Non-draft pursuit of young defenseman

masta8

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Apr 26, 2018
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What indications do you have this step is coming? His ice time went up almost two minutes with no payoff last year. He doesn't work hard on a shift to shift basis and not only that he doesn't seem to get why things are happening or not happening for him when interviewed. He doesn't seem like a player approaching a corner or epiphany. I hope he does, AA has a lot of talent, but I am not sure it is ever going to sink in for him that he doesn't have enough to only get by on that and be a big time NHL player.
I agree with not working hard from a shift to shift basis but saying he doesn't seem like a player approaching a corner is debatable. He just came off a year where he scored 16 goals with the 8th highest minutes per game for forwards and 9th best shooting percentage. With no holdouts to start the season and even a small increase in minutes and shooting percentage he is capable of 25 goals next season. For a team that had the 4th fewest goals in the NHL I would certainly be cautious of trading AA unless it brings us back a defenseman that is a sure thing but I still would give him one more season.
 

Flowah

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Nov 30, 2009
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I agree with not working hard from a shift to shift basis but saying he doesn't seem like a player approaching a corner is debatable. He just came off a year where he scored 16 goals with the 8th highest minutes per game for forwards and 9th best shooting percentage. With no holdouts to start the season and even a small increase in minutes and shooting percentage he is capable of 25 goals next season. For a team that had the 4th fewest goals in the NHL I would certainly be cautious of trading AA unless it brings us back a defenseman that is a sure thing but I still would give him one more season.
Sign him to a 2-3 year contract. Give him 1 more year to play. Then if he is still an inconsistent work ethic guy, trade him for whatever d-man or picks/prospects.

I love his skills. I'm getting fed up with his inconsistency. Nothing more infuriating than watching some guy with maybe the fastest wheels in the league, good hands, good size, being a 3rd liner because of his effort level.
 

PullHard

Jul 18, 2007
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Based on the thread on TR&FA board

Detroit offers:
6th overall
E. Svechnikov

Carolina offers:
Noah Hanifin
(something else I'm not able to determine without your guys help)

The premise for this is - Carolina is quite rich on the blueline. They have some good Fs but need to add skill throughout and to get deeper. Plus Williams is aging, etc.

Carolina adds both Svechnikov brothers (I know it is only a week or so after the draft lottery results and we're already tired of hearing about this) and can also grab Tkachuk/ Wahlstrom @ 6.

Detroit gets a D who is a few years along in his development, bypassing the worst of the growing pain years but is still really young and immediately helps the team start getting better.

I don't know what Carolina adds
 

njx9

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Feb 1, 2016
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Is he going to be a 1D? If the answer is anything other than a resounding yes, I don't see that this is beneficial. Sure, we could draft a bust, but we've got nothing but time to properly develop a guy.

I find it vastly funny that this is still based around the "OMG BROTHERS" silliness, though.
 

Oddbob

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Jan 21, 2016
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Based on the thread on TR&FA board

Detroit offers:
6th overall
E. Svechnikov

Carolina offers:
Noah Hanifin
(something else I'm not able to determine without your guys help)

BARF! Why would we be adding to a 6th Overall? Hanifin isn't elite yet or ever, or anything!
 

PullHard

Jul 18, 2007
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BARF! Why would we be adding to a 6th Overall? Hanifin isn't elite yet or ever, or anything!

Just spitballing ideas, really. I don't love Hanifin either but I think he might be the most reliable guy longterm out of a group of him + Bouchard/ Dobson/ Boqvist/ Hughes to be a first pair guy who can play both special teams and log say ~23+ minutes a night. The other players are still question marks obviously but also have less balanced skill sets at this point.
 
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Sparty

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Oct 2, 2015
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Sign him to a 2-3 year contract. Give him 1 more year to play. Then if he is still an inconsistent work ethic guy, trade him for whatever d-man or picks/prospects.

I love his skills. I'm getting fed up with his inconsistency. Nothing more infuriating than watching some guy with maybe the fastest wheels in the league, good hands, good size, being a 3rd liner because of his effort level.

After what we got in return for Tatar, Brendan Smith and Jurco I think this is the right answer. For some reason these teams keep thinking they can turn these sexy skill guys of ours into their reclamation projects, I'm sure we could do the same at the trade deadline this year with AA if he hasn't turned it around by then.
 

