Ansar Khan: Offseason over

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
44,017
11,677
OPTION 1: Keep wasting time, believing the myth that, some time in the next few years, this combination of aging vets and raw youth (with occasional minor additions) will be enough to luck into one more Cup.

OPTION 2: Holland could realize the run is long over, have the stones to swallow his pride, trade Hank and/or Pavel while they still have value, and put the franchise in a VERY favorable position to peak again when Mantha has 2-3 years under his belt.

Now guess which option the fans want, and which one management wants. Wake me in 5 years...maybe the new venue will at least be interesting.

No. Just no.
 

probertrules24

Registered User
Jul 10, 2007
2,901
1
Canada
OPTION 2: Holland could realize the run is long over, have the stones to swallow his pride, trade Hank and/or Pavel while they still have value, and put the franchise in a VERY favorable position to peak again when Mantha has 2-3 years under his belt.

Now guess which option the fans want, and which one management wants. Wake me in 5 years...maybe the new venue will at least be interesting.

Coming from this fan I kindly ask for you to never again speak for this fan. Thank you. :)
 

TatarTangle

Registered User
Sep 28, 2011
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Detroit
No. Just no.
Not that I agree, or that it would happen, but he does have a point.

Once Zetterberg and Datsyuk are gone this team could be bad. You can get away with not having a true #1D if you have three competent, legitimate NHL pairs. But if you don't have a true #1C in the NHL? Good luck. There isn't one in the farm system and given current events that transpired there isn't a chance Holland snags one in FA. Not that they make it to FA to begin with, though.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
44,017
11,677
Not that I agree, or that it would happen, but he does have a point.

Once Zetterberg and Datsyuk are gone this team could be bad. You can get away with not having a true #1D if you have three competent, legitimate NHL pairs. But if you don't have a true #1C in the NHL? Good luck. There isn't one in the farm system and given current events that transpired there isn't a chance Holland snags one in FA. Not that they make it to FA to begin with, though.

He doesn't have a point at this stage in the game.
 

gretskidoo

Registered User
Nov 26, 2011
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Trading Dats and/or Z would be the biggest mistake anyone could ever make. Literally impossible to find better role models for our kids..
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,077
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Trading Dats and/or Z would be the biggest mistake anyone could ever make. Literally impossible to find better role models for our kids..

I could imagine that happening at last season of their current contracts, if we are 20 points out of the playoff spot at the trade dealine. But just won't believe that will happen.

At 2016-17, when Datsyuk's contract will end, Nyquist is 28, Tatar 25, Sheahan 24, Jurco 23, and those guys are carrying this team with a bigger positive impact than Zetterberg, Mule and Datsyuk will regress at same time.

But Datsyuk still has that NMC until end of his contract, and that's why I'll give 0% proability for him to be traded.
 

odin1981

There can be only 1!
Mar 8, 2013
5,033
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I could imagine that happening at last season of their current contracts, if we are 20 points out of the playoff spot at the trade dealine. But just won't believe that will happen.

At 2016-17, when Datsyuk's contract will end, Nyquist is 28, Tatar 25, Sheahan 24, Jurco 23, and those guys are carrying this team with a bigger positive impact than Zetterberg, Mule and Datsyuk will regress at same time.

But Datsyuk still has that NMC until end of his contract, and that's why I'll give 0% proability for him to be traded.

Dats has a nmc? Not that I want to trade him but I was unaware he had one.
 

TatarTangle

Registered User
Sep 28, 2011
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He doesn't have a point at this stage in the game.
Because you say so? Got ya.

Again...I'm not saying I agree but you could trade Datsyuk and get a future #1C out of the deal and the team would be in a better position five years down the road.

I mean, I'm all ears for your idea(s) on how to acquire a future #1C.

Trade for one? There goes a combination of Nyquist, Mantha, Jurco, Sproul / Ouellet, 1st, future 1st. That's not going to happen.

FA? :laugh: I don't think so

Ultimately it's going to be pretty grim once Datsyuk is gone and Zetterberg is winding down and they'll probably be able to draft one in the top 5.

So

You could trade Datsyuk and avoid that, which was his point. It's not going to happen for many reasons - Drafted here, playoff streak, it's Pavel Datsyuk, etc etc etc. but, whatever. Dan Cleary.
 

