Speculation: NJD Offseason Part IV

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NJDevs26

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Mar 21, 2007
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If he regresses and becomes a 60 point player. Is that worth $10 at max term?

That's what worries me...and yeah a 35 goal, 60 point forward is still an improvement for us but is it worth that kind of coin in a cap system? If you could promise me a 45 goal 80-85 point player for at least the first few years of the contract then I'd be all on board with signing him. But there's too much evidence of him declining sooner rather than later.
 

SpeakingOfTheDevils

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Jan 22, 2010
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If we're talking Stamkos for face value, I absolutely sign that deal without giving it much thought. He's a young top scorer; the fit couldn't be more perfect.

What bugs me out is the injuries.. all of which have been rather severe. The broken leg, the blood clots... with that context, I'm much more hesitant about that contract.

If by some God given miracle we can sign him for $9M AAV, I'd wet my pants. I fear he pushes for $10M+, and that's just way too much IMO.

Only way I go $10M+ is if it's on a like a 4 year deal.
 

Feed Me A Stray Cat

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Mar 27, 2005
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He also had two bad coaches in between. Jon Cooper does not seem like a bad coach.

Anyway the Crosby and Malkin contracts are great contracts. What's less great is paying $5M to Fleury, the Kunitz and Dupuis contracts, and the fact that the Penguins haven't had young players to replace their pricey veterans. That's the price of success. Your elite players are always worth paying that sort of money to. Your non-elite players aren't, and championship teams rarely recognize the difference.

Regarding Pittsburgh almost missing the playoffs - they had a bad coach. Sullivan came in and changed things around and the team immediately began playing much better.

Now what is less good about Crosby and Malkin is that both guys have trouble staying healthy. Crosby's been healthy the last 3 years, but Malkin hasn't played 80 games in a season since 2009 - he's missed at least 13 games every year since then. Letang has also missed lots of time with injuries. Fleury's been terrible in the playoffs and the Penguins just kept sticking by him.

It's interesting how people always claimed that Pittsburgh's lack of offensive depth and team concept/identity were to their detriment in the playoffs, but it was really Fleury all along. His streak of postseason performances from 2009 to 2013 was beyond abysmal.

Now they're actually getting good goaltending, and look how they're doing.
 

Camille the Eel

Registered User
But they've changed four fifths of the roster and play a different style and have added an amazing line in Kessel and Hagelin. So if you gear to stopping Crosby and Malkin, the Kessel line kills you. Plus they have a healthy Letang. No this is a different club. The fastest and most skilled at forward in the entire NHL and then on top of it you've got Sid and Malkin and Kessel, Letang and all that top end talent.

But I agree they are better off with this kid than with Fleury. Totally agree about that.
 

Emperoreddy

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That's what worries me...and yeah a 35 goal, 60 point forward is still an improvement for us but is it worth that kind of coin in a cap system? If you could promise me a 45 goal 80-85 point player for at least the first few years of the contract then I'd be all on board with signing him. But there's too much evidence of him declining sooner rather than later.

Exactly. It isn't a question of whether we or not we could use a 60 point forward. Of course that is an improvement, but if that is about the average we get from him for the first few years on a massive contract before he further declines into a 50 point player on the back end (which I think might even be a conservative thought). Is that worth $10 million for max term?

I think the answer is obviously no. I don't think there is any way for any team, including us, to sign him to a big deal and feel safe they will get a 70-80 point player for more than one year of the total deal (if even that).

And yes we have the space, but cap space can vanish quickly enough, and it isn't smart to overpay a player by THAT much even if he still brings an improvement.
 

Emperoreddy

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It's interesting how people always claimed that Pittsburgh's lack of offensive depth and team concept/identity were to their detriment in the playoffs, but it was really Fleury all along. His streak of postseason performances from 2009 to 2013 was beyond abysmal.

Now they're actually getting good goaltending, and look how they're doing.

This is getting off topic, but Pitt is deeper offensively this year than they have been for a good while. Haglin and Kessel are big helps for them.
 

John Pedro

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Would you guys go after Shipachyov? skilled russian center. He's a bit old (29 years), but probably would be an upgrade over Henrique and Zajac offensively.

Cammy - Henrique - FA/trade
Boucher - Zajac - Palmieri
Zacha - Shipachyov - Blandisi
 

Devil X

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There is always a gamble when signing players. They all can suck the years after they sign but sometimes thats a chance you gotta take.

Id rather take that chance with a 26 y/o then a 30+ y/o. I know people are worried about the injuries and Im sure the Devils would look heavily into that before offering him a major deal. But with how how open this teams cap is now and for a while Im not worried 1 bit about having 1 player with a 10 mill hit for 7 more years.
 

