Value of: NYR - MON and CAL

Double Dion

Jets fan 28/06/2014
Feb 9, 2011
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Good proposal on the Flames side. Fox is a stud, but there is uncertainty about him signing. Zuccarello has the value I'd be looking for in a Fox trade, but he is more of a playmaker. If I'm Treliving I'm looking for a shooter. The Flames have plenty of guys who can create chances but only 2 good shooters.
 

Deficient Mode

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Mar 25, 2011
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Not sure a d-man who puts up 39 points as a rookie is average. I think picks are really fetishized here, but even I'm not sure Habs would do that deal for 3OA. I personally wouldn't do it as NYR either. Skjei is a somewhat proven commodity in a position we badly need young but experienced players in.

Maybe a bit above average, but not much. Picks are definitely fetishized here in return for established star players, but Skjei isn't that. I'd much rather bet on Hughes becoming a #1 defenseman than Skjei. Adding a good but not great prospect like Howden isn't going to tip the scale for me.
 

haveandare

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Jul 2, 2009
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Maybe a bit above average, but not much. Picks are definitely fetishized here in return for established star players, but Skjei isn't that. I'd much rather bet on Hughes becoming a #1 defenseman than Skjei. Adding a good but not great prospect like Howden isn't going to tip the scale for me.
Sergachev just scored 40 as a rookie and people think his value is off the charts. 39 points for a rookie d man is well above average. Thats more than Ekblad, Giordano or Werenski scored this year.

Having said that, yeah I could see MTL not taking the deal and I wouldn't offer it from an NYR standpoint.
 

Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
Jun 6, 2010
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Sergachev just scored 40 as a rookie and people think his value is off the charts. 39 points for a rookie d man is well above average. Thats more than Ekblad, Giordano or Werenski scored this year.

Having said that, yeah I could see MTL not taking the deal and I wouldn't offer it from an NYR standpoint.

Sergachev is 19 years old. Skjei was 22-23 when he achieved that.

And I'm not sure bringing up Sergachev is going to convince Montreal fans that the team should give up the 3rd OA. If anything it does the opposite.
 

haveandare

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Sergachev is 19 years old. Skjei was 22-23 when he achieved that.

And I'm not sure bringing up Sergachev is going to convince Montreal fans that the team should give up the 3rd OA. If anything it does the opposite.
I said I could see them not taking that deal. I'm not advocating for it at all for either side, just disputing the idea that Skjei's rookie season was average. Regardless of age, 39 points from a rookie d-man is certainly above average.
 

ole ole

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Oct 7, 2017
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This should do it!

3OA is worth more than Skjei, but not night and day more, just an appreciable chunk more.

9OA is worth less than Montreal 2019 1st unprotected which is what I suggested before.
Figure some improvement, Habs upgrade a few slots. Chance that could move either way, but %wise, it is reasonable to expect it stays the same as would be prelottery.
However, 2018 = immediate acquisition, faster development/readiness and while 2019 projects as a good draft year, this 2018 class is the one considered deeper and better.

The difference between the above swaps are not =.
Rangers would have to cough up more.

What about both NY 2nds, their own and the Devs, 39OA + 48OA, respectively?

Skjei + 9OA + 39OA + 48OA
for
3OA + Montreal 2019 1st unprotected

Rangers advance, get a nugget for tomorrow, and can keep Howden

Canadiens get build piece LD, still select w/in top 10, and 2 more 2nds, surely they can use w/4 they already have, and help to move into late 1st round once or twice is an option.

Everybody gets enough of what they want.
win win!
Garbage proposal.Your not getting the Habs 2019 1st let alone an unprotected 1st.Habs will keep their pick.
 

bernmeister

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Jun 11, 2010
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Good proposal on the Flames side. Fox is a stud, but there is uncertainty about him signing. Zuccarello has the value I'd be looking for in a Fox trade, but he is more of a playmaker. If I'm Treliving I'm looking for a shooter. The Flames have plenty of guys who can create chances but only 2 good shooters.

Thanks!
Zuc is not an elite sniper, but he does have an effective shot, and both due to it and his moves, he is useful on shoot outs.

