GDT: OKC Barons @ Houston Aeros, Sunday 12/16 4:05PM MDT

[OiledUp]

There's some serious underrating of the Aeros/Wild prospects in here. Granlund, Philips, Coyle, Zucker and Larsson is a really solid group of prospects, well-rounded as well, Wild has a bright bright future, maybe not the crazy fire power of the future Oilers but a more balanced group that will give us fits for years to come.

 

[State of Hockey]

Granlund easily deserves to be mentioned with Hall and Schultz.

He's mentionable, but he's clearly not on their level. Sorry.

We're dressing an AHL allstar team and this is what we're getting? A team thats .500 in the AHL approaching Xmas.

It's an All-Star team if you stop at the top-6 forwards and top pairing. After that it's not an AHL All-Star team. In the end, it's still a team game, and Houston is beating the Barons with their very good AHL regulars, not their prospects.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Thats the hall-mark of a team unable to control the flow of the game. For all the talk we have about guys like Schultz/Hall being able to "control" the pace of the game our team gets dominated by teams led by 3rd/4th-line like players.

As good as our kids are, they aren't tenacious enough without the puck. With the puck they're amazing, but they don't want the puck enough when it's gone to make plays necessary to control the game.

Players like Datsyuk/Richards/Kesler, or even Peverley/Hansen, when their team doesn't have the puck, they are working 120% to make sure they get it back and prevent any high-percentage opportunities for the opposition. That's why teams like Detroit/Boston/Vancouver frequently out-shoot their opponents and control pace of play.

Some of that comes from the defense, as having Dmen who know what to do with the puck when they retrieve it is key to starting a breakout and consolidating possession (J.Schultz/Whitney/Petry). Additionally, having defenseman that can effectively separate their man from the puck is key (Smid, N.Schultz). I think we're okay in that facet.

The problem for me is at forward, we don't have forwards that WANT the puck enough. The only ones off the top of my head are Belanger/Horcoff/Paajarvi (slightly above average) and Smyth/Jones/Petrell (average). Our top-6 features no one that will work hard to retrieve the puck, and it's why once we lose possession, that puck is prone to turn into an opposition shot.

RNH sure as hell does. Of our forwards he is the guy hat fits your description if what we are missing the best.

Yeah I saw it, excellent post. Just wondering if you did the splits manually or if you got it from somewhere. I'd like to run some stats on how the club has done against teams ahead of them in the standings. My suspicion is not too well just going off memory.

As far as Houston they had to play the checkers the last couple nights which are much more of a test than the futile rampage. So if any team had a right to be tired its the Aeros.

I did them manually by looking at the box scores that I have in my original post. And yes the Checkers are a far superior team to the Rampage, the Rampage have better goaltending and are tougher, that's about it.

The D has looked bad this year, no question, but some of these guys looked OK last year didn't they?

I see a lot of problems with odd man situations, being outnumbered in areas, and lack of puck support. Precisely the kind of things you spot when a team not playing a system is up against a club playing its game all over the ice. You can have all the talent in the world (as we're seeing) and still find ways to lose against a better team game. Lets be clear here the Aeros tilted the ice at some point in this game and we didn't have an answer. I'm amazed it went to shootout.

Thing is this team isn't playing any kind of a game that would actually help out the D. When you have normal D you run a Mactavish like break out. Simple, easy, set routine stuff that any normal guy can execute. Jason Smith and Steve Staios had their best ever years by a country mile playing under Mactavish. They never looked anything like it anywhere else.

Is this D really this bad or is it that theres just no focus with this club on D?

I know what my answer is.

Teubert really struggles with the puck IMO, I love his tenacity in the corners but he still has a a ways to go when it comes to moving the puck to even be a decent #6 NHL d-man. Plante is beyond brutal and with all of his HS's lately the coaching staff obviously agrees. Marincin for all of his talent makes a lot of boneheaded plays, but to be fair he is a rookie. Fedun really isn't anything special right now likely at least in part due to his injury/missed developmental time. Deck hasn't looked too bad actually and Henry has had his ups and downs even as a vet. IMO we're not working with a whole lot, but I am also sick and tired of seeing 2 RHD together. Fedun and Teubert aren't a good pairing either IMO, Teubert needs a guy that can move the puck, a guy who he can make a quick chip or pass to to start the breakout after he wins a puck battle. Marincin IMO would be the natural partner for him at this level.

