Proposal: Nyquist to Nashville

kliq

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Dec 17, 2017
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Boy has this thread ever been de-railed.

Yup lol. Like I said before, why people are still complaining about Jarnkrok who is a decent 3rd liner 4 years after the trade, in a "Nyquist to Nashville" thread is baffling to me. People need to let this go. Bad trade in hindsight, but ultimately changed nothing in our teams trajectory. Lets move on.
 

Winger98

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Myers has never been a #1 defenseman in Winnipeg. If he was a true #1 defenseman in Buffalo he wouldn't have been traded in the first place (certainly not on his generous contract).

Norris Trophy Voting:

Mike Green
07-08: 7th
08-09: 2nd
09-10: 2nd

Tyler Myers
09-10: 15th
10-11: 16th

So you're telling me a guy who's been a #1 defenseman "for years" has never finished as high as 15th for Norris voting?

Justin Schultz is supposed to be better than Myers, too? And is Green a better D than Ryan Suter who has only finished as high as 4th? It looks like Dustin Byfuglien has finished only as high as 7th, once. It's a great thing we have Norris trophy voting to sort these things out.

Yeah, Myers has been a #1 for years, and he's better than Mike Green is. He can hold down more minutes, play harder minutes, in more situations, and doesn't need to be sheltered.
 

Henkka

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Yeah, Myers has been a #1 for years, and he's better than Mike Green is. He can hold down more minutes, play harder minutes, in more situations, and doesn't need to be sheltered.

Myers is probably 3rd defenceman at Winnipeg. And has been that for a while.

This #1 talk is just a lie, and you know it.

Guy could be defensively better than Green yeah, but that's it.
 

Winger98

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Myers is probably 3rd defenceman at Winnipeg. And has been that for a while.

This #1 talk is just a lie, and you know it.

Guy could be defensively better than Green yeah, but that's it.

Who was #1 in Dallas when they had Zubov and Hatcher? In Anaheim with Pronger and Niedermeyer? In NJ with Stevens and Neidermeyer? Was Vladdy or Lidstrom not a #1 quality D just because the other was there?

If we're going to penalize players for just having a "better" then which of Z or D wasn't a #1 quality center? Which of Crosby or Malkin?

Myers is a #1 D. He's in a position, much like where Kronwall was with us or Foote/Blake was in Colorado, or any number of players have been when they've been on good teams where they don't have to play to the extreme of their position, but that doesn't make him a lesser quality D.

Or is being Norris/HoF caliber now the threshold for being a #1? Does that mean Teppo Numminen wasn't a #1 D? Or Keny Jonsson? Because they were #1s in my book.

edit: to build off this quick and not just inflate my post count, the real question I'm going around is what is a #1D for people? Myers is a 1D to me. Trouba probably will be. J-Bo could be a 1D. Same with Seabrook. Without looking at a list, I'm not sure any of these guys will be or ever have been top5 for a Norris or are the "#1" D on their own teams.

Green eats 20 minutes a night here, but he's questionable (at best?) defensively and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the PK. He's just not a #1, regardless of how many Norris votes he got ten years ago. Guys who can come in and handle those minutes, handle those situations, that's a #1 to me. That's Tyler Myers and, in reality, a lot of other guys. Just not Mike Green.
 
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lomekian

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1) anyone thinking Myers is a #1 is in cloud cuckoo land. He's a #3 who can do a decent job on a top pair from time to time if with a smarter partner. Would our D be better with him on it? Yes. Was he worthy the price asked of us? No.

2) quite apart from the historical element rendering it pointless, the Jarnkrok trade didn't hurt us at all. Now he's ES outperforming Nielsen, but wasn't when we signed Nielsen. Perhaps trading him cost us an extra $2m in cap space, but he forced a trade anyway. And despite dropping off a cliff, Legwand's immediate impact got us into the playoffs. Would have been a better trade had Babs not pushed for and then rejected the player.

As moves go there are plenty more far worse.

3) Nike to Nashville. Not sure they would part with anyone we'd want. Agree that Fabbro or multiple picks would have to come into it
 

Redder Winger

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May 4, 2017
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1) anyone thinking Myers is a #1 is in cloud ****oo land. He's a #3 who can do a decent job on a top pair from time to time if with a smarter partner. Would our D be better with him on it? Yes. Was he worthy the price asked of us? No.

2) quite apart from the historical element rendering it pointless, the Jarnkrok trade didn't hurt us at all. Now he's ES outperforming Nielsen, but wasn't when we signed Nielsen. Perhaps trading him cost us an extra $2m in cap space, but he forced a trade anyway. And despite dropping off a cliff, Legwand's immediate impact got us into the playoffs. Would have been a better trade had Babs not pushed for and then rejected the player.

As moves go there are plenty more far worse.

3) Nike to Nashville. Not sure they would part with anyone we'd want. Agree that Fabbro or multiple picks would have to come into it

Jarnkrok didn't force the trade. That's fuction.
Legwand was done like dinner.

