Ogopogo's "Greatest NHL Careers" update

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Ogopogo*, Jun 16, 2007.

  1. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    As many of you are aware, I have a system that I devised to evaluate the greatest careers in NHL history. I thought some of you may have some interest in the update to include the 2006-07 season.


    Some interesting observations: The biggest movers and shakers on my non-goaltender list were Nicklas Lidstrom, Joe Thornton, Sidney Crosby and Vincent Lecavalier.

    Lidstrom has rocketed up to #27 on my all-time list. He also becomes the 9th greatest defenseman of all time on my list. Lidstrom is rapidly overtaking some of the legends of the sport.

    Joe Thornton has had back to back strong seasons to move all the way up to #66.

    Sidney Crosby and Vincent Lecavalier are making their debuts on my top 200 careers list. After only two seasons, Sid is sitting at #139. Vinny's great season has moved him into 184th slot.


    In goaltending, Martin Brodeur moved up to #7. One more season like this year and Brodeur will own spot #4 on the list.

    Roberto Luongo made a huge jump, now occupying 33rd position on the all-time goaltending list.


    ***Remember, I am still refining things. This list is not perfection but, I think it is a very good evaluation of NHL playing careers. Right now I am working on adjustments for both goaltending and non-goaltending so both lists may see slight adjustments when I have added the additional data.