Brodeur

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Would you guys go after Shipachyov? skilled russian center. He's a bit old (29 years), but probably would be an upgrade over Henrique and Zajac offensively.

Cammy - Henrique - FA/trade
Boucher - Zajac - Palmieri
Zacha - Shipachyov - Blandisi

Depends on the price, Elliotte Friedman made it seem like everybody's trying to sign him. Because of his age, Shipachev isn't required to sign an ELC. So it'll be interesting if teams are giving him multiyear deals and for how much. A two year deal might be the happy medium that gives Shipachev a little bit of security while being able to hit UFA again at 31, while also not being a possible long term albatross in case things don't work out.
 

Smitty426

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Jun 25, 2006
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This is getting off topic, but Pitt is deeper offensively this year than they have been for a good while. Haglin and Kessel are big helps for them.

Alot of people balked with the Hagelin signing in Ana
And yes for them it was tough but Pitt turned that into gold
It's not so much his scoring but the speed which you have to respect add Thrill Kessel and what a line you get adding Bonino too
 

Emperoreddy

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There is always a gamble when signing players. They all can suck the years after they sign but sometimes thats a chance you gotta take.

Id rather take that chance with a 26 y/o then a 30+ y/o. I know people are worried about the injuries and Im sure the Devils would look heavily into that before offering him a major deal. But with how how open this teams cap is now and for a while Im not worried 1 bit about having 1 player with a 10 mill hit for 7 more years.

It isn't just injuries. It is also a regression in numbers. He most likely will get paid as an 80 point player, but could realistically only be a 60 point player at this point. Add on the fact you aren't sure how many games a year you will get and it becomes a much bigger risk.

Contract is going to be nearly unmovable. Wasted and dead cap space is never a good thing.
 

Zippy316

aka Zippo
Aug 17, 2012
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If we've learned anything from signing Kovalchuk, watching the Rangers pre and immediately post 05 lockout, watching the Wild fail after the great Parise-Suter homecoming, etc., it's that signing guys to massive contracts rarely ends up being a good move. Who in recent memory has looked back on handing out these deals a couple years later and been happy they did it? Washington with Ovechkin? The Penguins with Crosby and Malkin? Chicago with Kane and Toews?

But look at how the Pens have struggled to ice a competitive bottom six for years. Look at how Chicago once again has to sell off good players because they're paying 21 million to two players.

Even in 2012, when we had 3 of probably the top 20 forwards in the league, the team didn't really take off until the bottom six was solidified with the additions of Ponikarovsky and Bernier and the return of Zajac.

Having a solid lineup from top to bottom is so important to competing, and giving $10 million to one player just makes it so much harder to do that.

We could sign Stamkos for $10 million, and I'd probably be excited about it. Stamkos and by some miracle a healthy Cammalleri would almost certainly make us a playoff team, especially if Henrique and Palmieri could repeat their seasons. But I can't help but feel like at some point we would regret that contract.

I get this argument, I truly do, but it is a bit flawed.

The reason it took the Penguins so long to start competing again is because they decimated their prospect pool. You can commit top money to star players, but you better make damn sure you have kids coming through that can fill out your roster. Shero didn't and added to the problem by trading away picks/prospects for veterans at the deadline. It's a lot easily to fill spots in when you have guys like Crosby/Malkin anchoring your forward group and Letang on the back end. They FINALLY got their influx of youth -- Rust, Sheary, Maatta, Dumoulin, Kuhnackl -- along with some timely additions. Same goes for Washington developing talent around Ovechkin and filling in the gaps they needed with guys like Orpik, Niksnanen, Williams, and Oshie.

I'm ok with signing Stamkos. I'm ok with committing around 10 million to him. However, that is only because the way this team is structured now and in the long term, it make sense. If Stamkos was pass-first more than shoot-first, I would be all over him. This team can afford to take on Stamkos long-term and with a high salary and build around it. The one thing we are missing in the prospect pool and at the NHL level is top-end talent. I think we're going to have enough Henrique's and quality middle-six guys sprinkled throughout our line-up with the prospects we have. If done right, I also think they could supplement Stamkos the same way the Pittsburgh young guys like Sheary, Rust, Kuhnackl are filling the holes in the Penguins line-up.

It's likely a moot discussion considering the chances of him coming here. But the way the Devils are right now, they have the ability to take on a high contract to add a star player and not have it hurt them. This is not nearly the same as adding Kovalchuk to an owner with tons of debt, still having to sign Zajac/Parise long term, and having little future in our prospect pool. The future looks pretty bright and the money/cap flexibility is as good as it can get in the cap era.
 