Not sure a guy who is a better pure shooter but a lesser overall player is satisfactory to Flames.

A stud sniper who can do it wall will be a huge amount more, assuming he is even made available.

So, given delayed and conditional reimbursement only if Fox walks, and instant help w/Zuc and dibs on extending, I assume your vote would be yes.
 

bernmeister

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Maybe a bit above average, but not much. Picks are definitely fetishized here in return for established star players, but Skjei isn't that. I'd much rather bet on Hughes becoming a #1 defenseman than Skjei. Adding a good but not great prospect like Howden isn't going to tip the scale for me.

A. You are grossly undervaluing Skjei. The 39 pts his rookie campaign shows potential to put up adequate points in right system -- we all know NY was a mess last year and thank God AV is gone. The tools are there.

B. More importantly, he has the ability to put it all together and play great defense. Clearly and indisputably, he is the younger version of McDonagh before all the injuries, caused in part, I don't doubt from the Torts block shots too much system, compounded by AV.

He has the wheels, he is a great skater, forwards and backwards. Not Kreider or Larkin or that elite a level, but the eyes don't lie.

------------

We have moved on from the OP, although it remains viable for discussion here.

Skjei and 9OA are on the table, Howden is off.

3OA is the core coming back, but Montreal MUST add. Skjei is worth more than falling back 6 spots.

I assert
3OA worth more than Skjei [best case, is a deal for 5OA in a vacuum]
and
immediate 9OA is guesstimated worth more than delayed 2019 Montreal 1st

the above are not =, so NY adds something, which I suggested be both their 2nds this year.
 

Scintillating10

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Jun 15, 2012
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In another thread a Habs fan proposed 3OA for Skjei + 9OA, which was instantly rejected for too much demanded.
Previously, there had been some consensus on 90A + Howden for 3OA + a second, which IMO should be the Hawks at 38OA.
Canadiens need a foundation piece for LD; Skjei is 90% of pre-injury McDonagh rfa for long term deal covering his prime. Howden at 2C during 2019 is another immediate help added.
Rangers not giving away Skjei, but they have 4LDs not immediately an option who they want to promote as soon as they become ready and, until moved, Staal and Smith. Keeping 9OA = flexibility; add 3OA for possible impact asset down the road and slightly upgrade 2 2nds in this deal = win win.

Skjei rfa + Howden elc + 39OA [Rangers 2nd] + 48OA [Devils 2nd]
for
Mon. 1st 3OA + Mon. 2nd [35OA] + Hawks 2nd [38OA]

Skjei a very, very strong skater LD who actually plays d, barely entering his prime at 24, helps get Montreal defense back on track and anchors it for 6 or so years. Howden, a late 1st, projects as a 2C and more plausibly may be ready as early as late this season or the following but a surprise out of camp on a team w/lack of pivot depth is not inconceivable. Instant adds, acceptable price to flip two 2nds. NY gambles w/higher pick.
___________________

Zucarello 4.5 expiring to Calgary for rights to RD Fox, with conditional add on applicable 2021 covering small chance if he walks.

The value of Zuc is a 2018 1st around 15-22, approx.; Panthers not biting with FL 2018 1st [15OA]. You can gamble due to injury another team will pay more at the deadline, but acquiring club gets more use out of rental at start of season than after its start. Flames get good productive guy, 1 full yr rental w/inside track to extend. Fox has high upside, but said he would definitely go back to Harvard and is a legit risk to go college UFA, esp since CAL has stacked RD side. For Flames, worst is they get likely shot in the arm w/Zuc one year only, and a couple of years later, have to pony up a pick if Fox walks, but that is a greater risk with them than with a club like Rangers who need RD. For NYR the gain is RD sooner than later even if not immediately, although they too have some risk Fox walks and they would have to wait for conditional compensation.

Thoughts?
Value wise is there...but too hard to give up the thunder of making 3rd overall.
 