    Greatest NHL Careers

    1 Wayne Gretzky
    2 Gordie Howe
    3 Bobby Orr
    4 Mario Lemieux
    5 Jean Beliveau
    6 Eddie Shore
    7 Bobby Hull
    8 Ray Bourque
    9 Maurice "Rocket" Richard
    10 Phil Esposito
    11 Jaromir Jagr
    12 Stan Mikita
    13 Guy Lafleur
    14 Doug Harvey
    15 Howie Morenz
    16 Leonard "Red" Kelly
    17 Francis "King" Clancy
    18 Bill Cowley
    19 Paul Coffey
    20 Ted Kennedy
    21 Bryan Trottier
    22 Earl Seibert
    23 Andy Bathgate
    24 Syl Apps, Sr.
    25 Cecil " Babe" Dye
    26 Bobby Clarke
    27 Nicklas Lidstrom
    28 Elmer Lach
    29 Cy Denneny
    30 Marcel Dionne
    31 Milt Schmidt
    32 Mike Bossy
    33 Nels Stewart
    34 Denis Potvin
    35 Mark Messier
    36 Larry Robinson
    37 Joe Sakic
    38 Lionel Conacher
    39 Pierre Pilote
    40 Frank Boucher
    41 Charlie Conacher
    42 Max Bentley
    43 Steve Yzerman
    44 Brad Park
    45 Harry Cameron
    46 Bernie Geoffrion
    47 Doug Bentley
    48 Al MacInnis
    49 Ted Lindsay
    50 Brett Hull
    51 Aurel Joliat
    52 Bill Cook
    53 Rod Langway
    54 Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde
    55 Aubrey "Dit" Clapper
    56 Scott Stevens
    57 Chris Chelios
    58 Sprague Cleghorn
    59 Teemu Selanne
    60 Ebbie Goodfellow
    61 Sid Abel
    62 Jack Stewart
    63 Bill Gadsby
    64 Hector "Toe" Blake
    65 Brian Leetch
    66 Joe Thornton
    67 Frank Nighbor
    68 Chris Pronger
    69 Borje Salming
    70 Marty Barry
    71 Gord Drillon
    72 Adam Oates
    73 Harry "Punch" Broadbent
    74 Scott Niedermayer
    75 Frank Mahovlich
    76 Henri Richard
    77 Mark Howe
    78 Peter Forsberg
    79 Norm Ullman
    80 Doug Gilmour
    81 Markus Naslund
    82 Tim Horton
    83 Serge Savard
    84 David "Sweeney" Schriner
    85 Joe Malone
    86 Jarome Iginla
    87 Dale Hawerchuk
    88 Syd Howe
    89 Eric Lindros
    90 Roy Conacher
    91 Jack Darragh
    92 Reg Noble
    93 Peter Stastny
    94 Dickie Moore
    95 Denis Savard
    96 Reg "Hooley" Smith
    97 Ivan "Ching" Johnson
    98 Jacques Laperriere
    99 Pavel Bure
    100 George Boucher
    101 Sylvio Mantha
    102 Bill Quackenbush
    103 Guy Lapointe
    104 Art Coulter
    105 Ken Reardon
    106 Cecil Dillon
    107 Jean Ratelle
    108 Sergei Fedorov
    109 Clarence "Hap" Day
    110 Bryan Hextall, Sr.
    111 Emile "Butch" Bouchard
    112 Ace Bailey
    113 Bert Olmstead
    114 Phil Watson
    115 Walter "Babe" Pratt
    116 Dave Keon
    117 Marcel Pronovost
    118 Buddy O'Connor
    119 Yvan Cournoyer
    120 Martin St. Louis
    121 JC Tremblay
    122 Rob Blake
    123 Paul Thompson
    124 Gaye Stewart
    125 Pat Lafontaine
    126 Paul Kariya
    127 Tom Anderson
    128 Larry Murphy
    129 Odie Cleghorn
    130 Ron Francis
    131 Alex Delvecchio
    132 Ralph "Cooney" Weiland
    133 Doug Wilson
    134 Fern Flaman
    135 Ken Randall
    136 Harvey "Busher" Jackson
    137 Billy Burch
    138 Lynn Patrick
    139 Sidney Crosby
    140 Gilbert Perreault
    141 Jari Kurri
    142 Albert "Babe" Seibert
    143 Eddie Gerard
    144 Lawrence "Baldy" Northcott
    145 William "Flash" Hollett
    146 Joe Nieuwendyk
    147 Red Berenson
    148 Tod Sloan
    149 Reggie Leach
    150 Brad Richards
    151 Tom Johnson
    152 Paul Ronty
    153 Bob Gainey
    154 Johnny Gagnon
    155 Joe Primeau
    156 Carl Brewer
    157 Billy Boucher
    159 Marcel Bonin
    160 Butch Goring
    161 Claude Lemieux
    162 Bob Pulford
    163 Neil Colville
    164 John LeClair
    165 Theoren Fleury
    166 Alf Skinner
    167 Ed Litzenberger
    168 Bill Thoms
    169 Darryl Sittler
    170 Corb Denneny
    171 Frank Frederickson
    172 Harry Howell
    173 Bert Corbeau
    174 Clint Smith
    175 Alexei Yashin
    176 Lorne Carr
    176 Lionel Hitchman
    177 Dick Irvin
    178 Peter Bondra
    179 Earl Robinson
    180 Mark Recchi
    181 Bill White
    182 Ken Hodge
    183 Pat Stapleton
    184 Vincent Lecavalier
    185 Phil Housley
    186 George "Goldie" Prodgers
    187 Ed Sandford
    188 Sergei Gonchar
    190 George Hay
    191 Allan Stanley
    192 Herb Cain
    193 Jack Crawford
    195 Bobby Rousseau
    196 Michel Goulet
    197 Bert McCaffrey
    198 Art Chapman
    199 Jim Thomson
    200 Billy Taylor


    Greatest Goaltenders

    1 Glenn Hall
    2 Patrick Roy
    3 Terry Sawchuk
    4 Ken Dryden
    5 Dominik Hasek
    6 Jacques Plante
    7 Martin Brodeur
    8 Frank Brimsek
    9 Clint Benedict
    10 Bill Durnan
    11 Cecil " Tiny" Thompson
    12 Tony Esposito
    13 Bernie Parent
    14 Walter " Turk" Broda
    15 Roy Worters
    16 Chuck Rayner
    17 Ed Giacomin
    18 Georges Vezina
    19 George Hainsworth
    20 Johnny Bower
    21 Grant Fuhr
    22 Harry Lumley
    23 Alex Connell
    24 Mike Liut
    25 Lorne "Gump" Worsley
    26 Ed Belfour
    27 Charlie Gardiner
    28 Rogatien Vachon
    29 Billy Smith
    30 Tom Barrasso
    31 Miikka Kiprusoff
    32 John Vanbiesbrouck
    33 Roberto Luongo
    34 Roger Crozier
    35 Charlie Hodge
    36 Mike Vernon
    37 Normie Smith
    38 Lorne Chabot
    39 Al Rollins
    40 Don Edwards
    41 Ron Hextall
    42 Dave Kerr
    43 Jose Theodore
    44 Pete Peeters
    45 Pelle Lindbergh
    46 Jim Henry
    47 Cam Ward
    48 Bill Ranford
    49 JS Giguere
    50 Olaf Kolzig
     
  2. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    If his career ended today (due to, say, injury) then SC's career would be greater than Kurri's?