Hen Kolland

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Feb 22, 2018
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Just spitballing ideas, really. I don't love Hanifin either but I think he might be the most reliable guy longterm out of a group of him + Bouchard/ Dobson/ Boqvist/ Hughes to be a first pair guy who can play both special teams and log say ~23+ minutes a night. The other players are still question marks obviously but also have less balanced skill sets at this point.

I'm with you one this. There was another trade out there about Mantha+6th OA for Mete+3rd OA that I wasn't a fan of due to the fact that Mantha is already doing it in the NHL while Zadina (presumably) hasn't done anything. Is Zadina's ceiling higher? I would say he has the edge there, but his floor is still being a complete bust. Same comes into play here; any defenseman we pick at 6 might be a higher ceiling player, but could also be a complete bust. Hanifin is still improving year by year, is 21, and would immediately be the best defenseman on the team. If he were 24-25 I would proceed with caution, but as it currently stands I would make the deal.
 

masta8

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Apr 26, 2018
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Sign him to a 2-3 year contract. Give him 1 more year to play. Then if he is still an inconsistent work ethic guy, trade him for whatever d-man or picks/prospects.

I love his skills. I'm getting fed up with his inconsistency. Nothing more infuriating than watching some guy with maybe the fastest wheels in the league, good hands, good size, being a 3rd liner because of his effort level.
agreed.
 

Mister Ed

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Dec 21, 2008
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Philadelphia would be another place I would look to for some help - Morin, Sanheim, Myers, Hagg.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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Just spitballing ideas, really. I don't love Hanifin either but I think he might be the most reliable guy longterm out of a group of him + Bouchard/ Dobson/ Boqvist/ Hughes to be a first pair guy who can play both special teams and log say ~23+ minutes a night. The other players are still question marks obviously but also have less balanced skill sets at this point.

Not a bad idea, bud. Hanifin is a good young player.

However I really like the defenseman slated to go top 10 this year, and also like the idea of controlling their development and ELC years.
 

Voodoo Glow Skulls

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Not a bad idea, bud. Hanifin is a good young player.

However I really like the defenseman slated to go top 10 this year, and also like the idea of controlling their development and ELC years.

Develop the draft picks. Hanifin isn't getting traded anyway.

If there is anyone on Carolina that I would trade the 6th for, it's Necas.
 
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njx9

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Our best pick in years... in a great draft... with a ton of defensemen who would dramatically upgrade our pool, and would fit in with the next few years of prospects we need to pick and develop... and suddenly everyone wants to trade the pick and one of our only good forwards for... a different forward? Someone else's "unwanted", non-1D defenseman who has less control?

This is so, so dumb. This is trading Carson Wentz for Corey Coleman and Deshone Kizer dumb.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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Our best pick in years... in a great draft... with a ton of defensemen who would dramatically upgrade our pool, and would fit in with the next few years of prospects we need to pick and develop... and suddenly everyone wants to trade the pick and one of our only good forwards for... a different forward? Someone else's "unwanted", non-1D defenseman who has less control?

This is so, so dumb. This is trading Carson Wentz for Corey Coleman and Deshone Kizer dumb.

Someone was just floating an idea out there.

There is no “everyone wants to trade our pick” going on.

Noah Hanifin was the top ranked defenseman in his class and is only 21. I wouldn’t do it either but I wouldn’t call it “dumb”.
 
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Hen Kolland

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Feb 22, 2018
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This is so, so dumb. This is trading Carson Wentz for Corey Coleman and Deshone Kizer dumb.

Let's pump the brakes a bit. It would be more like trading Brock Osweiler and a chance at boom or bust Josh Allen for Marcus Mariota. You can fact check the years, but I think Osweiler was picked the same year as AA and Mariota the same as Hanifin. Mariota/Hanifin highly touted and drafted top 5, Osweiler/AA not as highly touted and drafted outside of the first round. Osweiler had initial success and followed up with being mired with inconsistency and full of question marks. Mariota was given a chance very early on, has shown glimpses of how good he can be and still has time on his side.

It isn't a dumb idea because a lot of people still think Hanifin will develop into a 1b type of defenseman; he's only 21 ffs. If you disagree with that thought, then I totally understand you being against the trade. Because if we're talking about drafting a player at #6 we expect to be a top pairing defenseman, I damn well be getting a player I expect to be exactly that if I'm trading the pick and adding a NHL forward.
 

ricky0034

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Jun 8, 2010
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i'd trade the 6th for Hanifin in a second

both because I really believe in Hanifin and because I don't really trust the Wings to develop defensemen anyways
 

njx9

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Feb 1, 2016
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Someone was just floating an idea out there.

