Proposal: NYI/Calgary/Washington
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Skrudland2Lomakin
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- Jan 1, 2011
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By this metric Price, Bobrovosky, and Dubnyk must be trash.
Why is playoff experience the qualifier we're using instead off, I don't know, straight statistics?
Greiss is a career backup on several teams, but because he has officially one playoff series win under his belt he now has the trump card? He's 31 and it took him to this point in his career to be a teams starter and that is largely in part to the fact that his competition was Jaroslav Halak.
Grubauer is 25 and has only ever served as an NHL backup to the reigning Vezina trophy winner. Statistically he is better, he is younger, his ceiling is higher, and his contract is cheaper. You're kidding yourself if you think the value of these guys is equivalent.
Continue citing the fact that Grubauer is a back up on a very good team as reasoning for why he's not as valuable, I'll be over here looking at how Greiss was unable to start on a variety of slightly above average teams for the majority of his career.
Not sure why greiss past is relevant here. Don't think he's arguing value but greiss is easily the better goalie currently
Skrudland2Lomakin
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You're arguing he's better currently because he's as starter, I'm showing you he's only a starter because he has no competition not because of individual merit and his past supports this. The roll of "starter" is irrelevant in "who is better", lots of terrible goalies have started in this league while other teams had significantly better ones on the bench. Every metric supports that Grubauer is better beyond the made up "he won a playoff series" and "he's a starter".
Halak isn't no competition. Not the strongest but it's absolutely competition. Grubauer starts against bad teams and I feel bad for you if you think his stats as a backup are relevant. Look at bernier. Remember chad Johnsons season with the bruins? Greiss is better until grubauer proves otherwise which we will hopefully find out this year. Solid numbers as a backup on a stacked team do not mean anything. Then you consider the variables of the workload and mentality of starting etc. if grubauer was such a capable starter someone would've traded for him by now like cam talbot
Isles fans hatred of anything Washington is really a spectacle to behold. Really impressive, to be honest.
CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
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Uhhh what...? Don't worry there's no envy/hatred there. Take a deep breath and realize you haven't made it further with ovi than we did in 2016 lmao. I don't hate the caps, I'd feel bad for them if my own team didn't have its own **** show
CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
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We heard it here first everyone. Remember the day we were all enlightened by this gem.
Backup goalie stats are hereforth "irrelevant" in all aspects, but specifically as they pertain to a goalie's ability to be a future starter.
Starting to feel like you brought a knife to a gunfight Bub.
In order for Grubauer to have supplanted Holtby he would almost had to have been the best goalie in the entire league, since Holtby has been a Vezina finalist each of the past two seasons. Using the fact that he hasn't been a starter as a way to gauge his play is beyond ridiculous.
More proven? No arguing that. Better? Almost impossible to tell given the situation.
Stats favor Grubauer, but the fact that they come as a backup raises the question as to whether he could do the same as a starter.
An interesting question is if Grubauer would have been the starter had he been on the Isles last year.
More proven? No arguing that. Better? Almost impossible to tell given the situation.
Stats favor Grubauer, but the fact that they come as a backup raises the question as to whether he could do the same as a starter.
An interesting question is if Grubauer would have been the starter had he been on the Isles last year.
THall4
Registered User
Martin Jones cost a 1st + .....1st + Kuraly is what San Jose gave up for Jones.
CodeE
step on snek
You guys are literally arguing that your 23-game backup goaltender is superior to our starting goaltender because you say so.
Please provide a specific example of this, because I haven't seen it. The argument most similar to this is, "Our starting goaltender is better than your backup because he is a starting goaltender" as if GP was the most important stat when evaluating a player's ability.
Oilers Propagandist
Relax junior, it’s just a post.
CodeE
step on snek
One is a starting goalie that has lead their team to the 2nd round of the playoffs.
The other spends 75% of the season sitting on the bench making sure not to get in Ovechkin's way. But you want specific examples, right? Some sort of argument?
Here are the backup goalies for the last seven winners of the President's Trophy and their stats on the year:
16-17 - Grabauer (WSH) 2.04 GAA / .926 SV%
15-16 - Grabauer (WSH) 2.32 GAA / .918 SV%
14-15 - Cam Talbot (NYR) 2.21 GAA / .926 SV%
13-14 - Chad Johnson (BOS) 2.10 GAA / .925 SV%
12-13 - Ray Emery (CHI) 1.94 GAA / .922 SV%
11-12 - Corey Schneider (VAN) 1.96 GAA / .937 SV%
10-11 - Corey Schenider (VAN) 2.23 GAA / .929 SV%
What low GAAs and high save percentages they have! Surely this can only mean Chad Johnson is an elite NHL goaltender and not that backup goaltenders on incredibly strong teams always have inflated stats because - wait for it - they play on incredibly strong teams. Grabauer in 15-16 actually has the worst numbers of the bunch.
Yet even then, guys like Schneider actively challenge their starters with their play and guys like Talbot take advantage of injuries to prove they can handle an everyday NHL workload, not a 25% of the season workload. This makes other teams who need goaltending covet them, however Grabauer has done neither of those things. All he's done is put up Chad Johnson numbers because hockey coaching 101 tells you to play Holtby when you're facing the Penguins and play Grabauer when you're facing the Devils to give yourself the best shot to win both games.
