Offseason Thread vol. XII - "Stop filling thread with spam posts" Edition

[Quo]

continue

Nobody has put forth any evidence of (Cowen) being good though. TOI has been partially referenced but that points more to a lack of depth on defence than his ability.

Prove he is good.

I've already proved to myself that he's good by watching and understanding hockey as well as having a pretty good idea as to how various young players develop. Why would I care to prove something to someone who is clearly biased against the argument when I can just wait a few months for Cowen to make you look stupid? Talk to me when he's 82 games more experienced, 200 hits more physical, 25 points higher on the all time scoring list and excels playing 20 minutes a game. Or just laugh it off as an impossibility despite him doing nearly all that 3 years ago in his only truly healthy season in the nhl.

Just to play devils advocate;

He faced top 4 QOC in all 4 of the major variations of the metric: +/- QOC, Corsi QOC, Rel Corsi QOC and TOI QOC

He had the 2nd best Rel +/- and +/- on per 60 mins, second only to Gryba.

His Goals Against on ice per 60 was 2nd best on the team

His on ice goals for per 60 was 4th, not too bad for a defensive dman (though likely aided by playing with Karlsson)

Also worth noting, his pts per 60 wasn't too bad for a defensive D, ranking 93th among all D with 40+ games played, ahead of Markov, Phaneuf, Doughty, Jack Johnson, Enstrom, Erhoff, and Carlson

Note, all stats above are at 5vs5.

Now the eye test tells us he certainly had his struggles this season, but the empirical data suggests that we may be letting some particularly large blunders (of which he had a few) cloud our judgment of the rest of his play.

For a guy who has been quoted as saying he was always worrying about whether his hip would hold up, we can only hope he's back to 100% next year; confidence on the ice should go a long way to correcting some of him more egregious errors.

I think Cowen will be a boss defenseman soon

When he had his confidence I remember a shift where he pinched and it took him like 2-3 strides to get in the corner, he smashed someone and then had a scoring chance.

Stuff like that I enjoy

Too many people have written him off, even though he's admitted to playing before his hip was back at 100%. I do worry that he may not ever feel completely comfortable with it again though.

Compared to whom Methot or Gryba???Comparing Cowen to Wiercoch is dumb ,not the same style at all .Weircoch ,s direct competition is EK and Ceci,both of whom are better than him

Wier's competition are LHD and maybe Ceci given wier has played the right side. Imo Boro and Claessan are phillips,Cowen and possibly methot's competition. Boro and Cowen play a similar game if Cowen falters this season dont be surprised to see Boro step in.

Ceci is not better than wiercioch right now. Higher ceiling yes.

Click to read more...

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

Prove to me that this coffee is tasty.

 

[UnHappyDude]

If Weircioch could play RD I would have a much more confidence in our defensive corps. Hopefully with a revitalized Cowen, he can play a better RD game. But as it stands that top 4 RD is the biggest hole on the team IMHO.

 

[Karl Eriksson56]

anyone else getting kinda (extremely) worried about the Bobby Ryan situation?

 

[Baby Ryan]

anyone else getting kinda (extremely) worried about the Bobby Ryan situation?

Considering all circumstances right now, no not really.

 

[RedWhiteBlackGold]

anyone else getting kinda (extremely) worried about the Bobby Ryan situation?

I'll start worrying in August/September. It's only been 13 days now that they could start negotiating an extension and I assume Murray has been out of the office for some of that time.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I'll start worrying in August/September. It's only been 13 days now that they could start negotiating an extension and I assume Murray has been out of the office for some of that time.

Yep. If an extension isn't in place by training camp, that's the time to wonder what's going on.

But, ya know, it wouldn't hurt to get the deal done like yesterday, either.

 

[Benjamin]

anyone else getting kinda (extremely) worried about the Bobby Ryan situation?

Still lots of time.

 

[Xspyrit]

Not sure why Cowen haters wanted to see some proof/evidence as why he doesn't suck as much as they would like to think?

Do they want their ignorant gigantic bias destroyed or what?

Awesome job Micklebot

I've tried to say the same things last season, but I don't use BTN so I can't find those numbers as fast. I just saw the evidence only looking at NHL.com, but it's in a raw form compared to this.

Just to play devils advocate;

He faced top 4 QOC in all 4 of the major variations of the metric: +/- QOC, Corsi QOC, Rel Corsi QOC and TOI QOC

He had the 2nd best Rel +/- and +/- on per 60 mins, second only to Gryba.

His Goals Against on ice per 60 was 2nd best on the team

His on ice goals for per 60 was 4th, not too bad for a defensive dman (though likely aided by playing with Karlsson)

Also worth noting, his pts per 60 wasn't too bad for a defensive D, ranking 93th among all D with 40+ games played, ahead of Markov, Phaneuf, Doughty, Jack Johnson, Enstrom, Erhoff, and Carlson

Note, all stats above are at 5vs5.

anyone else getting kinda (extremely) worried about the Bobby Ryan situation?

Yeah, I'm extremely worried about whatever happens within a NHL team.