There is no “everyone wants to trade our pick” going on.

Noah Hanifin was the top ranked defenseman in his class and is only 21. I wouldn’t do it either but I wouldn’t call it “dumb”.

There's a ridiculous amount of conversation and agreement around trading 6 in some form or another. But you're right, as the first person to hyperbolize a bit about the trend of conversation, my bad.

Again - is Hanifin a future 1D? If he is, why on earth would Carolina trade him for our pick? If he's not, why on earth would we trade our pick for him? It's absolutely dumb. It's either a dumb basis for discussion, or it's a dumb discussion to have.

It's precisely as dumb, for instance, as talking about trading 6 for Karlsson or to bring back Kyle Quincey. Absent a specific rumor, one isn't happening, and the other is a monumental waste of the pick.

Let's pump the brakes a bit. It would be more like trading Brock Osweiler and a chance at boom or bust Josh Allen for Marcus Mariota. You can fact check the years, but I think Osweiler was picked the same year as AA and Mariota the same as Hanifin. Mariota/Hanifin highly touted and drafted top 5, Osweiler/AA not as highly touted and drafted outside of the first round. Osweiler had initial success and followed up with being mired with inconsistency and full of question marks. Mariota was given a chance very early on, has shown glimpses of how good he can be and still has time on his side.

Josh Allen would be like taking Nick Merkley in the top 5. But that's neither here nor there.

It isn't a dumb idea because a lot of people still think Hanifin will develop into a 1b type of defenseman; he's only 21 ffs. If you disagree with that thought, then I totally understand you being against the trade. Because if we're talking about drafting a player at #6 we expect to be a top pairing defenseman, I damn well be getting a player I expect to be exactly that if I'm trading the pick and adding a NHL forward.

I think trading the pick for a 1B is precisely why it's dumb. I think taking a player you don't think is going to grow into a 1A is also dumb. "Safe" picks, and "safe" use of picks, isn't how this team gets back to championships. And we have no timeframe - there's no hurry to just 'get a guy'. If Dobson/Bouchard/Boqvist/whoever bust, we're not ruined.

because I don't really trust the Wings to develop defensemen anyways

I get this. But if it's true, then the entire development team, including AHL staff, should be canned immediately.
 

TheOtherOne

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Jan 2, 2010
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Sign him to a 2-3 year contract. Give him 1 more year to play. Then if he is still an inconsistent work ethic guy, trade him for whatever d-man or picks/prospects.

I love his skills. I'm getting fed up with his inconsistency. Nothing more infuriating than watching some guy with maybe the fastest wheels in the league, good hands, good size, being a 3rd liner because of his effort level.

AA might be my favorite Wing at the moment. I think he could be awesome and I would really hate to lose him. But I like this idea. Tell him he is on the clock to mature. If we really don't see the progression we want after another year, fine, I'll sadly trade him.

I like to think he will rise to the challenge and establish himself as a long-time great Wing though.

Based on the thread on TR&FA board

Detroit offers:
6th overall
E. Svechnikov

Carolina offers:
Noah Hanifin
(something else I'm not able to determine without your guys help)

The premise for this is - Carolina is quite rich on the blueline. They have some good Fs but need to add skill throughout and to get deeper. Plus Williams is aging, etc.

Carolina adds both Svechnikov brothers (I know it is only a week or so after the draft lottery results and we're already tired of hearing about this) and can also grab Tkachuk/ Wahlstrom @ 6.

Detroit gets a D who is a few years along in his development, bypassing the worst of the growing pain years but is still really young and immediately helps the team start getting better.

I don't know what Carolina adds
I don't really know enough about Hanifin to have an informed opinion, but I like this in principle. I really think that young great #1 D is our most critical need by far right now, and if we can fill that, a lot will fall into place behind it. I would even cautiously overpay some to get it.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,201
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Again - is Hanifin a future 1D? If he is, why on earth would Carolina trade him for our pick? If he's not, why on earth would we trade our pick for him? It's absolutely dumb. It's either a dumb basis for discussion, or it's a dumb discussion to have.

It's an unknown. You want it to be black or white, he will or won't be, but no one knows yet. If we traded for him we would be betting he can become one. Carolina would be betting he can't. Then we would wait to see who is right. That's how those trades work.

