Post-Game Talk: Oilers 6 Sens 2 - 4 McPoints

[mouz135]

It's just interesting to me that McLellan is suddenly playing Nuge on wing after we heard about playing a hurt Klefbom for a trade with Ottawa. If that Karlsson & Hoffman for RNH and Klefbom rumor has any possible merit, then they are showcasing Nuge.

I guess another interpretation is that McLellan now realizes he can use Strome as 3C and he's a better fit there than 2C or top 6 wing, which means he has flexibility with Drai and Nuge.

I just don't recall the last time a player was drafted as a center, played center their entire professional career (5-6 years), and then switched to a winger for the long term. Has that ever happened? Normally after that amount of time at one position, said player stays there for the duration of their career. Because of this sudden switch, I just don't see RNH being an Oiler past this Summer.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

Ok, the Oilers are not in a position to be choosers right now. We will take anything we can get in terms of offense. After trading away most of our goal scoring ability, we need goals from somewhere (which is a big reason by we are eliminated from playoffs end of march while McDavid has a 100 point season). Hoffman scores 25 goals with routine, you take that guy on your team any day. You just hope Sens are as dumb as Chiarelli and would give up a 25 goal scorer for a scrub, like say Ryan Strome

Completely disagree with this post.

 

[BudBundy]

I'll never understand this pov. I was literally ill when the Oilers traded Hall and knew it was occurring. He is an offensive DRIVER. An elite player, a franchise and marquee player. He was that here, he was that now.

But we trade that guy and theres nonstop messages ever since to get over it, not such a big deal, etc.

Nuge is nothing close to the player and yet the strongest reaction is reserved for Nuge. A guy that had .496ppg as recently as last season and was absent in the playoffs.

I think fans are so defensive about trading Nuge, not because they feel he is more valuable or better than Hall, but more because trading Nuge would be “thats the last bloody straw”. If we hadnt seen so many asinine trades done around here, the reaction to the concept of trading Nuge wouldnt be as strong. Hall was my favourite Oiler and that trade still angers me. I am past it, but I will never “just get over it.”

 

[SourOil]

I'll never understand this pov. I was literally ill when the Oilers traded Hall and knew it was occurring. He is an offensive DRIVER. An elite player, a franchise and marquee player. He was that here, he was that now.

But we trade that guy and theres nonstop messages ever since to get over it, not such a big deal, etc.

Nuge is nothing close to the player and yet the strongest reaction is reserved for Nuge. A guy that had .496ppg as recently as last season and was absent in the playoffs.

Sure - Taylor Hall is a superstar, I agree. But we weren't winning with him and I think the majority opinion at the time was that we needed to make a change. Unfortunately our GM got hosed on the return. Eberle ran out his time here and again, we decided to move on and got hosed on the return (albeit not as badly as with the Hall/Reinhart deals). My point being that I was inherently OK with the logic behind the trades - I did not say that I was happy with the outcome.

We have learned that the grass is not always greener. I don't think you need a team of superstar players to win in this league. We have the best player in the world and I'd like to see the franchise give Nuge the opportunity to play with him before looking elsewhere.

 

[BudBundy]

I just don't recall the last time a player was drafted as a center, played center their entire professional career (5-6 years), and then switched to a winger for the long term. Has that ever happened? Normally after that amount of time at one position, said player stays there for the duration of their career. Because of this sudden switch, I just don't see RNH being an Oiler past this Summer.

Narrow thinking. Lots of centers have been drafted and developed as centers but have then spent significant time at wing. Look at Marleau and Pavelski for recent examples. Dont forget that if we trade Nuge, we are one hit away from Strome being our second line center. Remember the days of desperation trying Ryan Smyth and Mark Arcobello at C? I sure do.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I just don't recall the last time a player was drafted as a center, played center their entire professional career (5-6 years), and then switched to a winger for the long term. Has that ever happened? Normally after that amount of time at one position, said player stays there for the duration of their career. Because of this sudden switch, I just don't see RNH being an Oiler past this Summer.

Heres the thing. Everybody knows Connor lights it up in his last dozen games of a year and especially this was to be expected in a year where he's fighting for the scoring race. It was gravy for almost ANYBODY to be put into the first line slot in this segment. People are waxing on about Nuge's 3 pt night when it was Connor that drove 3/4 of his pts last night. I mean Ty Rattie had a 3 pt night last night people and identical boxcars to Nuge. If players are reversed Hoffman probably finishes two of the 6 feeds that Nuge got last night. just saying.