The Geelee

Registered User
Jul 27, 2013
3,061
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Because you say so? Got ya.

Again...I'm not saying I agree but you could trade Datsyuk and get a future #1C out of the deal and the team would be in a better position five years down the road.

I mean, I'm all ears for your idea(s) on how to acquire a future #1C.

Trade for one? There goes a combination of Nyquist, Mantha, Jurco, Sproul / Ouellet, 1st, future 1st. That's not going to happen.

FA? :laugh: I don't think so

Ultimately it's going to be pretty grim once Datsyuk is gone and Zetterberg is winding down and they'll probably be able to draft one in the top 5.

So

You could trade Datsyuk and avoid that, which was his point. It's not going to happen for many reasons - Drafted here, playoff streak, it's Pavel Datsyuk, etc etc etc. but, whatever. Dan Cleary.

A 36 year old Datsyuk has no chance of landing a future #1 center, no team would do that. It would most likely be a prospect with top 6 potential + 1st round pick, which is pretty crappy return for a player like Datsyuk
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,077
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Tampere, Finland
Because you say so? Got ya.

Again...I'm not saying I agree but you could trade Datsyuk and get a future #1C out of the deal and the team would be in a better position five years down the road.

I mean, I'm all ears for your idea(s) on how to acquire a future #1C..

Something like that Tyler Seguin -situation has to happen at Western conference. Then do the same what Jim Nill did.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
10,851
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Hank and Pavel just won't be traded. Period. Dats has NMC and Z is our Captain.

Have a good sleep for the next five years, I'll enjoy about our +100 point season next season again.

And while I agree neither will end up being traded, we'll have to agree to disagree on the results. Even IF the roster stays healthy enough to put up 100 points, regular season records completely lost any meaning to me a long time ago. Cup or bust... which means bust.
 

TatarTangle

Registered User
Sep 28, 2011
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Detroit
A 36 year old Datsyuk has no chance of landing a future #1 center, no team would do that. It would most likely be a prospect with top 6 potential + 1st round pick, which is pretty crappy return for a player like Datsyuk
Datsyuk is a top 10 player in the NHL. I'd be willing to bet you can snag a future #1C out of a desperate team.
 

TatarTangle

Registered User
Sep 28, 2011
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Detroit
Something like that Tyler Seguin -situation has to happen at Western conference. Then do the same what Jim Nill did.
I hope it does. But at this point I don't trust, or believe, Ken Holland can do what Jim Nill did. A situation like that is something you can't bank on. The whole proactive / reactive GM thing.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,202
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crease
Datsyuk is a top 10 player in the NHL. I'd be willing to bet you can snag a future #1C out of a desperate team.

And what team is desperate, needs a 36-year-old center for 3 more years, and has a future #1 center to spare?

On top of that, Datsyuk would be required to waive to join any team.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
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Something like that Tyler Seguin -situation has to happen at Western conference. Then do the same what Jim Nill did.

Yeah, about that. Jim Nill packaged a 70-point two-way winger in his prime and on a darling contract along with a young scoring winger in Rielly Smith. And top defensive prospect Joe Morrow.

That package for us would basically be Nyquist + another Nyquist + Sproul.

That's how you get a young #1 center.
 

SoupNazi

Serenity now. Insanity later.
Feb 6, 2010
26,341
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Yeah, about that. Jim Nill packaged a 70-point two-way winger in his prime and on a darling contract along with a young scoring winger in Rielly Smith. And top defensive prospect Joe Morrow.

That package for us would basically be Nyquist + another Nyquist + Sproul.

That's how you get a young #1 center.

Exactly.

I love Datsyuk; he's one of my favorite players ever, but you're not getting a sure-fire #1C out of him at this stage of the game.
 

TatarTangle

Registered User
Sep 28, 2011
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Detroit
And what team is desperate, needs a 36-year-old center for 3 more years, and has a future #1 center to spare?