It's precisely as dumb, for instance, as talking about trading 6 for Karlsson or to bring back Kyle Quincey. Absent a specific rumor, one isn't happening, and the other is a monumental waste of the pick.

Not even remotely close. But I guess I won't be changing your mind here.
 

PullHard

Jul 18, 2007
28,377
2,452
There's a ridiculous amount of conversation and agreement around trading 6 in some form or another. But you're right, as the first person to hyperbolize a bit about the trend of conversation, my bad.

Again - is Hanifin a future 1D? If he is, why on earth would Carolina trade him for our pick? If he's not, why on earth would we trade our pick for him? It's absolutely dumb. It's either a dumb basis for discussion, or it's a dumb discussion to have.

It's precisely as dumb, for instance, as talking about trading 6 for Karlsson or to bring back Kyle Quincey. Absent a specific rumor, one isn't happening, and the other is a monumental waste of the pick.

Josh Allen would be like taking Nick Merkley in the top 5. But that's neither here nor there.

I think trading the pick for a 1B is precisely why it's dumb. I think taking a player you don't think is going to grow into a 1A is also dumb. "Safe" picks, and "safe" use of picks, isn't how this team gets back to championships. And we have no timeframe - there's no hurry to just 'get a guy'. If Dobson/Bouchard/Boqvist/whoever bust, we're not ruined.


Our best pick in years... in a great draft... with a ton of defensemen who would dramatically upgrade our pool, and would fit in with the next few years of prospects we need to pick and develop... and suddenly everyone wants to trade the pick and one of our only good forwards for... a different forward? Someone else's "unwanted", non-1D defenseman who has less control?

This is so, so dumb. This is trading Carson Wentz for Corey Coleman and Deshone Kizer dumb.

I don't disagree that it is an out there proposal. I saw a Canes fan propose it on Trade board and just wanted to see what you guys thought, basically. I don't necessarily endorse it or think it is the best possible move, just seeing if there is a fit of some sort.

Like others have said, the reasons it does make sense is that it shaves off a few developmental years and Hanifin might be the most balanced/ well rounded of all the defensemen in the conversation when it is all said and done.

Like others have said, we should probably draft a D we like with the 6th overall pick and control his contract and development from day 1. Also, if you think a guy like Boqvist, Bouchard, Dobson, Hughes, etc. has a higher ceiling and will be a better player you absolutely draft that guy rather than trade for Hanifin. I don't have a strong opinion on any of the players in question, I think they are all pretty darn good and have strengths and weaknesses, etc.

I don't know if it is quite as dumb as you're saying but I will agree it seems highly unlikely. As a comparable though, it is reminiscent to Jones for Johansen sort of. The Canes fan suggested so that they would acquire both Svechnikov and Wahlstrom in the draft, giving them a lot more punch in their top 6 for years to come. Something like:

Aho - Staal - TT
Zykov - Necas/Wahlstrom - Svechnikov

Eventually Staal slides down to 3C when Necas and Wahlstrom are done developing and earn their stripes in the NHL. Canes deal from a position of strength to fill a hole.

I'm with you one this. There was another trade out there about Mantha+6th OA for Mete+3rd OA that I wasn't a fan of due to the fact that Mantha is already doing it in the NHL while Zadina (presumably) hasn't done anything. Is Zadina's ceiling higher? I would say he has the edge there, but his floor is still being a complete bust. Same comes into play here; any defenseman we pick at 6 might be a higher ceiling player, but could also be a complete bust. Hanifin is still improving year by year, is 21, and would immediately be the best defenseman on the team. If he were 24-25 I would proceed with caution, but as it currently stands I would make the deal.

I still think Hanifin has some growth and he plays a really safe, strong game from what I've seen. Guys like Hughes, Boqvist, Bouchard all have offensive tools that look really promising but other parts of their game come into question. I consider them all to be pretty valuable prospects so it is hard to say.

Not a bad idea, bud. Hanifin is a good young player.

However I really like the defenseman slated to go top 10 this year, and also like the idea of controlling their development and ELC years.

Controlling the contract talks and having all of the time on our side is key, I agree.

Develop the draft picks. Hanifin isn't getting traded anyway.

If there is anyone on Carolina that I would trade the 6th for, it's Necas.

There's an idea. I think Canes probably cling to him tighter than a D at this point, though. But I like him a lot as well.