R8Devs

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Nov 20, 2010
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What do you mean it took the Penguins long to start competing again? Last season was the only time they didn't get past round 1 since 2010.
And in 2010 that was the year they still got 49 wins even with Crosby + Malkin injured for most of the season, and got to game 7 in the first round without them and that right there should indicate they had enough depth.

And there was that whole period of time in the playoffs where they couldn't even get competent goaltending from Fleury which led to their demise. Then when they got proper goaltending from Fleury they ran into a super hot Lundqvist in the 2nd round which allowed the Rangers to come back from a 3-1 series deficit. Just look at the Penguins records over the past few years the only time they weren't competitive was last season and it's becoming more clear a lot of that had to do with Johnston.

These young guys that you're talking (Rust, Sheary, Matta, Dumoulin, Kuhnhackl, Matt Murray) all came under Shero but it takes time for guys to make an impact so it's not like they didn't care about it but as said before it takes time and when you're in win now mode you don't exactly make your priority 5 years from now. Even now with Pittsburgh doing well they still have traded first round picks(JR traded Kapanen-2014 1st round pick for Kessel, 2015 first round pick for Perron, 2016 first round pick in trade for Kessel) doesn't mean they don't care about the future but they need to win asap.
 
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Bleedred

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It's interesting how people always claimed that Pittsburgh's lack of offensive depth and team concept/identity were to their detriment in the playoffs, but it was really Fleury all along. His streak of postseason performances from 2009 to 2013 was beyond abysmal.

Now they're actually getting good goaltending, and look how they're doing.

I know it's just one series of only 4 games, but I remember Vokoun playing well in the 2013 ECF and the Pens were still swept and scored like 3 or 4 goals in the entire series. And then last year, Fleury played well and they went out in 5 games to the Rangers. I think the only game Fleury allowed more than two goals was the only game they won. He was pretty atrocious between 2010 and 2013 in the playoff though.

And the acquisition of Kessel has definitely helped.
 

MadDevil

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Being able to roll out Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel all on different lines makes them a pain in the ass to match up against.
 

Rhodes 81

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Nov 22, 2008
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Looking back on it, I wasn't clear in what I meant. Was trying to say that unless you're clearly in win-now mode and you already have a good foundation to build on, it's better to maintain flexibility than it is to devote that much money to one player. I used bad examples for that.

Would you guys go after Shipachyov? skilled russian center. He's a bit old (29 years), but probably would be an upgrade over Henrique and Zajac offensively.

I'd be willing to give him a contract, for sure. The question is would other teams be willing to give him a bigger contract. Maybe, not a lot of teams can afford to give as much money as we can on a chance, but if we're talking 4+ million, I'd want to keep it to a 1-2 year deal. He may want more term than that, or may want to go to a cup contender.
 
Jun 18, 2011
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Since we're nowhere near competing, we shouldn't be going for contracts that'll hurt us when we actually are competitive. Let the four-headed monster in Toronto make those mistakes.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

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Since we're nowhere near competing, we shouldn't be going for contracts that'll hurt us when we actually are competitive. Let the four-headed monster in Toronto make those mistakes.

I am not sure people full grasp the cap space we have

we couldnt hamper ourselves with contracts if we really even tried IMO

we have no one past Palmieri that will likely draw a big contract anytime soon.
 

Smitty426

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Jun 25, 2006
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We have to field a team!
Yeah ok no Malakov contracts but we are not there

We no longer have to play the bottom 4 like we did last year
We should make this team competitive not sit on cap because maybe sometime that contract will be needed for player x


I hope Shero is very active with smart moves and make this team worth watching
Lappin (although happy to see him) etc is not going to do it
 

Emperoreddy

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I am not sure people full grasp the cap space we have

we couldnt hamper ourselves with contracts if we really even tried IMO

we have no one past Palmieri that will likely draw a big contract anytime soon.

That doesn't mean we should put a risky and potentially dumb contract on the books just because we have space.

It does go away quickly. We don't know if we might need that space for trades or safer UFA options in the next few years.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

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That doesn't mean we should put a risky and potentially dumb contract on the books just because we have space.

It does go away quickly. We don't know if we might need that space for trades or safer UFA options in the next few years.


I am not sure why this keeps getting brought up...its a really big strawman. I haven't seen one person say we should spend willy-nilly this offseason.
 

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People are being way too safe with all of this cap space.

If Stamkos wants 10M, give it to him.
 
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