If Jarnkrok wasn't traded, we almost surely wouldn't have signed Frans Nielsen
He went from 40 points in 62 games at the time of the trade to a bit player in Ottawa the next year, and even smaller bit player in Buffalo the next year - his last in the NHL
 

lomekian

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Jarnkrok didn't force the trade. That's fuction.
Legwand was done like dinner.

If Jarnkrok wasn't traded, we almost surely wouldn't have signed Frans Nielsen
He went from 40 points in 62 games at the time of the trade to a bit player in Ottawa the next year, and even smaller bit player in Buffalo the next year - his last in the NHL
That is sort of the point. Legwand was a career 0.65 ish PPG player enjoying statistically one of his best seasons. I doubt anyone would guess he'd go from scoring st the same rate in Detroit to a 4th line scrub overnight or a bottom line plug in months. Sure it's a risk trading for older players, but not usually ones outperforming their career average. Either way, he helped us make the playoffs, so the primary objective worked. (And yes I know many don't agree with the objective, but that is a separate point).

At the time we traded for him Legwand looked a decent to good 2md line center, coming to play for his hometown club and made it clear he was up for re-signing. He played to that level alongside Framzen & Nike and then woke up one morning four weeks later in babs doghouse on the 4th line and staring down the barrel of the end of his career. Astonishing drop off.

All that said, the idea of Jarnkrock stopping us signing Nielsen is a fantasy. When we signed Nielsen Jarnkrock had just completed a bad season in Nashville and we wanted Nielsen to be the 2nd line centre he was behind Tavares.

Our roster would be no better with Jarnkrok, just a bit cheaper.
 

Mister Ed

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Dec 21, 2008
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If Nyquist is traded, I think the trade will look something like the Henrique trade. Similar age, similar contract and similar production. Hopefully a Vatanen-type player will make it's way to Detroit.
 

Dotter

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So, you're saying Nestrasil and Jarnkrok were viewed as the same level of prospect? I think Nestrasil was always seen as a significantly lower prospect than Jarnkrok, and conflating the two is just wrong.

I was actually higher on Nestrasil than Jarnkrok at the time. I never did (and still don't) like Jarnkrok's size. He never filled out and is a tweener at best. Nestrasil I guess is a bust now, but I thought he looked better on the bottom 6 in the sense he was "harder to play against" than Jarnkrok currently is today.

I agree with Claypool, both were nothing more than B-level prospects. Nestrasil is bust whereas Jarnkrok is still a tweener on a good contract playing for a legit top contender. Jarnkrok would never help this team more than the bottom 6 we currently have. And DRWs currently have potentially better center prospects than Jarnkrok was ever projected on his best day.

To me losing Jarnkork is less of an impact than losing Tomas Kopecky. At least Red Wings got something in return for Jarnkrok.
 

Dotter

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one morning four weeks later in babs doghouse on the 4th line and staring down the barrel of the end of his career. Astonishing drop off.

What's crazy is fans in Toronto are already getting tired of Babcock's mind boggling methods. There's a thread on the main board about it.
 

kliq

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What's crazy is fans in Toronto are already getting tired of Babcock's mind boggling methods. There's a thread on the main board about it.

I was reading similar things about Chicago/Quenneville. What this shows me, is it doesnt matter who the coach is, or what team it is, some fans will always convince themselves that they know better.
 
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Winger98

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I was actually higher on Nestrasil than Jarnkrok at the time. I never did (and still don't) like Jarnkrok's size. He never filled out and is a tweener at best. Nestrasil I guess is a bust now, but I thought he looked better on the bottom 6 in the sense he was "harder to play against" than Jarnkrok currently is today.

I agree with Claypool, both were nothing more than B-level prospects. Nestrasil is bust whereas Jarnkrok is still a tweener on a good contract playing for a legit top contender. Jarnkrok would never help this team more than the bottom 6 we currently have. And DRWs currently have potentially better center prospects than Jarnkrok was ever projected on his best day.

To me losing Jarnkork is less of an impact than losing Tomas Kopecky. At least Red Wings got something in return for Jarnkrok.

I just never got the impression that Jarnkrok and Nestrasil were viewed on the same level. I remember Jarnkrok being a consistent top5 prospect for us, while Nestrasil had to work his way up that list. That's not a knock on Nestrasil, and they really both ended up in the same place as one was reaching his ceiling and I think Jarnkrok has pretty much met his floor as an NHLer, but Jarnkrok's ceiling was just higher.

I liked Nestrasil a lot, too, and had hoped he'd find his place in Carolina. Injuries just killed him, though. I don't think that makes him a bust, though. A bust is a guy who has wasted his opportunities and ability. I think Nestrasil worked his butt off. So much of being injured like that just seems to be lousy luck. It's why I don't give Holland much flak for Weiss. Injuries just happen.
 