On top of that, Datsyuk would be required to waive to join any team.
I don't know, it's all hypothetical. Unfortunately I don't have enough time in my life to study every single NHL teams prospect pool and current roster. I don't even know who was drafted first this year, nor do I really give a ****. I don't have time to give a ****. I'm not getting paid $$$$$$$$ for that to be my job *cough cough* Ken Holland *cough cough*. But in case you missed me saying, twice, I don't agree with that OP and know it won't happen. But you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that Datsyuk, despite his age (he's better now at 36 then he was at 26 and shows no signs of slowing down), can't get a ransom from someone. Even if it's only for a couple years.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,202
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But you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that Datsyuk, despite his age (he's better now at 36 then he was at 26 and shows no signs of slowing down), can't get a ransom from someone. Even if it's only for a couple years.

Maybe before the salary cap, but teams don't operate like that anymore.

Best case scenario would be what Martin St. Louis returned. Basically a 29-year-old UFA winger, and two late 1st round picks. Not awful, but a far cry from a ransom.

And nobody is saying it's your job to figure this out, but if you're going to insist it's possible, the onus is on you to provide some kind of reasonable context for the statement.
 

Run the Jewels

Make Detroit Great Again
Jun 22, 2006
13,819
1,751
In the Garage
If I was going to criticize anything about the way Suter was pursued (which I'm not even sure there's a point)

It would be that we ridiculously low-balled Parise, almost to the point of where I would laugh if I was Parise's agent, and they ended up going as a packaged deal. Seriously we were 25 million dollars off of what we ended up agreeing to.

My only point in bringing up Suter is that it was obvious the franchise hitched their fortunes to signing him when he hit free agency. When he signed with Minnesota we were pretty much removed from contender status due to Nick Lidstrom retiring. Do we beat the Hawks in the 2012-13 playoffs if we have Suter in the lineup? All I know is our odds increase substantially. He absolutely abused Jonathan Toews in that first round series between the Wild and the Hawks.

So yeah, I don't have any great interest in rehashing our futile pursuit of Suter or our complete lack of pursuit for Wizniewski. It's pretty clear we fanned on all attempts to improve our defense (Suter, Burns, Bogosian, Wiz, Bouwmeester, etc) however Suter was clearly the one guy who would have kept us highly competitive.
 

TatarTangle

Registered User
Sep 28, 2011
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Detroit
Maybe before the salary cap, but teams don't operate like that anymore.

Best case scenario would be what Martin St. Louis returned. Basically a 29-year-old UFA winger, and two late 1st round picks. Not awful, but a far cry from a ransom.

And nobody is saying it's your job to figure this out, but if you're going to insist it's possible, the onus is on you to provide some kind of reasonable context for the statement.
Pavel Datsyuk is a tad more valuable than Marty St. Louis. Offensively MSL has an edge on Datsyuk, but not by much, and Pavel beats him to a pulp in every other aspect of the game. AINEC.

Onus? Ok, I'll have a list of the top 5 teams that'll do that by tomorrow. I'm going to spend all night rifling through all the teams prospect pools and current situation.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,202
14,898
crease
Onus? Ok, I'll have a list of the top 5 teams that'll do that by tomorrow. I'm going to spend all night rifling through all the teams prospect pools and current situation.

Sounds good. Make sure you include the approved coversheet for any reports. There was a memo about it.

And if you've seen SoupNazi's stapler, make sure you get that back to him, he's kinda going wild about it.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
10,851
8,576
I could imagine that happening at last season of their current contracts, if we are 20 points out of the playoff spot at the trade dealine. But just won't believe that will happen.

At 2016-17, when Datsyuk's contract will end, Nyquist is 28, Tatar 25, Sheahan 24, Jurco 23, and those guys are carrying this team with a bigger positive impact than Zetterberg, Mule and Datsyuk will regress at same time.

But Datsyuk still has that NMC until end of his contract, and that's why I'll give 0% proability for him to be traded.

NMC details aside - wasn't aware of that prior to my last post - the basic principle I'm founding my opinions on is REGRESSION.

When the Yzerman core was winning Cups, and the next generation of youth was joining the roster, I always thought there would be a regression. Not that Datsyuk and Zetterberg aren't very good players. They are. But their generation of Red Wing players simply isn't as elite as their HOF predecessors.