It isn't a dumb idea because a lot of people still think Hanifin will develop into a 1b type of defenseman; he's only 21 ffs. If you disagree with that thought, then I totally understand you being against the trade. Because if we're talking about drafting a player at #6 we expect to be a top pairing defenseman, I damn well be getting a player I expect to be exactly that if I'm trading the pick and adding a NHL forward.

Yeah the DRW would have to be enamored with Hanifin to move the pick. I don't see why they'd bother otherwise. I think he still has 1B ceiling.

i'd trade the 6th for Hanifin in a second

both because I really believe in Hanifin and because I don't really trust the Wings to develop defensemen anyways

There is a part of me that has this feeling too. It is why I'm giving thought to and starting a discussion about trading the 6th overall pick away.

I don't really know enough about Hanifin to have an informed opinion, but I like this in principle. I really think that young great #1 D is our most critical need by far right now, and if we can fill that, a lot will fall into place behind it. I would even cautiously overpay some to get it.

I think his style fits more with guys like Hronek and Cholowski coming up. Hanifin plays a simpler game where as a guy like Hronek has more flair and potential risk with his offensive instincts. Having say both Hronek and Hughes/ Boqvist wouldn't be bad but it might be a more balanced and ideal scenario with Hanifin. But this is all hypothetical.
 
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njx9

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Like others have said, the reasons it does make sense is that it shaves off a few developmental years and Hanifin might be the most balanced/ well rounded of all the defensemen in the conversation when it is all said and done.

First, sorry if it seems like I'm shooting the messenger on this. I don't think you (or anyone else) is dumb for talking about it, but I think it would be a really dumb move for the team to actually make.

Second, I think the above is irrelevant. Losing a couple of developmental years only makes sense if you think the team is hopelessly inept at development. In which case, this move ultimately doesn't matter anyway. We don't have any ticking clocks on the roster, and we've already burned any cheap years for guys who might contribute substantially later on. There shouldn't be any rush to address the position.

It's an unknown. You want it to be black or white, he will or won't be, but no one knows yet. If we traded for him we would be betting he can become one. Carolina would be betting he can't. Then we would wait to see who is right. That's how those trades work.

That's fairly obvious. Do we think our D scouts, with their utter lack of measurable, NHL-level success are really suddenly more capable than a team who has so many good defensemen that it can trade one away? I sure don't. And again, if you're thinking he's going to top out as anything less than a stud, 1D in the NHL, it's a dumb move.

Not even remotely close. But I guess I won't be changing your mind here.

Of course it is. If the guys not a stud in waiting, why would we consider it? It goes back to the above. Do you think we know their prospects and players better than they do? Do you think there's an inherent advantage in having lost ELC years and development time within the organization? If the answer is anything other than a resounding yes to both, I have no idea how you even consider the move.
 

Hen Kolland

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Feb 22, 2018
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And again, if you're thinking he's going to top out as anything less than a stud, 1D in the NHL, it's a dumb move.

You know what Hanifin comes with that a draft pick doesn't? A guarantee. An established floor. Maybe he doesn't become a stud 1D, but he'd already be the best defenseman in the organization. There's a chance that you are drafting someone who never plays an NHL game. Like Frk It said, you keep looking at this as an absolute, that whoever we draft is already a future 1D. Everyone is clamoring for the Wings to draft Hughes or Boqvist, and the risk on those two are the highest of probably anyone that is going to be selected top 10. They might be that guy you are projecting, they might bust completely, they might never be better than a bottom pair guy.

There is nothing that supports your justification of it being a dumb move, you just don't like it. Believe it or not, there's a difference between the two.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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That's fairly obvious. Do we think our D scouts, with their utter lack of measurable, NHL-level success are really suddenly more capable than a team who has so many good defensemen that it can trade one away? I sure don't. And again, if you're thinking he's going to top out as anything less than a stud, 1D in the NHL, it's a dumb move.

That's a good point, but if we are ever going to win an actual hockey trade it's just something we are going to have to do.
 
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The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
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Not to poor more fuel on the fire and we already have the strange Svechnikov brother angle here.

But Hanifin and Werenski are Larkin's best friends by almost all accounts, those three were extremely tight with the USMNTDP. We should be so lucky to unite all of them with the Wings, they would never leave and that is a real interesting core. It would have to wait on Werenski for a little while, but I would be Parise to Minnesota bullish it is happening if Hanifin and Larkin are in Detroit. :laugh:
 

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