    No.

    In terms of arc, and looking to future performance, one can predict it easily. But in terms of career to date? No way.

    Too much focus on regular season hardware in your rating system perhaps.
     
  3. Ol' Jase

    Ol' Jase No mas, Adam. No mas Sponsor

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    How is it possilble the Cam Ward has had a better career than Bill Ranford, regardless of any rating system.
     
  4. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    How did Norm Ullman (#79) end up so incredibly far ahead of guys like Perreault, Sittler, Kurri, and Francis?

    He doesn't strike me as a guy who was particularly dominant in his prime...(I could be wrong on that)


    Obviously no list is going to be perfect...and I'm sure you're expecting a lot of controversy here. But still, if Markus Naslund has had the 80th greatest career in NHL history, does that mean you would induct him into the Ogopogo Hall of Fame if he retired today? He had 3 excellent regular seasons...and that's it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2007
  5. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    Did Alfredsson rise on your list or drop or stay the same?
     
  6. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    Yeah...that's a head scratcher in my books too. The Conn Smyth is Ward's only notable achievement so far, and Ranford has one to match, on top of a pretty solid career. Ward wasn't even the starter that year...and this past season he was among the league worst in both GAA and SV%, and middle of the pack in terms of wins.

    Heck, how is he ahead of Giguere too?
     
  7. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    Alfie's sitting tight at #247
     
  8. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    What, on an individual basis, would you say Kurri has to put him ahead of Crosby?
     
  9. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    The question I ask is: How many NHLer have ever had 3 excellent regular seasons?

    The answer is, not too many. In fact, the number would be 79 or less, based on where Naslund sits.
     
  10. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    Due to a lack of available data on goaltenders and difficulty in dealing with the NHL head office in NY to obtain the additional data I need, my goaltending ratings can only go so far. Both Ward and Ranford's only great seasons were winning the Conn Smythe on a cup run.

    If the NHL provides me with the additional data I require, perhaps Ranford would end up ahead of Ward but, until then, they are tied.
     
  11. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    So Alfredsson leads the playoffs in goals and ties for the lead in points and Captains a team to the finals and he stays put?

    That points out a huge weakness in your system.

    Alexei Yashin at 175 and Alfredsson at 247 is a freaking joke. There isn't a hockey person alive that watched the NHL for the last 12-15 years that would have Yashin above Alfredsson for his career. Talk about overweighting one or 2 good seasons.

    You call your list "greatest NHL careers" - what it is is "highest NHL peaks - even as few as 2 or 3 seasons".

    Your list has merit but not accounting for playoffs at all except the Smythe greatly limits its merits.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2007
  12. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    Kurri played at an elite level for 11 or 12 seasons. Crosby has done it for 2 - at a higher level but still.....
     
  13. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    Because GAA, SV% and Wins are all largely team stats, they do not enter in to my ratings.

    See the above post but, once I obtain the additional data I need perhaps Giguere will end up ahead of Ward.

    Winning the Conn Smythe is a significant thing in my book.
     
  14. Stephen

    Stephen Registered User

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    It seems truly baffling that a multiple cup winner like Recchi can be behind a guy like Yashin, or that Joe Thornton had a better career than Scott Niedermayer, or Eric Lindros is behind Markus Naslund, or that Sidney Crosby's 2 years is better than Jari Kurri. How is Steve Yzerman behind Joe Sakic, and how is Ron Francis behind Martin St. Louis?

    And how did Sergei Gonchar and Alexei Yashin beat out Mats Sundin?

    Who is Billy Taylor? This guy? The guy didn't even play enough games to qualify for an NHL pension. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid[]=10070&pid[]=13297

    How do you know anything about "Art Coulter" "Buddy O'Connor" "George Hay"? How can you even put them in relation to contemporary players if you've never seen them play?

    How can you possibly put a guy like Sylvio Mantha ahead of a Alex Delvecchio, Jari Kurri and Doug Gilmour?