No seriously, we shouldn't feel an ounce of stress before the end of training camp. If I was Bobby, I would probably need to get a "real feel" in the training camp. He played there last year but he has to see where the team is heading ON THE ICE. Of course players are aware that the team is spending the lowest possible within the salary cap, so there's a lot of room for improvement possible just from developing (youth) and spending. If he likes what he sees and "feels" while knowing there's still a ton of room for improvement, he'll know that this is the right thing to do (extend)

 

[dan1el]

Like others have said, no reason to worry about Ryan unless he goes into camp unsigned. If that's the case, get him traded, I'd cry if he walked.

If we're gonna attempt to get into the playoffs, we need a second pairing right defenseman and second line winger.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I hope we look at packaging some of our young forwards for an established top 6 winger (preferably LW) or an established top 4 defenseman.

At the NHL level we have Zibanejad, Chiasson, Stone, Hoffman, possibly Pageau, Lazar.
At the AHL level we have Puempel, Prince, Guptill, Dzingel, Grant, Schneider, Robinson.

We don't have room for all these young forwards at the NHL level. We should determine which prospects have the best chance to be impact NHLers relative to their trade value, and move some of the absurd depth we have right now at the pro level for a player that can help right now, and preferably be a part of of our future as well.

If I were Murray I'd be looking for a similar deal as the Perron deal that sent him to Edmonton for Paajarvi and a 2nd. That type of deal would be perfect for this team.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Berglund would be a great target for us. He's signed to a great contract - 3.7M for 3 seasons and is the perfect fit for what MacLean is trying to turn this team into. Big two-way forward that can put up 40-50P and is still young enough to be a part of this team long-term. Plus he's Swedish.

St. Louis is 3.4M away from the cap with Schwartz still to sign. They probably need to shed some cap space, and they can afford to lose Berglund with the number of talented forwards they have. Whether they are pencilling in Berglund as a center or a winger, he'll be likely playing on the 3rd line, with recently signed Ott on the 4th line. Their forward group is stacked and Berglund could be moved without much negative impact on their team.

I'd offer Pageau, prospect, 2nd for him. They traded Perron for less, have to imagine they'd consider it.

 

[Qward]

After the lowball offers on Spezza, I would offer them Prince and a 4th.

 

[Hale The Villain]

After the lowball offers on Spezza, I would offer them Prince and a 4th.

They had no reason to offer us more than what they did. Every team besides Nashville lowballed us, and considering they ended up signing Stastny, can you blame them?

In hindsight I think Sens fans were the ones that were wrong in arguing what Spezza was worth. The majority of fans on this board wouldn't accept Berglund, Rattie, 1st in exchange for Spezza

 

[RedWhiteBlackGold]

They had no reason to offer us more than what they did. Every team besides Nashville lowballed us, and considering they ended up signing Stastny, can you blame them?

In hindsight I think Sens fans were the ones that were wrong in arguing what Spezza was worth. The majority of fans on this board wouldn't accept Berglund, Rattie, 1st in exchange for Spezza

I think if we waited there would have been a better deal that presented itself, but like Sens fans Murray didn't want to wait for the best possible deal. He wanted to take the best deal at the time so we/he didn't have this dragging on like the Heatley summer.

 

[Emerica]

After the lowball offers on Spezza, I would offer them Prince and a 4th.

Yeah that'll show em!

 

[dan1el]

I hope we look at packaging some of our young forwards for an established top 6 winger (preferably LW) or an established top 4 defenseman.

At the NHL level we have Zibanejad, Chiasson, Stone, Hoffman, possibly Pageau, Lazar.
At the AHL level we have Puempel, Prince, Guptill, Dzingel, Grant, Schneider, Robinson.

We don't have room for all these young forwards at the NHL level. We should determine which prospects have the best chance to be impact NHLers relative to their trade value, and move some of the absurd depth we have right now at the pro level for a player that can help right now, and preferably be a part of of our future as well.

If I were Murray I'd be looking for a similar deal as the Perron deal that sent him to Edmonton for Paajarvi and a 2nd. That type of deal would be perfect for this team.

That deal would be perfect for every team, it was an absolute robbery.

I would look for something around Stone+, Hoffman+ or Chiasson+ for Evander Kane, and then a Prince/Puempel + Weircoch package for a RD to play behind Karlsson for the next couple of years until Ceci can do it.

 

[Benjamin]

Berglund would be a great target for us. He's signed to a great contract - 3.7M for 3 seasons and is the perfect fit for what MacLean is trying to turn this team into. Big two-way forward that can put up 40-50P and is still young enough to be a part of this team long-term. Plus he's Swedish.

St. Louis is 3.4M away from the cap with Schwartz still to sign. They probably need to shed some cap space, and they can afford to lose Berglund with the number of talented forwards they have. Whether they are pencilling in Berglund as a center or a winger, he'll be likely playing on the 3rd line, with recently signed Ott on the 4th line. Their forward group is stacked and Berglund could be moved without much negative impact on their team.

I'd offer Pageau, prospect, 2nd for him. They traded Perron for less, have to imagine they'd consider it.

Too much for Berglund.

 

[Qward]

They had no reason to offer us more than what they did. Every team besides Nashville lowballed us, and considering they ended up signing Stastny, can you blame them?