LetsGoFlames

Drop the puck!
Dec 18, 2011
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I'd vote no on the Fox for Zucc deal. We have to add compensation if Fox walks but we get no compensation if Zucc walks. And I can't imagine we'd want to pick him up just to trade him at the trade dealine. I guess we'd have until then to try to work out an extension and in theory could trade him if it becomes clear there's no extension to be had, but that also means he'd be subtracted from our team heading into the playoffs, if we're in such a spot. I'd rather pursue other options and would very much prefer a right shot RW. It's a no in my opinion, though the value seems good, for what it's worth.
 

bernmeister

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Jun 11, 2010
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Value wise is there...but too hard to give up the thunder of making 3rd overall.
thanks for acknowledgment
just fyi, the OP has responded to feedback, and earlier versions with Howden or without 9OA are out, and Skjei + 9OA by NY as well as 3OA by Habs are set.
Your no vote is cast, since the issue for you is keeping 3OA regardless of value.
But as many Habs would take a solid piece if they still had top 10 selection and Ranger fans wanna move up, while all comments are welcome, the floor is particularly looking for what MON add, and if necessary, in response what does NY add, with the core of the deal requiring add(s) being
3OA +
for
Skjei + 9OA [possible + based on what Canadiens + is]
 

bernmeister

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I'd vote no on the Fox for Zucc deal. We have to add compensation if Fox walks but we get no compensation if Zucc walks. And I can't imagine we'd want to pick him up just to trade him at the trade dealine. I guess we'd have until then to try to work out an extension and in theory could trade him if it becomes clear there's no extension to be had, but that also means he'd be subtracted from our team heading into the playoffs, if we're in such a spot. I'd rather pursue other options and would very much prefer a right shot RW. It's a no in my opinion, though the value seems good, for what it's worth.

Thank you for the detailed, well articulated no vote.
I get how esp w/def we wanna try and stay L-R at sides.
That said, Zuc has experience at RW, and plays either based on who linemates are. Conceded, a righty Zuc is an even better, more ideal match, but lefty Zuc is an acceptable fallback position [in the sense that you could do a lot worse].

However, the other aspect you brought up is a good point.
I can only say that Zuc as a UFA vet would obviously control his future, but at least you would get the year out of him and you would have inside dibs to extend him on a # you both like. {I agree that should be the strategy, not trading him in mid season, although, depending on what the return is as a rental if a team is desperate enough, it might be a profitable fallback of something later and actual Zuc for half a year.}

Obviously, I go there b'c I expect Rangers to sign Fox, but there are no guarantees. Kid has all the cards, can go to school, wait, redraft, possibly higher. Presumably same initial elc $, but still...

I wouldn't say signing Fox is harder than extending Zuc.

I am saying even tho Rangers on paper, w/need for RD, are an immediate fit which CAL is not, there are no guarantees either way.

We have to hope Kreider tells him, start your career early if you cut it and do college/grad/post grad further studies in the off season. Hire a tutor or two to help you here in NY during personal time, you can afford it, and NY is closer to Boston for school appearances during off season.

Thanks for the post.
 
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Scintillating10

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Jun 15, 2012
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thanks for acknowledgment
just fyi, the OP has responded to feedback, and earlier versions with Howden or without 9OA are out, and Skjei + 9OA by NY as well as 3OA by Habs are set.
Your no vote is cast, since the issue for you is keeping 3OA regardless of value.
But as many Habs would take a solid piece if they still had top 10 selection and Ranger fans wanna move up, while all comments are welcome, the floor is particularly looking for what MON add, and if necessary, in response what does NY add, with the core of the deal requiring add(s) being
3OA +
for
Skjei + 9OA [possible + based on what Canadiens + is]
Hard to pass on a core player projected to be a Hossa type.
 

Omar

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Oct 10, 2017
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Montreal needs to start drafting high end talent. Enough with the dilution.
 

bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
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Montreal needs to start drafting high end talent. Enough with the dilution.
Another no, prefers the higher pick. Thanks for voting.

It is clear there has to be a high enough pick involved, which is why 9OA has been finalized in play.
Remains to be seen if opinion prefers 2 assets in top 10, including one known and immediately available, or 1 pick only with higher boom potential.
 

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