Discussion in 'Montreal Canadiens' started by Adam Michaels, Apr 8, 2018.
Real talk, would you change rosters with Toronto or not?
So when are the changes being made to the Canadiens management staff? Kept hearing that changes wouldn't be made last week because there were a couple of Rocket games left, it's over now so lets get on with it Molson, want to see you put your money where your mouth is!
Yesterday was the Laval post-mortem. My guess is some changes will be made this week.
Ignoring details and underappeeciating the importance of employees at any level of an organization is precisely what contributes to bad cultures.
Winning organizations in any industry recognize that excellence is an everyday and everywhere thing.
It's funny, because every great leader that's ever written about how they built success repeats the exact same concept... Very easy to understand, maybe it's the simplicity of it that explains why some dismiss it so readily?
You shouldn't confuse what I think and what the Montreal Canadiens should do.
I don't personally care who assistant coaches are, it doesn't mean teams shouldn't.
Point of my post was just to say that of all the things that the Montreal Canadiens need to address this summer...who is going to be assistant coach in charge or running the D on game nights, isn't very high.
The Habs could hire the best assistant coach you could think of and if they return the same D corps they had this year..
He's not going to perform miracles.
Saying a sport team shouldn't place much importance on whom they hire as coaches is a surprisingly shortsighted opinion that shows a tremendous lack of insight into what the sport environment looks like to an athlete... At least if performance on the ice is the end result we're talking about
It's a valid point to assume that only flipping a few assistant coaches in and out would strictly serve as a smoke screen and provide little real change going forward. Bergevin has a much taller order to fill in order to even START turning around this team in terms of EVENTUALLY reaching the status of contender.
First of all...I wasn't talking about EVERY sport team.
I think coaching matters more in certain sports, football for example.
Hockey, i've never been convinced that coaching makes a huge difference, I think talent far outweighs the contributions coaches make.
And that's talking about head coaches...assistant coaches?
To me, their main purpose serves to act as the in-between head coaches/players.
You don't have to agree with me and you can call my opinion short sighted all you want...
I also recall arguing with folks when Therrien was fired & Julien hired that it wouldn't make a difference because our roster was fundamentally flawed...
well...here we are.
Julien may be better with the media and communicating with his players - but on ice results have been worse under Julien, not because he's a bad coach and Therrien was better.
But because the quality of the roster has dwindled
I’m glad you have such factually correct information. Truth is you, nor anyone else not named Tavares knows what he wants. For any reason you come up with him not wanting to come to Montreal, I can think of several as to why he would.
Time will tell.
LOL....really?.....look at their youth and their future!!....they still have 2-3 years to go BEFORE they hit their peak!!....and that peak will last a solid 5 years or more!!
if somebody offered you a straight up trade team for team with toronto, only a fool would not take it!
I assume that if Tavares dont come back to NYI , he will want to sign with a good team. Not a team worst than the NYI itself
Curious as to what you base this opinion on?
Do you have any experience with it, either directly or through direct conversations with a large number of people who have competed at the high performance level?
as for the MT/Julien comment.... that's a pretty superficial observation. Focusing narrowly on a small sample of performance output is a very tenuous way to formulate, or worse, validate an opinion.
Because the Habs will forever be a terrible team for all of eternity. Taking a one year sample size works both ways. We finished first in the division last year. So by that theory we were always going to be the best team in the East. Tampa didn’t make the playoffs last year so why on Earth would Stamkos sign with a loser non playoff team?
Narrow minded points of view absent of any objective thought with blinders to possible outcomes that don’t fit your narrative are a terrible way to view things. Things change, teams get better or worse EVERY YEAR. No reason we can’t be back to contenders in the next year or two, especially if Tavares signs here even if that doesn’t fit your narrative.
I'm not a player (obvioiusly) and I have never played professionally (if it wasn't obvious, it is now) so it's just my opinion from watching hockey and sports the last 30yrs.
I can demonstrably see the differences coaches make in football, that's why there are so many coaches on a team if you include coordinators/assistants/etc.
In hockey, I have always thought that talent far outweighs any tactical advantage a coach provides because hockey is for the most part, unscripted.
In football for example, plays are draw up and players have to be in certain spots at a certain time...in hockey, you can draw up plans, but the game moves way to fast and things rarely happen as you draw them up.
Now don't take this to mean that I think coaches are useless...I've just always found their influence to be overstated as it relates to x's & o's and overall strategy.
I think in today's game, coaches are more valuable for how they handle different personalities, less how they handle x's & o's...pretty much every team is running similar systems or rather, subtle variances from each other.
Again, I think coaching in the NHL, is overstated...not useless, but overstated and that's what I think about head coaches.
When it comes to assistant coaches, I think they're even more overstated.
If that's shortsighted, so be it, I guess given i'm not a player nor have I ever been, only allows me to have a shortsighted opinion. I'm sure actual players/coaches would tell me differently.
Which is exactly what I argued when certain folks suggested the mere presence of Julien would make this team exponentially better.
a dozen years ago Mike Sullivan was laughed out of Boston, everyone thought he was a terrible coach.
