Ansar Khan: Offseason over

[Frk It]

Dtones520, while you just made an excellent post with a plethora of points I agree with, the one mind-numbingly frustrating problem is:

It didn't HAVE to be this bad.

Now no GM is perfect. And I'm not gonna Monday-morning-quarterback Holland so far as to say that all his mistakes were obvious at the time.

But I don't know a single fan who thought Tootoo was a great addition at the time. Or that Quincey would surely be worth a 1st rounder. Or even being ok with Samuelson, Part 2. Or now bringing Cleary back.

These blunders add up to, at best, turn what might have still been a natural regression into a larger one. Or at worst, cost a good team one last championship during the end of their run.

I don't know about "great signing", but a lot of people liked the Tootoo signing. I was one of them.

 

[Bench]

But I don't know a single fan who thought Tootoo was a great addition at the time. Or that Quincey would surely be worth a 1st rounder.

Quite a few people here liked the Tootoo deal. That was actually overwhelming popular here at the time of the signing. Wings needed grit and he was the definition of that, coming off a nice offensive year in Nashville to boot. Even after Tootoo was bought out this summer, there were people saying he wasn't given a fair chance.

As for Quincey, the forum was split on that. It wasn't a popular move, but it had plenty of fans. It was a late 1st round pick for a young defender with some offensive promise. I thought it would work out pretty good. I was wrong. Easy to say now, of course.

I don't know about "great signing", but a lot of people liked the Tootoo signing. I was one of them.

Take a trip to the way back machine.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1221919

My favorite part is everybody thinking the roster logjam would lead to some trades. We were naive in 2012.

 

[SoupNazi]

Take a trip to the way back machine.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1221919

My favorite part is everybody thinking the roster logjam would lead to some trades. We were naive in 2012.

Ah, that brings back memories. That may be the last time the majority of us were in agreement on something.

 

[dtones520]

Dtones520, while you just made an excellent post with a plethora of points I agree with, the one mind-numbingly frustrating problem is:

It didn't HAVE to be this bad.

Now no GM is perfect. And I'm not gonna Monday-morning-quarterback Holland so far as to say that all his mistakes were obvious at the time.

But I don't know a single fan who thought Tootoo was a great addition at the time. Or that Quincey would surely be worth a 1st rounder. Or even being ok with Samuelson, Part 2. Or now bringing Cleary back.

These blunders add up to, at best, turn what might have still been a natural regression into a larger one. Or at worst, cost a good team one last championship during the end of their run.

I'm not saying that Holland hasn't made bad moves, but those things have been discussed here 900,000 times over and over again, yet the posters making those posts don't acknowledge the good things Holland has done. And most of his blunders have some logic behind them. Quincey, for example, was acquired when we were near the top of the NHL in terms of points, we were looking like a serious contender in what was, likely, Lidstroms last run. We then got nailed with injuries and Quincey didn't play well and our once Cup contender was knocked out in the first round and that signing got blasted. Had we stayed healthy and made a run or won a cup I bet no one bashes that trade.

The blunders add up, but I really don't think any of them have specifically led to us being a borderline playoff team and a less than ideal free agent destination. Why would us signing Samuelsson or trading for Quincey cause Matt Niskanen to not want to give us a shot? It doesn't make sense. I'd say the uncertainty with who is going to step up and be a star on this team in the future is a bigger issue, the uncertainty with the coaching staff, and our recent struggles are a bigger issue along with us being slow to adjust to the new NHL are moreso the culprit.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

You can't excuse Holland for his bad signings just because his poor logic convinced him it was a good idea. It's basically impossible to be bad at your job if you sincerely believed you were doing the right thing.

Holland has no right to pat himself on the back about his amazing prospect pool when he goes out and signs Cleary and Quincey.

He must think his prospects are worthless garbage if he plays those two over the prospects. No freebies for Anthony Mantha, but Dan Cleary gets verbal commitments with no performance stipulations. WTF kind of pro sports GM would ever do something so ridiculous? At least make that promise to some future top ten player of all time. Danny Cleary??? Give me a ******* break.

At the end of the day Holland has no consistent vision. One vision during the regular season and a completely separate one during the off-season.