That said I like what I'm seeing in Nuge's game right now but seriously, we all know THIS Nuge doesn't last. Don't we? If the season was even 10 games longer you would see an inevitable sag. We might anyway.

Plus the Sens are pathetic. Lets put the pts in some perspective. We were playing the Sens without Karlsson. That's a worst team in league scenario.

 

[SourOil]

I just don't recall the last time a player was drafted as a center, played center their entire professional career (5-6 years), and then switched to a winger for the long term. Has that ever happened? Normally after that amount of time at one position, said player stays there for the duration of their career. Because of this sudden switch, I just don't see RNH being an Oiler past this Summer.

Not a great example, but Burns and Big Buff have spent time playing fwd/def. I was listening to Team 1260 and Strudwick was talking about how Fedorov would play games on defence and make it look easy. I don't know many centre to wing examples, but I would guess that many guys have successfully performed in both roles. The benefit for Nuge is that he is playing wing on a line with the best centre (and player) in the league, so it should be a lot easier.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Narrow thinking. Lots of centers have been drafted and developed as centers but have then spent significant time at wing. Look at Marleau and Pavelski for recent examples. Dont forget that if we trade Nuge, we are one hit away from Strome being our second line center. Remember the days of desperation trying Ryan Smyth and Mark Arcobello at C? I sure do.

If either of McD or Drai get hurt for an extended period, any season, this is a bad club with or without Nuge. Nuge on his own nets 40something point seasons. Not that much from what Strome does really. Certainly far less difference than there is in Lucic "replacing the Hall offense".

Now maybe out of some strange happening Nuge just now happens to be better than he ever has been. Maybe he gets better still. I guess that's possible, but its not likely. Its sure not likely that Nuge ever gets to the point where he drives offense independently. He never has.

 

[SourOil]

If either of McD or Drai get hurt for an extended period, any season, this is a bad club with or without Nuge. Nuge on his own nets 40something point seasons. Not that much from what Strome does really. Certainly far less difference than there is in Lucic "replacing the Hall offense".

Now maybe out of some strange happening Nuge just now happens to be better than he ever has been. Maybe he gets better still. I guess that's possible, but its not likely. Its sure not likely that Nuge ever gets to the point where he drives offense independently. He never has.

He doesn't need to anymore - I think that is the point. If he can compliment the superstars on the team, at $6 mil per year, we should be happy.

 

[BudBundy]

If either of McD or Drai get hurt for an extended period, any season, this is a bad club with or without Nuge. Nuge on his own nets 40something point seasons. Not that much from what Strome does really. Certainly far less difference than there is in Lucic "replacing the Hall offense".

Now maybe out of some strange happening Nuge just now happens to be better than he ever has been. Maybe he gets better still. I guess that's possible, but its not likely. Its sure not likely that Nuge ever gets to the point where he drives offense independently. He never has.

At one point in time your argument was right, but this season Nuge has been producing more offense. At the ripe old age of 24 that isn’t unusual. Remember at around game 50 when he broke those ribs, he was on pace for 30 goals without a shred of McDavid time. As such, I think you are selling him vastly short if you think he is just another Strome.

 

[Drivesaitl]

He doesn't need to anymore - I think that is the point. If he can compliment the superstars on the team, at $6 mil per year, we should be happy.

Sure, but these are extremely short term results. The difficulty being, as I see it, is Nuge doesn't play this well, or at this level for extended stretches. Also of course that topline players absorb MUCH more punishment. I would want to see a 25game segment to see what the pairing looks like longitudinally. I think McD, too, absorbs a whole lot more punishment playing with say Nuge and Rattie than he would playing with any of Maroon, Draisaitl, Lucic. Really I even want to see Slepy get more looks. Had the Oilers wanted to pump Slepy he would be putting up pts on topline as well right now. He's a lot more talented than given credit for. The bonus with Slepy is he is big and strong and very adept at playing in traffic and gets BETTER when he's playing big minutes with Drai or McD.

I do agree with your statement. Just don't agree that Nuge with McD is a long term solution.