When he was re-hired by the Pens people wondered what the hell they were doing resurrecting him.
He's now won back to back Cups.
Is it because he's now become a genius coach?
or is it because he's coaching Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Phil Kessel, etc.???
So our GM, Asst. GM/former Head Scout and two of our Eastern amateur scouts... I don't think they would go to Drummondville just to scout a potential second round pick in Beaudin. They're probably scouting Veleno heavily too. And Xavier Bernard as a bonus.
its not a sample size.....we have been a mediocre team since the 90's and so have the NYI...there really isn't much difference, except we had a lucky run in 2010, but who really cares about that today?
Already forgot 2014? Or it doesn't fit your agenda?
what was so great about 2014?....nothing that i can think of,
we won a round over the lowly sens?......and you consider that a big accomplishment?
I know you like ****ting on the Habs but at least get your facts straight.
2014 was the year the Habs swept the Bolts in 4 and won in 7 against the Bruins. Had Kreider not taken out Price's knee we probably would have had a good shot at reaching the finals that year.
yeah because losing game 6 1-0 was a goaltending problem.....price would have won that game huh?
still no big accomplishment, and we didn't reach the final, that's all thats relevant
bolded is precisely why the coaching staff is incredibly important... and the reality is that personality management doesn't occur overnight. Culture gets built over time and good ones require a huge degree of trust.
"Coaching" is, as you point out, not really about the x's and o's... that's the easy stuff. The hard stuff is the art of managing group performance (which is far more similar across sports and across performance disciplines than it is different).
yes, well that is not what i was responding to, nor the comment I made. I was responding to your comment suggesting coaching was not a priority for the team to focus on.
Though, since you bring it up, I would tend to agree with the opinion that, over time, a Julien coached team will be exponentially better than a Therrien coached one. Julien, for his issues, seems to me to be a far better coach than Therrien ever was or could be as far as managing performance and development. Hard to hold this season over him given all of the external and organizational factors at play that were clearly undermining performance.
Can't simply evaluate coaching (or leadership) based on a sample size of outcomes... there are so many variables that impact an outcome, many of which random and/or external. It takes a far deeper analysis to evaluate how effective a leader or leadership group has been. For example, in some situations simply keeping up morale and group work ethic while results/outcomes are terrible is better "coaching" job than a peer whose team finishes at the top of the standings. Heck, Jean Perron won a cup! Bad leaders sometimes have good outcomes, and good leaders sometimes have bad outcomes. A successful organization needs to be good at seeing past the superficial indicators and develop a far more robust model for evaluating staff... currently, habs criteria for employment seems to be foxhole loyalty and relational ties... its pathetic and symptomatic of a very poorly led organization... in that context, seeing strong hiring and firing decisions is perhaps the ONLY positive sign that matters as far as this offseason goes.
Obviously the Habs offense struggled against the Rags. However you don't think that having to play Tokarski over Price in those other 5 games didn't hurt the Habs chances of winning that series?
Ok - so we agree then?
Not quite sure what the debate is about here...notice the premise of my comment that you originally commented on was about me not caring whether or not Sylvain Lefebvre coaches our D as an assistant coach. I think this team has bigger issues to deal with.
As long as the D-corps is built as it is, it doens't matter who is assistant coach. I think the biggest issue under SL has been his inability to develop talent to the NHL.
Well the assistant coach isn't directly responsible for developing talent to the NHL...his main role is to work as the sponge between the coach & players, know which D's should be out on the ice at what time and against who, run special teams either power play or penalty kill.
it might be a promotion for SL in terms of leagues (AHL to NHL) but his influence and power is actually greatly reduced if he was ever named assistant coach.
That being said - i have a hard time understanding how Bergevin could think this is a wise idea.
That's correct - I think assistant coach is not a priority for this team, TODAY.
I stand by that statement.
Yes - as long as the talent level is upgraded.
What has happened under Julien since Therrien took over?
The roster got worse and the results followed suit. Claude Julien just finished coaching one of the worst seasons of the Montreal Canadiens modern era, does that mean Therrien was better than him?
Of course not - it just means Therrien coached a better roster.
Probabl the best example of what i'm referring too when I say coaching is overstated.
I'll repeat what i'm trying to say...
hiring & firing decisions of the coaching staff are secondary and even tertiary to me.
Having a roster that a good coach can maximise talent from, matters way more. As I said earlier, think about the best assistant coach you can think of, place him in Montreal as one of CJ's assistants...
If you return the same exact D corps next year, results won't be all that better.
if you have a good all around team, then it shouldn't matter really,
MANY cup champions in recent years have won playing with their backup goalies,
why were the capitals able to get over 100 points this season when holtby had a horrible year?...his numbers we pretty much the same as price...because they have a GOOD TEAM!!
my point is.....OTHER teams find a way to win and be successful without their number one goaltender......but when Price goes down, its basically just throw your sticks on the ice and throw in the towel....its over