Nyquist earned a spot. Wait no he didnt. Not a man yet.

Rebuidling on the fly? Nope, i'm gonna play two vets and our team might end up being "decent."

 

[jkutswings]

Because bad signings lead to less success, which leads to fewer players wanting to come here, which leads to greater odds of bad signings, which keeps the snowball rolling downhill.

It's certainly not the only factor, but even 1 solid acquisition may have done something as potentially impactful as tip the Chicago series a couple years ago, and another playoff round may have created a better impression for the next class of free agents. Nothing is guaranteed, And we'll never know now, but clearly Detroit has gradually gone from a coveted destination to a low priority for free agents, and Holland's mistakes have played at least SOME role in that process.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

if u cant or dont blame a GM for their mistakes how can you praise them for their successes?

if the faults were do to bad luck then surely the strengths were do to good luck, otherwise your not bring impartial.

 

[jkutswings]

Oh, I never said the front office has done NOTHING right. Nyquist, Tatar, and DeKeyser have all been worthwhile acquisitions, and a handful of others have been ok as well.

But when you balance that with the laundry list of average players, questionable moves, and HGA (Hot Garbage Actions), the overall grade for the last five years is something like a 5/10, and that level of success is - for me, at least - such an unacceptable drop from previous excellence, WITHOUT AN ACTUAL REBUILD, that I refuse to support it.

 

[kook10]

Kenny also did a great job getting Leino and Brunner and did an even better job getting rid of them. Sometimes when guys don't pan out it isn't on him.

 

[VM1138]

Yet Detroit really is light years ahead of where they were last season.

The biggest downer of the offseason was missing out on a legit top 4 defencemen. But we should still be better than the first half of last season just by the virtue of not having the Quincey-Smith pairing together. In the Bruins series we were without E and our bottom pairing was Kindl and Lashoff. One of the kids will likely play if that becomes the case again.

Up front, as much as we all want to punch things in regards to the Cleary signing, we're still greatly improved from where we were to start last season. Not only was Cleary in the lineup, but so were Sammy, Bertuzzi and Emmerton while we were without Nyquist, Tatar, Helm, and Sheahan.

You add all of this to the extreme unlikelihood that the injuries will be compatible to last season and Detroit will be in fine shape. They're nowhere near tanking. They're closer to the 4 seed than they are out of the playoffs IMO.

The biggest goals are to stay healthy, quickly eradicate Cleary, improve our defensive unit (especially the bottom pairing), and to hope Howard doesn't start the year like a dumpster fire again.

Light years? No.

But the team is marginally better so long as they can maintain a normal level of healthiness. Even with their terrible play and godawful injuries the team limped into the playoffs. If things proceed normally, the Wings with this current roster should be a 3-5 seed in the East and should have a spot locked up a week or two before the regular season ends.

We also don't have as many back-to-back games on the schedule, I heard, which adds a few more wins to the team.

That being said, we didn't address any of our weaknesses, which means if we run up against a dominant team like Boston last season, we'll get thrashed again. If Cleary stays healthy we may actually be worse because we won't have the kid line, and a lot of ice time will be wasted on his falling down and turning over the puck.

 

[VM1138]

Oh, I never said the front office has done NOTHING right. Nyquist, Tatar, and DeKeyser have all been worthwhile acquisitions, and a handful of others have been ok as well.

But when you balance that with the laundry list of average players, questionable moves, and HGA (Hot Garbage Actions), the overall grade for the last five years is something like a 5/10, and that level of success is - for me, at least - such an unacceptable drop from previous excellence, WITHOUT AN ACTUAL REBUILD, that I refuse to support it.

There have only been a few bad signings the past few years. Cleary, Quincey and Samuelsson is about it. The real problem has been the lack of movement at the trade deadline and during UFA to make the team BETTER.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

There have only been a few bad signings the past few years. Cleary, Quincey and Samuelsson is about it. The real problem has been the lack of movement at the trade deadline and during UFA to make the team BETTER.

A few bad signings in a few years is FAR too many.