In hindsight I think Sens fans were the ones that were wrong in arguing what Spezza was worth. The majority of fans on this board wouldn't accept Berglund, Rattie, 1st in exchange for Spezza

I am not talking about the fans.

Rumor was they wouldnt even give up a 1st for Spezza. Another rumor suggested they were offering Berglund as the main part of the deal. They had plans to re-visit Spezza after signing Statsny but he had already been traded to Dallas. This tells me that they still want to unload Berglund. If they want to unload a player at 3.7M without taking money back, they do not have many options. This gives the edge to our team. Their owner said in an interview that they are not a cap team. They have a budget that should put them in the middle of the pack. They are near the top right now, trading Berglund and taking little to no money back will put them in the ballpark of their budget suggested by their owner.

Yeah that'll show em!

All is fair in love and imaginary trading.

 

[IranCondraAffair]

Too much for Berglund.

I doubt they're take less.

An NHL player and a mid-round pick or a decent prospect like Prince/Pageau/Puempel and a mid-round pick is pretty fair market value given what similar players have returned.

Ideally, they'd have mutual interest in someone like Condra/Hoffman/Greening who would become expendable with the addition of Berglund anyway. More likely they'd be after someone like Stone or Lazar or a 1st.

Now that Sobotka has signed in the KHL, I don't see the need/urgency for a trade, and I doubt we see one.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I am not talking about the fans.

Rumor was they wouldnt even give up a 1st for Spezza. Another rumor suggested they were offering Berglund as the main part of the deal. They had plans to re-visit Spezza after signing Statsny but he had already been traded to Dallas. This tells me that they still want to unload Berglund. If they want to unload a player at 3.7M without taking money back, they do not have many options. This gives the edge to our team. Their owner said in an interview that they are not a cap team. They have a budget that should put them in the middle of the pack. They are near the top right now, trading Berglund and taking little to no money back will put them in the ballpark of their budget suggested by their owner.

That's interesting. I have my doubts that St. Louis' interest in Spezza would still be high after signing Stastny, but I have no doubt Spezza's 4M salary would have been very attractive to a team that won't spend to the cap. Again, I don't blame them for offering up what they did for Spezza. Spezza backed this team into a corner by using his NTC to refuse a trade to Nashville, the only team apparently that was willing to offer up fair value. St. Louis didn't offer fair value for the same reasons San Jose didn't offer up fair value for Heatley back in 09. They knew there were a limited number of suitors and thus did not have the incentive to pony up the value that Murray wanted in return.

I also disagree that they do not have many options to trade Berglund. He's a 6'4 versatile player that can play center or wing and can put up 40-50 points while not neglecting his defensive responsibilities. That's a pretty valuable player, and the fact he's signed to an affordable cap hit for decent term probably doesn't hurt his value. There are many teams that missed out on free agents and still want to improve their team before the start of the season. If Berglund is available I have no doubt there will be plenty of interest; hopefully we are one of those teams.

 

[BonkTastic]

After the lowball offers on Spezza, I would offer them Prince and a 4th.

Yeah, but the Blues don't HAVE to move Berglund, the way we had to move Spezza, or the Canucks had to move Kesler.

Especially after losing Sobotka, and downgrading on his replacement in Ott, they're better to just play Berglund until they get an offer they like. He's signed for 3 years, they're not losing anything by selling him at a discount.

 

[Sun God Nika]

When will the clever title be done?

 

[Qward]

That's interesting. I have my doubts that St. Louis' interest in Spezza would still be high after signing Stastny, but I have no doubt Spezza's 4M salary would have been very attractive to a team that won't spend to the cap. Again, I don't blame them for offering up what they did for Spezza. Spezza backed this team into a corner by using his NTC to refuse a trade to Nashville, the only team apparently that was willing to offer up fair value. St. Louis didn't offer fair value for the same reasons San Jose didn't offer up fair value for Heatley back in 09. They knew there were a limited number of suitors and thus did not have the incentive to pony up the value that Murray wanted in return.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/31833/rumblings-blues-miss-is-stars-hit

I also disagree that they do not have many options to trade Berglund. He's a 6'4 versatile player that can play center or wing and can put up 40-50 points while not neglecting his defensive responsibilities. That's a pretty valuable player, and the fact he's signed to an affordable cap hit for decent term probably doesn't hurt his value. There are many teams that missed out on free agents and still want to improve their team before the start of the season. If Berglund is available I have no doubt there will be plenty of interest; hopefully we are one of those teams.

Flyers, Chicago, TB, Washington, Boston, Van, LA do not have the space.

Teams I doubt STL would trade with, Dallas, SJ, COL, ARZ, ANA, MIN because of being in same conference and being a playoff caliber team.

That is close to half the league. There are other teams that have RFA's that they need to sign/or have a budget that is not at the cap.
So even less teams than the ones listed can be afford to take money in without shipping money out.

That is why I feel they are limited to who they can trade with.
It is like when Murray was making a deal, he said it was difficult to find a partner to make a trade with that did not want to send more money back.

 

[Qward]

When will the clever title be done?

happy?