Okay, your turn.
Skrudland2Lomakin
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Uses a list with Cam Talbot and Corey Schneider to make point that backup goalies on President Trophy teams aren't that good
Bold strategy Cotton
Skrudland2Lomakin
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I mean I guess he's sort of competition when both goalies are hovering in-between 2.70-2.80 GAA. So yes, on many teams Halak is not competition, on the Islanders he is.
CodeE
step on snek
Nothing like the strategy of deliberately missing the point. Here, I'll make it big and red so it's easier to read for you, maybe that'll make it easier to address my actual argument:
BACKUP GOALIES ON PRESIDENTS TROPHY TEAMS HAVE INFLATED NUMBERS NO MATTER IF THEY'RE COREY SCHENIDER OR CHAD JOHNSON
So you're saying that there is the potential for a backup to be an All-Star?
/Giant Red Font How can you be sure which end of the spectrum Grubauer will be on if he hasn't had a chance to show it? /Giant Red Font
Before you bring up what you think is relevant from your other post, let me remind you that Grubauer would have had to have been the best goalie in the league to unseat Holtby the last two years and Holtby has almost never been hurt.
CodeE
step on snek
I provide a legitimate argument and use statistics to back up my point.
You say "how do you know Grabauer isn't the next Corey Schneider?"
And then "Grabauer plays behind Holtby!"
None of what I said is wrong or mutually exclusive. I have no idea how you might think otherwise. Playing behind a two-time Vezina finalist that doesn't get hurt doesn't exclude the possibility that Grubauer is better than Thomas Greiss.I provide a legitimate argument and use statistics to back up my point.
You say "how do you know Grabauer isn't the next Corey Schneider?"
And then "Grabauer plays behind Holtby!"
You did no such thing. You showed a range of possibilities. Based on that range of possibilities, can you somehow make a definitive statement that Grubauer is a lesser goalie than Greiss?
I really don't understand what's there to argue about. Seems to me like it's a whole lot of pissing about the other team without trying to make sense.
Yes, Greiss is currently the "better" goalie. He has been a starter, something Grubauer has yet to show. As such, the Islanders wouldn't trade Greiss for Grubauer. There is no reason for them to trade a goalie who has shown that he can perform well for them, while only getting one who could perhaps be a starter in return. Especially when they just re-signed Greiss.
And no, suggesting that Grubauer couldn't be as good or better than Greiss because he couldn't get past Holtby is not a valid stance either. A backup doesn't get past a starter who is signed longterm and has finished as a Vezina finalist two seasons in a row, it simply does not happen.
Grubauer's performances as a backup have been great. He's pretty much the prime candidate for a team that is looking for a future starter to take a chance on. No one else combines these kind of performances while still being relatively young.
Not sure why anyone would feel the need to bad-mouth either of them.
Yes, Greiss is currently the "better" goalie. He has been a starter, something Grubauer has yet to show. As such, the Islanders wouldn't trade Greiss for Grubauer. There is no reason for them to trade a goalie who has shown that he can perform well for them, while only getting one who could perhaps be a starter in return. Especially when they just re-signed Greiss.
And no, suggesting that Grubauer couldn't be as good or better than Greiss because he couldn't get past Holtby is not a valid stance either. A backup doesn't get past a starter who is signed longterm and has finished as a Vezina finalist two seasons in a row, it simply does not happen.
Grubauer's performances as a backup have been great. He's pretty much the prime candidate for a team that is looking for a future starter to take a chance on. No one else combines these kind of performances while still being relatively young.
Not sure why anyone would feel the need to bad-mouth either of them.
dying at this comment.
I don't like the trade, but that's just because it leaves the isles in a real hole if/when Halak gets hurt. Grubauer is good and has nice numbers, but its sample size relevant. It basically takes the isles back to where they were with Greiss. Nobody was sure if he could handle being a starter. I would rather stick with Greiss while Soderstrom and Sorokin both develop and in 2 years, hopefully take the reigns. Its not an "I hate the caps" thing. Its just an "I don't think taking an unknown quantity (Grubauer playing massive minutes) makes sense at this point" thing.
And you really can't discount playing on a regular season powerhouse like the Caps. He would be much busier on the island. But the list wasn't the best way to illustrate it.
CodeE
step on snek
You'd make a great defense lawyer. Prosecutor presents evidence, testimony, witness accounts, paints a complete picture of the crime and why the defendant deserves to be in prison.
Then you get up and say "my client might be innocent though" and sit down.
The issue is calling Greiss "better". It is essentially impossible to know at this time who would be a better starter. Through his very specific set of circumstances, Grubauer has not be given an opportunity to show if he is better or worse as a starter than Greiss. I don't think I've seen a single Caps fan arguing that Grubauer is absolutely a better goalie. Just that there is a very legitimate possibility that he is, based on his play as a backup and recent comps. That isn't to say that he is a lock to be better. There is also a reasonable chance that he can't handle a full workload.
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