    The lists are completely random and padded with obscure historical names. A lot of obviously great players are rated way too low in relation to these ho hum 1930s ghosts nobody knows about or can really remember. I think there's a lot of random filler in here which basically discredits the other work you're doing.
     
  15. Stonefly

    Stonefly Registered User

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    Bourque at 8 and Harvey at 14?????
    Al MacInnis at 48????? What the hell is MacInnis doing in the top 100 players of all time? :huh:
     
  16. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    So, yes, you'll go on record as saying that Markus Naslund is a legit HOFer (assuming your personal hall-of-fame would have 80 players in it)?

    Since it seems Naslund's days as an elite player are over, I think too much emphasis is being put on regular season scoring when guaging a career here. A handfull of seasons does not a career make.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2007
  17. barfy2000

    barfy2000 Registered User

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    How about 1000 games and about 1200 points?

    Not to mention about 5 Stanley Cups, a HHOF enshrinement and an Olympic Bronze?
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2007
  18. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    But that's the point. Ranford and Giguere (even prior to these playoffs) have both won the Smyth as well. This should make it a moot point, no? Ignoring the Smyths, Ward has one season as a backup, and one mediocre regular season. Ranford was at least a solid starter for a number of years. Giguere has 4 years as a very good NHL starter.

    Apart from the one major accomplishment which they all share, Ward has done absolutely nothing in the NHL.

    Which part of your goaltending formula put him ahead of those two?
     
  19. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    The playoffs are a delicate issue. To give huge weighting to things like Alfredsson's 2007 playoff performance is completely unfair to all of the great players who are stuck on crappy teams. Is it Marcel Dionne's fault his GM was an idiot? Is it Crosby's fault his Penguins weren't good enough to beat the Senators?

    If I was to weight playoff performance significantly higher then players like Henri Richard would be ahead of Phil Esposito. Claude Lemieux would be ahead of Mario Lemieux.

    The regular season gives each player an even playing field and is a better measure than playoff numbers, IMO. I do account for playoffs with Smythe trophies and cup wins but, they must be put in proper perspective to accomplish the correct results, IMO.
     
  20. Stephen

    Stephen Registered User

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    The criteria in which you judge players is also wholey inconsistent. Are you ranking guys on statistical production, length of career, championships, individual awards, peak seasons? Are you rating them on a combination of these things? What makes an above average player from the 1940s better than some of the elite talent of other eras? And how is Naslund better than Lindros? Lindros' peak was longer, he accomplished more statistically, in terms of individual awards and his team went further than any of Naslund's teams. Makes no sense.
     
  21. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    LOL.

    You must be young. Spend some time doing a little research and educate yourself. Laziness does not make one wiser.
     
  22. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest


    LOL.

    Did you ever see MacInnis play? Research the man's career he is what I would call "pretty good"
     
  23. Stephen

    Stephen Registered User

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    Also, Don Edwards shouldn't be on any list of great NHL goalies. A guy like Curtis Joseph or Andy Moog would have been more legitimate choices given they were actually quality starters for a long period of time. What did Edwards ever do that was so special? Nothing more than a Ranford or a Kolzig or a Giguere.
     
  24. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    You cannot base everything on playoff scoring. As I said, is it Marcel Dionne's fault he had a dolt for a GM? He wouldn't make the list if it was all based on playoffs. The regular season is a great leveler of the playing field.

    When I make my adjustments, Naslund will probably drop a little. How far, I don't know for sure. What I do know is he had 3 consecutive seasons that were among the greatest three season spans by almost anyone in NHL history.
     
  25. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    Seriously Claude would be ahead of Mario Lemieux if playoffs were included using your system? Mario is one of the best playoff performers EVER. claude had good playoffs but they are NOTHING compared to Mario's. Mario was BY FAR the best player on 2 Cup teams. He has the best playoff PPG of anyone but Gretzky. He is as clutch as they come but somhow Claude would rank better in your system if playoffs are included?

    Yashin had 2 good years in Ottawa and Alfredsson has half a dozen at the same level of play or higher. Yet because Yashin was higher in Hart voting the one year he was a second team All star somehow Yashin is far better than Alfredsson?

    Yashin has had maybe the 500th best NHL career - if that - in NHL history. He sucks so bad the his team paid him not to play for them anymore.
     

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