Yeah, sing it, we're seeing the same things. I didn't get to watch the Eberle 5pt game but it reminds me that Omark had 5pts in an AHL game last year so not sure how much to read into it. The Rampage as mentioned are a **** opponent. Just on hilites:
First goal Eberle scores high, wouldn't beat many NHL goalies from that range. Second goal a complete joke as Eberle skates right by his check, who gives him a slight tap, before potting the cross ice feed(beauty pass by Arcobello) Then the tip in is nice, and thats a goal that could be scored at NHL level. Then theres the empty net.

What I haven't liked in Eberles game particularly is in close checking games he spends an awful lot of the time without the puck and without being able to get the puck. As much as we all love RNH and Eberle in the real tight checking affairs playing good teams they do a lot of chasing after the puck. Its consistently Hall in my mind that rises to that next level in the tough games we need him to. Of any of out players he's consistently ready for the next challenge. Eberle is much more meteoric. Just brilliant on some nights and where is he on others. There was a couple games last week where you could barely tell Eberle was out on the ice. You NEVER get that with Hall.

Hall's elite speed makes him noticeable every time that he touches the ice, I'm not knocking him, but Eberle and RNH play different kinds of games and have different kinds of tools. Personally I think that we have a good mix of skills and abilities up front with the big 4. When Hall continues to play more of a power forward game in terms of hitting guys more it will add another dynamic to our top forwards abilities.

There's a reason you hear coaches and GMs often name-dropping two-way forwards as underrated--They aren't as explosive and dynamic as offensive forwards but they can be just as valuable if not moreso over the course of a season. Both the Barons and the Aeros lack anything resembling proper defense so it falls on the forwards to do a lot of that work and the Oilers' picks aren't as suited for that. I don't know how you keep a hold of all these guys while you wait for defensive help, though, so the team(s) either have to play a different system or shuffle the deck a little and get a Johan Larsson or two. Barons and Oilers are frightening on the rush but away from the puck there just isn't a whole lot to fear. And you saw the Aeros' flaw last night too...That many shots on goal and look at the score. That was as much a demonstration of lack of snipers as it was solid goaltending.
At any rate, Oilers/Wild games should be interesting in the future--I think though that re-alignment is going to follow the CBA fairly quickly and just as things are starting to look fun we'll end up in different divisions.

IMO both RNH and Granlund show a lot of defensive ability, guys like Hall and Eberle have a lot of work to do in that area and I'm sure that they will, it's just part of their maturation as hockey players. Like the old saying goes, you can teach defense, but you can't teach offense.

The sentiment that the "Oilers' kids" are somehow the problem causing the Barons to lose is absurd bordering on delusional. However you view their "two way play" I am reasonably sure that if you could magically give all six players unlimited amounts of stamina a line of Hall-RNH-Eberle would outscore a line of Zucker-Granlund-Coyle 9 times out of ten, even with the Barons gaffe prone defense. The Barons' problems start every time one of the kids steps off the ice.

Eberle and Schultz are +13 (RNH and Hall would likely be around that number if they played as many games). According to Staples compiling of scoring chances they are creating a lot more offense than they give up.

The Barons have the same problem that the Oilers do: the supporting cast can't score and the defensemen are prone to gaffes.

That's not the point that he is getting at, the bottom line is that our players will have to be committed to defense as well if we are to take that next step. Had we not left Granlund alone in the slot yesterday we probably win the game 3-1 or 3-2. He is also acknowledging that his team has the same issues so you shouldn't be so defensive about his post IMO.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

There's some serious underrating of the Aeros/Wild prospects in here. Granlund, Philips, Coyle, Zucker and Larsson is a really solid group of prospects, well-rounded as well, Wild has a bright bright future, maybe not the crazy fire power of the future Oilers but a more balanced group that will give us fits for years to come.