 

[Soundwave]

Sure, but these are extremely short term results. The difficulty being, as I see it, is Nuge doesn't play this well, or at this level for extended stretches. Also of course that topline players absorb MUCH more punishment. I would want to see a 25game segment to see what the pairing looks like longitudinally. I think McD, too, absorbs a whole lot more punishment playing with say Nuge and Rattie than he would playing with any of Maroon, Draisaitl, Lucic. Really I even want to see Slepy get more looks. Had the Oilers wanted to pump Slepy he would be putting up pts on topline as well right now. He's a lot more talented than given credit for. The bonus with Slepy is he is big and strong and very adept at playing in traffic and gets BETTER when he's playing big minutes with Drai or McD.

I do agree with your statement. Just don't agree that Nuge with McD is a long term solution.

The Oilers have to develop Puljujarvi and Yamamoto to be in those roles like how *every other team* does it.

 

[Drivesaitl]

At one point in time your argument was right, but this season Nuge has been producing more offense. At the ripe old age of 24 that isn’t unusual. Remember at around game 50 when he broke those ribs, he was on pace for 30 goals without a shred of McDavid time. As such, I think you are selling him vastly short if you think he is just another Strome.

I'm certainly not saying he's Strome. But we're one year removed from where I won a 100 buck bet, and other bets, that Gagner would put up more pts in Columbus than Nuge would here. Just saying. A view on a player is not just what he's doing now, in the moment, and I don't tend to go "pace" with Nuge either as when he is playing a topline role he's eating more punishment and the likelihood of injury or getting banged up increases.

Maroon put up 52 goals with McD in two seasons of play, punched cows, was a board demon winning pucks, and matches the big heavy aspect that McD can play. McD is actually more consistently dominant when with people that can play a heavy game. Last night on the same shift as the 2nd McD goal even the diminutive Hoffman belted Nuge putting him right on his ass. Against WC clubs that happens much more regularly. It will on Saturday.

Finally, this seasons goal total with Nuge is a little outlier. 3 of the goals are empty net goals and two others are own goals scored by opponents when Nuge attempted to center a puck. Nuge is typically anywhere from 15-24 goals. A McD season those numbers increase, but without the big linemate intangibles.

 

[SourOil]

Sure, but these are extremely short term results. The difficulty being, as I see it, is Nuge doesn't play this well, or at this level for extended stretches. Also of course that topline players absorb MUCH more punishment. I would want to see a 25game segment to see what the pairing looks like longitudinally. I think McD, too, absorbs a whole lot more punishment playing with say Nuge and Rattie than he would playing with any of Maroon, Draisaitl, Lucic. Really I even want to see Slepy get more looks. Had the Oilers wanted to pump Slepy he would be putting up pts on topline as well right now. He's a lot more talented than given credit for. The bonus with Slepy is he is big and strong and very adept at playing in traffic and gets BETTER when he's playing big minutes with Drai or McD.

I do agree with your statement. Just don't agree that Nuge with McD is a long term solution.

Hey man, completely reasonable argument. Very short term sample size which needs to be factored in for sure. I would just like to see how this goes before moving him out in place of another unknown.

I definitely agree with the size argument - would be taxing to have Nuge-McD-Rattie line playing 60-80 gms/year together. The end of the season is always difficult, you go from playing teams fighting for playoff positions to playing bottom feeders. Hard to gauge the output of a line with so many variables at play.

 

[CycloneSweep]

How do you make that cap work though? That pick is actually quite a bit for a scoring winger like Hoffman. Maybe you could get retention out of the deal.

I donno. I think if the oilers were adding Hoffman they are giving up a guy like nuge or klefbom for him.

You can always move out cap in other deals.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Hey man, completely reasonable argument. Very short term sample size which needs to be factored in for sure. I would just like to see how this goes before moving him out in place of another unknown.

I definitely agree with the size argument - would be taxing to have Nuge-McD-Rattie line playing 60-80 gms/year together. The end of the season is always difficult, you go from playing teams fighting for playoff positions to playing bottom feeders. Hard to gauge the output of a line with so many variables at play.

Simply excellent post, nothing to add. You've captured it, thanks for the discussion.

 

[mouz135]

Narrow thinking. Lots of centers have been drafted and developed as centers but have then spent significant time at wing. Look at Marleau and Pavelski for recent examples. Dont forget that if we trade Nuge, we are one hit away from Strome being our second line center. Remember the days of desperation trying Ryan Smyth and Mark Arcobello at C? I sure do.