 

[VM1138]

currently, they project to be something like the blues without pietrangelo. or maybe anaheim without weber. good depth all around, good goalie, maybe elite winger or even two but no high end D's or C's.

a team that won't contend for the cup but is good enough to not draft high. so a team that goes nowhere.

i personally question the direction of this team very much.




they are idiots. that's why. they also were willing to offer 3 years for a guy who is 38 and broke his leg twice last year.

A rebuild-on-the-fly could work for the Wings, if Holland would manage it better. Think about it, so many teams lack depth or quality prospects. Even if we don't have elite level prospects, we have enough 3rd and 2nd line prospects that we could always use that surplus to get quality players from a low-ranking team. There's no reason a team can't succeed in a rebuild with good drafting like the Wings have.

 

[dtones520]

Oh, I never said the front office has done NOTHING right. Nyquist, Tatar, and DeKeyser have all been worthwhile acquisitions, and a handful of others have been ok as well.

But when you balance that with the laundry list of average players, questionable moves, and HGA (Hot Garbage Actions), the overall grade for the last five years is something like a 5/10, and that level of success is - for me, at least - such an unacceptable drop from previous excellence, WITHOUT AN ACTUAL REBUILD, that I refuse to support it.

The fact that we are in a very good position to potentially transition into the next generation of Detroit Red Wings without needing an actual rebuild is a credit to Ken Holland and his staff. There has been like 3 or 4 bad signings in the last 5 years. Cleary, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi and, maybe, Quincey (I don't think it's a bad signing, I also don't think it's a good one but it can be if he plays like he did the second half of last year). All of those signings were short term deals. They aren't signings that have hampered us with terrible contracts for years to come. And due to the injuries of the first 3 players listed, we got to see our young core anyways.

I'll say it again, by sticking to our system we have kept our organizations young core in place for the past 5-7 years and all of our top prospects are NHL ready or very close to being NHL ready. If they are truly top prospects, then we shouldn't have anything to worry about going forward other than who is going to step up and be the next superstar. And if no one does or looks like they are going to we have cap space and assets to trade still.

There have only been a few bad signings the past few years. Cleary, Quincey and Samuelsson is about it. The real problem has been the lack of movement at the trade deadline and during UFA to make the team BETTER.

The fact that we haven't made a trade at the deadline over the past few years has put us in a better position going forward. Especially now with the log jam of NHL ready forwards and a potential log jam of NHL ready defensemen. We have a very solid young core that has developed in our system that is NHL ready which means if our team stays healthy this year, mainly Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen and Kronwall, we have a team that can contend if our young players keep progressing like they did last year. On top of that we have pieces to trade for needs at the deadline with having too many NHL ready forwards and defensemen.

As for the UFAs, yes, we have missed on our top guys like Suter and Niskanen, but we also haven't handed out any long term, bad contracts like Buffalo did with Ehrhoff or Tampa did with Carle. If our biggest complaint is a 2 year deal for Kyle Quincey, who played very well to finish last year, and a one year, earn your spot deal to Dan Cleary, then I'd say we are going to be alright.

 

[dtones520]

A rebuild-on-the-fly could work for the Wings, if Holland would manage it better. Think about it, so many teams lack depth or quality prospects. Even if we don't have elite level prospects, we have enough 3rd and 2nd line prospects that we could always use that surplus to get quality players from a low-ranking team. There's no reason a team can't succeed in a rebuild with good drafting like the Wings have.

How has he not succeeded in rebuilding on the fly? In the two years where everyone thought we would be rebuilding we made the playoffs. In one of the years we were one shot away from making the WCF. By not trading prospects we now have four young players who are capable of putting up, in order, a 30-35 goal season, a 20-30 goal season, a 45-50+ season and a 40-45 point season, if they progress off of last year. We have hit a potential home run in drafting Mantha and made another solid pick in Larkin. We have a solid young core of defensemen that may be NHL ready. And we have an up and coming stud goalie in the system, who is also NHL ready.

If our big four can stay healthy and our young guys match last years numbers or surpass them we are a piece, maybe two, from being a cup contender and if Mantha, the wild card in all of this, proves he is ready for the big show by the trade deadline we can deal a guy like Tatar for the defenseman we didn't sign this offseason.

Anyway, I'd say the rebuild on the fly is going pretty well.

 

[Roy S]

The rebuild on the fly depends how long Z, D and Kronwall can remain 1st line/1st pairing players. All of the Wings recent top prospects will be up by 16-17.