They have a very good group of prospects, there's no doubt about it. If they continue to draft like they have they will be a very good team for a long, long time.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

He's mentionable, but he's clearly not on their level. Sorry.

Granlund's puck skills are very good, his shot is very good, he's a very good passer and he sees the ice very well. I'm looking forward to seeing how his game translates to the next level.

It's an All-Star team if you stop at the top-6 forwards and top pairing. After that it's not an AHL All-Star team. In the end, it's still a team game, and Houston is beating the Barons with their very good AHL regulars, not their prospects.

Agreed with everything but the bolded, yesterday the Granlund, Coyle, and Zucker line were driving the bus and Hackett has had our number as well. IMO The Aeros have a better overall defense and better vets, their forwards (especially Zucker) have good enough wheels on them to embarrass most of our slower defensemen.

 

[Replacement*]

Once again you appear after a loss. Where were you when they were winning?

Like most people here I was unable to watch the two games we won as they either weren't being streamed or streamed very poorly. Harder to comment on games you don't see. Although I did to a degree. I stated that beating up on the Rampage, the worst team in the whole AHL, doesn't account for much.

 

[CupofOil]

There's some serious underrating of the Aeros/Wild prospects in here. Granlund, Philips, Coyle, Zucker and Larsson is a really solid group of prospects, well-rounded as well, Wild has a bright bright future, maybe not the crazy fire power of the future Oilers but a more balanced group that will give us fits for years to come.

I sure as heck am not underrating them. I think that they have a better, deeper, more balanced prospect pool than the Oilers with a team that has a much higher likelihood to achieve greatness.

 

[Worraps]

That's not the point that he is getting at, the bottom line is that our players will have to be committed to defense as well if we are to take that next step. Had we not left Granlund alone in the slot yesterday we probably win the game 3-1 or 3-2. He is also acknowledging that his team has the same issues so you shouldn't be so defensive about his post IMO.

No. The point is that your expectations are ridiculous if you expect elite scorers to also be next to perfect in their own zone. It absolutely isn't a necessary condition of winning.

In order for a team to win it must have the players who aren't capable of elite scoring play next to perfect in their own zone. They also need to score from time to time. If Paajarvi, Lander, Green, Pitlick, et al were able to find their way onto the score sheet, the Barons would have won 4-3 or 4-2, irrespective of leaving Granlund alone in the slot.

 

[Replacement*]

No. The point is that your expectations are ridiculous if you expect elite scorers to also be next to perfect in their own zone. It absolutely isn't a necessary condition of winning.

In order for a team to win it must have the players who aren't capable of elite scoring play next to perfect in their own zone. They also need to score from time to time. If Paajarvi, Lander, Green, Pitlick, et al were able to find their way onto the score sheet, the Barons would have won 4-3 or 4-2, irrespective of leaving Granlund alone in the slot.

You never watched Jari Kurri play did you? A guy like that was infinitely more useful on the club because he could score 60-70 goals AND tilt the ice with brilliant backchecking.

If there was a TKA stat back then Kurri and Gretz would've busted it up for all eternity.

Yes, valuable players backcheck and create offence through playing in all zones.

"Next to perfect in own zone" Eberle typically has GA/60mins so high that everybody would see it as a concern were it not for his scoring prowess. The definition of high event player either way. His value of course to the org increases when he starts to focus all over the ice.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

HFBoards has the Wild at number 1 for prospects and The Panthers at number 2 and The Oilers at number 3. That is the Aeros,Rampage and Barons

 

[Worraps]

You never watched Jari Kurri play did you? A guy like that was infinitely more useful on the club because he could score 60-70 goals AND tilt the ice with brilliant backchecking.

If there was a TKA stat back then Kurri and Gretz would've busted it up for all eternity.