Oddbob

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Why so much worry about losing Jarnkrok? If he was here, are we magically better? Is he helping us win many more games, are we tanking better? Do we trade him for something fantastic? The Internet thing of crying over trading mid to lower picks away is so overblown. Most 3rd rounders and lower never become anything, except the odd time a team picks a gem and gets extremely lucky. If you are trying to win and all you have to give up to potentially get better is a 3rd rounder than you do it. All this bellyaching by Wings fans, about trades we shouldn't have made 4 and 5 years ago is ridiculous and the guys that we lost pretty much all are nothing players and none are game breakers. Pulkkinen, Jurco, Jarnkrok, Janmark, Backman and a few others I am forgetting, are nothing to get in a tizzy about.
 

jkutswings

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I was extremely upset with the trade at the time. Not because I thought the assets going to Nashville would ever amount to phenomenal players, but because a team that I was convinced had zero chance at a championship was still buying at the deadline.

It could've been a 6th round pick, and I still would've disagreed with it, because that team already needed to be a seller, not a buyer. Standing pat would've been more tolerable, but even had Legwand played extremely well here, that team still wasn't winning anywhere near 16 playoff games - as evidenced by Boston destroying them in the first round - so it was a pointless step in the wrong direction.

Nobody is a contender every year, let alone wins it all. But once you no longer have the horses to even make the final four, and your best players are aging out, and you don't have anything on the immediate horizon to mitigate that descent... Accept that the window has closed, and slowly shift to the future.

Now it seems they've finally reached that point of acceptance, so hopefully they can still get 2-3 players sold this month, and draft well this summer, to start turning things around, and begin the climb back up.
 
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RedWingzz

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If Nyquist is traded, I think the trade will look something like the Henrique trade. Similar age, similar contract and similar production. Hopefully a Vatanen-type player will make it's way to Detroit.

What about Nyquist for Ryan Ellis straight up? I don't think Nashville even considers this, they like Ellis, but from a Wings perspective I'd do this.
 

Mister Ed

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What about Nyquist for Ryan Ellis straight up? I don't think Nashville even considers this, they like Ellis, but from a Wings perspective I'd do this.
From a Wings' perspective, it makes total sense. If Green is traded at the deadline, Ellis would give the team another RH PP specialist. He's signed to a great deal (2.5M AAV for another year) and he's only 27.

From a Nashville perspective, he's part of a big-4 (Josi, Subban, him and Ekholm) that is pretty good. Maybe a deal for Green + Nyquist for Ellis + would be a great basis, Green can fill in the void left by Ellis and Nyquist gives them a boost in scoring.
 
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HisNoodliness

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What about Nyquist for Ryan Ellis straight up? I don't think Nashville even considers this, they like Ellis, but from a Wings perspective I'd do this.
Ellis is much more valuable than Nyquist, but honestly we should be targeting players younger than him. We're just going to be trying to trade Ellis after his contract when he needs a raise. Plus he's super cheap this year and next so Nashville will want to keep him. We should be looking for futures, not win-now pieces.
 

RedWingzz

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Ellis is much more valuable than Nyquist, but honestly we should be targeting players younger than him. We're just going to be trying to trade Ellis after his contract when he needs a raise. Plus he's super cheap this year and next so Nashville will want to keep him. We should be looking for futures, not win-now pieces.

I get what you are saying, but he is only 27. Even if we are ready to compete in 4 years, he'd only be 31. Realistically, Nashville won't want to disrupt their top 4, so this won't happen. They aren't gonna move Fabbro, and I'm not interested in Farrance, so I don't think there is a deal to be made, unless they offer their 1st and a B-list prospect.
 

Frk It

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From a Nashville perspective, he's part of a big-4 (Josi, Subban, him and Ekholm) that is pretty good. Maybe a deal for Green + Nyquist for Ellis + would be a great basis, Green can fill in the void left by Ellis and Nyquist gives them a boost in scoring.

I think Green is a better overall offensive player, but man Ellis scores more goals than I realized. He is top 10 in goals/game played over the last 3 years among defenseman. So I don't even know it would enough of a boost to entice them.
 

Rzombo4 prez

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I get what you are saying, but he is only 27. Even if we are ready to compete in 4 years, he'd only be 31. Realistically, Nashville won't want to disrupt their top 4, so this won't happen. They aren't gonna move Fabbro, and I'm not interested in Farrance, so I don't think there is a deal to be made, unless they offer their 1st and a B-list prospect.

I like Ellis, but we need to aim younger. Thirty-one is not particularly young in today's game. The bigger issue, however, is that he will hit unrestricted free agency before we are truly competitive again. There is little I want from Nashville's system apart from Fabbro or their first-round pick.

If the Wings are hell bent on moving Gus (which I doubt) I am not convinced that there will be a ton of better forwards available at the deadline apart from Kane. Time will tell though.
 

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