A great problem to have, coming of that kind of success, and even with dropping from elite to very very good, they won another Cup. But the REAL problem is that I believe this NEXT generation - Nyquist, Tatar, DeKeyser, Mantha, etc - will never be even as good as this current Datsyuk / Zetterberg core. So - if I'm right - there won't be any uptick after this current "playing out the string" era. If anything, things will get worse before they get better.

Now obviously this is all just one guy's opinion. I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. But the consequences for being wrong are blowing up a mediocre team to build a bad one, which to me have no distinction (from a Cup perspective).

However, if I AM right, then either the roster needs some major changes to contend again, or the Detroit Red Wings will be the next Detroit Pistons, hanging on to everybody until nobody has any value left, and they slide into oblivion anyway. So why not take the chance of shaking things up now?

Whatever, since anything I say won't change Holland's actions whatsoever, but it hurts to grow up with a franchise, watch them gain relevance, transcend relevance into elite success, then seemingly die a slow withering death. Guess I'm just the, "yank the band-aid off now" type.
 

dtones520

Registered User
Jun 10, 2008
3,097
0
Midland, MI
So what do you propose he does? Offer him $100m from the start, and go up from there?

That's not how negotiation works.

So what do you propose he does? Offer him $100m from the start, and go up from there?

That's not how negotiation works.

Why bother, most of the people on here bashing Holland never have an explanation or a realistic idea of what he should have done in lieu of what he did.

For years Detroit has had a system in place for dealing with prospects, free agents and trades, for years that system worked with great success. Young guys waited in the wings until they had ripened and were truly ready for the NHL. UFA's would line up to come here and would be willing to take less to come here. We could get away with trading first round picks along with mid level prospects because we knew we could fill needs in free agency. Then the salary cap came into play and it was put in place to hinder the way we, and other teams who built that way, did business. Problem is, our system continued to work for the first few years of the cap era. Rafalski came here and took a bit less to do so, Hossa signed with us on a one year deal because we were Detroit, we traded for Stuart for very little and resigned him to a favorable contract thousands of miles away from his family because we were Detroit. Why was that a problem? It made our management too overconfident in their way of doing business when the league was trying to prevent teams from building that way.

So, it starts to crumble slowly. In the old NHL, we would have signed Hossa and Franzen no problem, we could have made a favorable trade for a replacement for Rafalski, we could have done the same for a Brad Stuart replacement. The problem is, with the cap, trades become more and more expensive because teams are closer to being a contender that never would have in the old NHL. There is a ton more competition in free agency and teams who may not have been bidding high dollars for players were, so when we come in "low" we look worse. And as our aging superstars left, we slowly lost our luster. But, because the system worked at the start of the cap era, we stuck to it and it has cost us. Our management needs to adjust, and seems to be starting to do that. They still are stuck in some of their old ways (Dan Cleary) but are changing some things up.

As humbling as the past few offseasons have been, I still look at it this way, rebuilding was inevitable, we are in our rebuilding phase right now. Based on the past 6 years work, we have done a lot of positive things to help us rebuild on the fly without missing the playoffs. We have kept all but one (Jarnkrok) of our top prospects, we have acquired more draft picks than we have traded away, we are in a good spot with the cap (which I guess doesn't matter now that we missed on our targets) and we haven't, outside of Franzen, given out any really bad long term contracts (the jury is still out on Weiss). So, as much as losing out on Niskanen or Suter has stung, we still have a team that can compete for a playoff spot with a young core being a huge part of that. We have a plethora of NHL ready forwards, and if Mantha progresses faster than anticipated, which he may very well do, a guy like Tatar becomes a very valuable trade piece for a defensemen at some point.

Looking at a lot of the league and the troubles they have had, I'll take our bout of frustration any day.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
10,851
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Dtones520, while you just made an excellent post with a plethora of points I agree with, the one mind-numbingly frustrating problem is:

It didn't HAVE to be this bad.

Now no GM is perfect. And I'm not gonna Monday-morning-quarterback Holland so far as to say that all his mistakes were obvious at the time.

But I don't know a single fan who thought Tootoo was a great addition at the time. Or that Quincey would surely be worth a 1st rounder. Or even being ok with Samuelson, Part 2. Or now bringing Cleary back.

These blunders add up to, at best, turn what might have still been a natural regression into a larger one. Or at worst, cost a good team one last championship during the end of their run.
 

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