It's not narrorw thinking, I honestly had no idea if it was a thing. I hadn't heard of a player switching positions 6 years into their professional career.

 

[fuswald]

We have no idea how good Nugent Hopkins can be at wing. Much less to worry about he might become great at it. Maybe one of the best in the league who knows. Give it time.

Hall couldn't handle centre.

 

[duul]

Sure would be nice for the NHL and NHLPA to agree on a compliance buyout or something. Lucic contract is so brutal.

 

[SourOil]

Sure would be nice for the NHL and NHLPA to agree on a compliance buyout or something. Lucic contract is so brutal.

His term is going to hurt.

However, I will give him the benefit of the doubt this year. We were out early and his style of play is taxing on the body - so when you aren't winning, it is tough to sacrifice health for meaningless wins. Albeit, it's kind of a shitty attitude when you're making $6 mil/year. If we are competing for a playoff spot next year and he is still ineffective, then I think we start to panic.

 

[McCombo]

I just don't recall the last time a player was drafted as a center, played center their entire professional career (5-6 years), and then switched to a winger for the long term. Has that ever happened? Normally after that amount of time at one position, said player stays there for the duration of their career. Because of this sudden switch, I just don't see RNH being an Oiler past this Summer.

[X] Drafted 7-8 years ago in top 10
[X] Highly touted in Juniors
[X] Played and developed most of his career as a center
[X] High hockey-IQ, creative and very skillful, but smallish stature
[X] ~40-50 center in NHL, but expectations were always higher

Sounds like RNH? He checks every box too, but I am talking about Mikael Granlund. 2016-2017 season he played in wing and destroyed his earlier point totals and is doing pretty good again this year.

Hockey is a freeflowing game and even more so with McDavid. Positions don't matter that much. Center isn't always the first man back, closest forward to own net plays centers role if the play turns to own end. I would rather have RNH being that guy compared to lets say Patrick Maroon...

 

[sportsdynasty]

Too bad it wasn't possible to try Nuge with McDavid sooner.

Coach took 3 seasons to try Nuge with McDavid. Wow too late!!

 

[Drivesaitl]

Not in RNH's rookie season. I also think that at that point it could've been argued that RNH may have had more potential. What we have seen since has been Hall being by far the better offensive player, however it wouldn't surprise me to see Nuge close that gap as he gets older as he was always a guy that most expected to be at his best in his mid-late 20's.

This is curious to me as I would reserve that kind of thought to players that are either late bloomers, that are large and gangly and haven't found their legs, or guys that show a particular acuity for passionately learning every facet of the NHL game and improving in main aspects of play.

Nuge is not this. Nuge is a guy that 7 years into his NHL career still NEVER had a season where he was even 50% on the dot. Its elemental things like that that cause question regarding his overall focus or strive to get better at every aspect.

The reality is Nuge is, and always has been in the NHL, a player that is content to look as good as his linemates at any given time. As SK13 perfectly put it, he doesn't move the river, he's rafting along for the ride.

 

[Took a pill in Sbisa]

I just don't recall the last time a player was drafted as a center, played center their entire professional career (5-6 years), and then switched to a winger for the long term. Has that ever happened? Normally after that amount of time at one position, said player stays there for the duration of their career. Because of this sudden switch, I just don't see RNH being an Oiler past this Summer.

Giroux is having a career year playing on Couturiers wing this year

Tyler Johnson is playing on Point's wing in Tampa


Zetterberg started out as a centre, then moved to LW, and I think started playing centre again if I recall correctly

 

[Dazed and Confused]

I just don't recall the last time a player was drafted as a center, played center their entire professional career (5-6 years), and then switched to a winger for the long term. Has that ever happened? Normally after that amount of time at one position, said player stays there for the duration of their career. Because of this sudden switch, I just don't see RNH being an Oiler past this Summer.

Marleau after SJ got a ton of centres (Pavelski too)
Couturier swapped to wing this season
Cogliano in Anaheim.

If Nuge fits with McDavid, why move him?

Hall was traded because the rest of the assets here were low in value and the team needed a defenceman that could survive top matchups.

Ebs was dealt because his value was approaching zero, and he was already strapped to the rail car by the end of the playoffs.

The agurment to trade Nuge is... because a centre can't play wing, or Chai's got to Chai? I'm not buying it.