Yes, valuable players backcheck and create offence through playing in all zones.

"Next to perfect in own zone" Eberle typically has GA/60mins so high that everybody would see it as a concern were it not for his scoring prowess. The definition of high event player either way. His value of course to the org increases when he starts to focus all over the ice.

How many two-way players like Jari Kurri have there ever been?

I would love it if RNH turned into Wayne Gretzky and Schultz turned into Bobby Orr but that's not going to happen either.

If Eberle's ability to score falls off the face of the earth we can start wringing our hands about his defensive play.

 

[OilFury]

the barons in the next 2 years is going to be a really good team, we have solid dmen coming up and some talented/depth forwards coming in too. and will be a much bigger tougher team than currently

 

[joestevens29]

Like most people here I was unable to watch the two games we won as they either weren't being streamed or streamed very poorly. Harder to comment on games you don't see. Although I did to a degree. I stated that beating up on the Rampage, the worst team in the whole AHL, doesn't account for much.

Well they aren't the worse team in the AHL, just one of them.

But you don't think playing 3 games in 3 nights against a desperate team that just loss two in a row has anything to do with it? I mean for **** sakes it was OTL, you are making it sound like they got spanked.

 

[Replacement*]

Well they aren't the worse team in the AHL, just one of them.

But you don't think playing 3 games in 3 nights against a desperate team that just loss two in a row has anything to do with it? I mean for **** sakes it was OTL, you are making it sound like they got spanked.

Wanna talk hockey? Fine. But knock of the bs.

I'm allowed to express a different opinion of the team, can substantiate that opinion, and don't appreciate you labeling it. Neither would you.

They got outshot 46-20. What do you call that? The score was deceptive and pretty much due to us having better finish around the net. We were outplayed badly.

I would say playing two tough games against the Charlotte Checkers takes way more of a toll than two cakewalks against the worst club in the league. Thats a reasonable opinion. Deal with it.

 

[State of Hockey]

Granlund's puck skills are very good, his shot is very good, he's a very good passer and he sees the ice very well. I'm looking forward to seeing how his game translates to the next level.

He's great in those areas, no doubt. But he doesn't have the skating speed nor the competitiveness in tight quarters. Hall, Eberle, and Schultz are dangerous just by themselves (their linemates are pretty bad to be honest). Granlund needed his linemates, and they needed Granlund too. That's the difference between good and great.

Agreed with everything but the bolded, yesterday the Granlund, Coyle, and Zucker line were driving the bus and Hackett has had our number as well. IMO The Aeros have a better overall defense and better vets, their forwards (especially Zucker) have good enough wheels on them to embarrass most of our slower defensemen.

The Barons top guys scored three, and the Aeros top guys scored two. However past the top guys the Barons squad isn't very good, and that's where the Aeros made it up.

Speed-wise though I thought the Barons had an edge for the first half of the game. The Aeros didn't have a whole lot of speed outside of Zucker.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

He's great in those areas, no doubt. But he doesn't have the skating speed nor the competitiveness in tight quarters. Hall, Eberle, and Schultz are dangerous just by themselves (their linemates are pretty bad to be honest). Granlund needed his linemates, and they needed Granlund too. That's the difference between good and great.

Fair enough, that said the Wild should be happy with him relative to where they got him in the draft.

The Barons top guys scored three, and the Aeros top guys scored two. However past the top guys the Barons squad isn't very good, and that's where the Aeros made it up.

Speed-wise though I thought the Barons had an edge for the first half of the game. The Aeros didn't have a whole lot of speed outside of Zucker.

Zucker is a speedy guy, I never got to see Jason Blake early in his career, but I'd imagine that he would've been pretty similar to Zucker. Our defense is extremely porous, I'd love to see what our top guys could do against our D not named Schultz!

 

[Mr Forever]

HFBoards has the Wild at number 1 for prospects and The Panthers at number 2 and The Oilers at number 3. That is the Aeros,Rampage and Barons

Two of the Oilers top prospects also aren't on the Barons. Yak and Klefa.