With all the defenseman coming up in 2 years, they could do a 13 forwards and 8 defenseman alignment. 16-17 could look something like this:

Z-D-Mantha
Nyquist-Sheahan-Jurco
Tatar-Weiss-Franzen
Pulk-Helm-Abdelkader
Nosek

Kronwall-Smith
Sproul-Ericsson
Marchenko-Dekeyser
Ouellet-Backman

Howard
Mrazek

They should have loads of cap space to make a major UFA addition if needed, as well. All the current 25 and under guys would still be on RFA deals to restrict their salary and I doubt Helm or Abdelkader would cost more than $4 million a year (assuming they are re-signed when they are UFA). That team would probably fit under the current $69 million Salary Cap.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

The rebuild on the fly depends how long Z, D and Kronwall can remain 1st line/1st pairing players. All of the Wings recent top prospects will be up by 16-17.

With all the defenseman coming up in 2 years, they could do a 13 forwards and 8 defenseman alignment. 16-17 could look something like this:

Z-D-Mantha
Nyquist-Sheahan-Jurco
Tatar-Weiss-Franzen
Pulk-Helm-Abdelkader
Nosek

Kronwall-Smith
Sproul-Ericsson
Marchenko-Dekeyser
Ouellet-Backman

Howard
Mrazek

They should have loads of cap space to make a major UFA addition if needed, as well. All the current 25 and under guys would still be on RFA deals to restrict their salary and I doubt Helm or Abdelkader would cost more than $4 million a year (assuming they are re-signed when they are UFA). That team would probably fit under the current $69 million Salary Cap.

Only 2 years away, I would be happy with that lineup.

 

[Henkka]

The rebuild on the fly depends how long Z, D and Kronwall can remain 1st line/1st pairing players. All of the Wings recent top prospects will be up by 16-17.

With all the defenseman coming up in 2 years, they could do a 13 forwards and 8 defenseman alignment. 16-17 could look something like this:

I really liked Brendan Smith last season when he played as a forward. Maybe he could be the next Burns/Byfuglien -type, and that solves our youngsters "logjam" at defence.

 

[justabill]

I think detroit might also have a problem with their location. What player with the choice of Detroit or say Vancouver would want to live in Detroit? Who wants to live in Detroit? Great hockey town, bad for everything else. I'd rather live in Nashville, Dallas, pretty much everywhere but Detroit, (except St Louis and Pittsburgh) I think that is a huge detractor for the wings trade/FA signings.

But I still think the Wings have some good forward talent and half a defense (3 good guys) and Smith is getting better. Quincey is a boat anchor, I think the opposing team plans to skate and or dump on his side just for the easy access to the zone. Finally could the wings get a healthy year after 2 bad injury seasons. I'm hoping these guys can make it deep in the second round. Especially if the other teams think their done.

 

[justabill]

Who is our big four. Z, D, Nyquist and.....

 

[Chance on Chance]

Who is our big four. Z, D, Nyquist and.....

Kronwall

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I think it is pretty early to call Nyquist one of the big four.

 

[SantosHalper]

I think detroit might also have a problem with their location. What player with the choice of Detroit or say Vancouver would want to live in Detroit? Who wants to live in Detroit? Great hockey town, bad for everything else. I'd rather live in Nashville, Dallas, pretty much everywhere but Detroit, (except St Louis and Pittsburgh) I think that is a huge detractor for the wings trade/FA signings.

If you're rich hockey player, then you live in Bloomfield Hills. Last time when Red Wings player lived in Detroit, was probably in 70's or 80's.

Red Wings are in reboild mode, that's why players dont come to Detroit. 2001 we didn't have that problem.

 

[Vladdy84]

If you're rich hockey player, then you live in Bloomfield Hills. Last time when Red Wings player lived in Detroit, was probably in 70's or 80's.

Red Wings are in reboild mode, that's why players dont come to Detroit. 2001 we didn't have that problem.

I think some of the younger guys live in Condos/Flats in Detroit.

 

[justabill]

I think it is pretty early to call Nyquist one of the big four.

I agree, but who are the big four? Dats, Hank....and.....????