them it would be awesome

 

[Howie Hodge]

I remember Gretzky in 1981 being compared to Diego Maradona, who was the same age (20 at the time) and was already the highest paid soccer player ever (as of then), but had yet to reach the international legendary heights he reached in the 1986 World Cup. Both of them were described as masters of ball/puck control who made the opposing defense look silly. I don't recall the size comparisons (Maradona was 5'5), in fact, I don't recall thinking of Gretzky as small, just as a non-physical player.

I believe it was the same year that Joe Montana won his first of three Super Bowl MVPs and young Gretzky was compared to him in terms of ability to make the right decision at the right time. I remember their intelligence being compared.

Love this thread.

Along these lines of "rolling off hits/tackles", none ever better than former Irish/Manchester United Superstar George Best. Google video of him for proof. If he got pushed he just changed his direction instantly. Brilliant!

"I spent most of my money on women, booze, and cars. The rest I just squandered."
-George Best

 

[Mr. Fancy Pants]

Gretzky was passed on by the first two teams in the OMJHL Midget draft - http://www.hockeydb.com/articles/wayne_gretzky_never_drafted.php

In 1978, it was becoming evident that Wayne Gretzky was going to be a superstar. Even though he was not selected by the first two teams in the 1977 Ontario Major Junior Hockey League Midget draft (in lieu of Tom McCarthy and Steve Peters), he was a highly regarded youth player, having scored 72 points with the Junior B Toronto Nationals at the age of 15 - in just 28 games!
Luckily, the Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds selected him with their third pick, and Gretzky went on to score 182 points for them in the 1977-78 season as a 16/17 year old, though he lost the scoring crown to 19/20-year old Bobby Smith who finished with 192 points.​

 

[Ralph Malfredsson]

My Gretzky history:

1979 -- Dad says he is something special
1982 -- buy all the Gretzky stuff (I had sweater, curtains, bedspread, poster, lunchbox, books, Oiler hockey socks, you name it).
1984 -- wow the kid really won. First time I rooted for someone and they won.
1986 -- stupid Steve Smith
1988 -- saddest day in the lives of most Canadian kids my age
1993 -- I think he may be the best player ever

 

[The Panther]

When Gretzky started out is a bit before my time, but thanks to the wonders of the Internet, I can show you what it was like:

 

[LemmyUlanov55]

I like this thread. Reading some stories about how Gretzky was perceived at the beginning of his career is quite interesting.

 

[Voight]

The first game I saw him play live, i knew right then and there he was going to be the GOAT. It was like seeing Orr, Hull and Esposito all rolled into one machine.

 

[Killion]

The first game I saw him play live, i knew right then and there he was going to be the GOAT. It was like seeing Orr, Hull and Esposito all rolled into one machine.

Orr-Hull-Espo?... I was thinkin more a cross between Centers Howie Morenz & Guyle Fielder, however, like Defenceman who I always considered more Rovers than proto-typical "Defencemen" in Harvey & Orr - Gretzky could take total control of a game, speed it up or slow it down. Not only did he create his own space & time, that space & time transcendent of the era in which he played with elements of the early game pre WW2, the Golden Era of the 50's through 67, his own age of the late 70's through 90's, and hopefully to the future era's provided the powers that be start letting kids have fun again, let players play, be creative & not afraid to make mistakes, stop micro-managing every aspect of their development & play. Then maybe, just maybe we'll see another Gretzky.