Speculation: NJ Appeal?

[Loyal Lou]

The first 2 have already taken place without an appeal. To appeal the 3rd and final portion of the penalties wouldn't make sense because if you don't agree with the penalty in whole, you should appeal it in it's entirety prior to the first element going into effect, not just the final element at the 11th hour.

I think you're right. If there was going to be an appeal it would have happened by now. Maybe Josh Harris can make a new case considering he is a new owner and before it was all under Vanderbeek but that would be a stretch at best.

 

[Richer's Ghost]

I think you're right. If there was going to be an appeal it would have happened by now. Maybe Josh Harris can make a new case considering he is a new owner and before it was all under Vanderbeek but that would be a stretch at best.

Credit the logic to 1029 - I was pretty vocal about the technical ability to still appeal the penalty per the board of gov's but when he threw down that argument, it makes too much sense to ignore. Maybe if there had been a change in operations personnel at the league - maybe he tries but in light of no changes there and the package angle, I think we're fooling ourselves at this point out of desperate hope.

 

[Feed Me A Stray Cat]

I think you're right. If there was going to be an appeal it would have happened by now. Maybe Josh Harris can make a new case considering he is a new owner and before it was all under Vanderbeek but that would be a stretch at best.

That was public information that Harris knew when purchasing the team. It's effect, if any, would be in the purchase price.

 

[MartyOwns]

The total penalties had several parts,

-$3 million fine (already paid we assume)
-3rd round draft pick (already forfeited in 2010)
-1st round draft pick (any of 4 years - Devils choice, yet to be forfeited)

The first 2 have already taken place without an appeal. To appeal the 3rd and final portion of the penalties wouldn't make sense because if you don't agree with the penalty in whole, you should appeal it in it's entirety prior to the first element going into effect, not just the final element at the 11th hour.

gotcha, tbh i had forgotten about the 3m and 2010 pick since i was so focused on the 1st rd. thanks for clarifying

 

[glenwo2]

Well that sucks.


So the only way the Devils can have a 1st-rounder is to acquire one through a trade....and I have no idea how that can be done.

 

[MartyOwns]

So the only way the Devils can have a 1st-rounder is to acquire one through a trade....and I have no idea how that can be done.

sunlight creeps across his face, over his furrowed brow, his deformed nose and the spot where his teeth had once been. volchenkov, feeling the sunlight tickling his eyelids, groaned slowly as he opened his eyes. “Where am I?†he asked softly, his lips parched and chapped, the crisp air

nah instead of doing this I’ll just dream that volchenkov and larsson will be moved for malkin. totally possible, right? no need for a 1st rounder

 

[ThePSEGPowerPoster]

Credit the logic to 1029 - I was pretty vocal about the technical ability to still appeal the penalty per the board of gov's but when he threw down that argument, it makes too much sense to ignore. Maybe if there had been a change in operations personnel at the league - maybe he tries but in light of no changes there and the package angle, I think we're fooling ourselves at this point out of desperate hope.

I read the relevant portions of the old CBA and the new CBA. I realized that the idea of an "appeal" doesn't exist in the real of the CBA. It's very similar to MLB's Joint Drug Administration policy but a lot more disorganized.

On August 9th - Bloch ruled that the NJ Devils, though no evidence exists of intent, still circumvented the cap. Under the bylaws the league's burden was solely to prove circumvention, not intent, so Bloch upholds the league's punishment. There is no recourse under the CBA then nor is there recourse under the CBA now to appeal. Both sides, upon agreeing to arbitration/mediation, agree to accept the ruling of the arbiter.

It might be confusing but, in essence, no appeal process exists because neither side is expected to appeal these things. Once an independent arbiter looks at the punishment it's over. Done. You cannot pass go or collect $200. The league closes the matter and moves on.

Here's the ESPN (I know) article on it which gives a brief summary. You can click the link to read the full story:

It was not immediately clear if the Devils can appeal the ruling.

The NHL had the right to discipline the Devils after arbitrator Richard Bloch ruled on Aug. 9 that Kovalchuk's free-agent contract constituted a circumvention of the NHL/NHLPA collective bargaining agreement. The league's biggest problem with the deal was that the 27-year-old Russian star was to be paid only $550,000 in each of the final six years.

The $3 million fine will not count against the Devils' salary cap, a decision the league and the NHL Players' Association reached earlier this month in working out an amendment on long-term contracts.

That amendment paved the way for the league to approve a 15-year, $100 million contract that the Devils and Kovalchuk reworked after Bloch's arbitration ruling.

The NHL said it now considered the matter closed and will have no further comment, including anything on its disciplinary action.

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nhl/news/story?id=5569258

The only possible way Lou can even consider fighting this is to file a lawsuit which I don't see Lou doing. If Lou tries to appeal to the league there's no formal process designed to hear the appeal. I guess he could file a grievance? But grievances according to the CBA can only be brought forth by the NHL or NHLPA. Not the club.

 

[TrufleShufle]

I think Lou will fight it, but with his "no negotiating during the season" rule I think he will wait til after the draft......

 

[Richer's Ghost]

Did you read the constitution yet?

 

[ThePSEGPowerPoster]

Just because the Devils already forfeited a pick and paid the fine does not mean that they're barred from appealing.

For example in criminal law you might face a situation where a person is found "guilty" and then appeals, serving time and paying a fine, and then the court vacates the sentence and reimburses the fine.

In civil law, especially in any sort of liability claims, you can have a defendant pay damages without prejudice once a decision is issued. So a judge says, well I think you're responsible. The person can pay the plaintiff without prejudice, and then appeal at any time after that. If they win the appeal they're entitled to reimbursement.

Essentially a forfeiture of picks or money doesn't mean that you're forgoing your right to appeal. It just means you're cooperating and acting in good faith.

 

[ThePSEGPowerPoster]

Did you read the constitution yet?

Haven't gotten a chance. Went straight to the CBAs. I have to get to that on my train ride home.

 

[NJDevs26]

That's a really good point. If you don't appeal all the penalty and wait for just the last part to go into effect it really doesn't ring valid. Never thought of it that way. Makes me think Lou won't do anything at this pont.

I've brought that up before and was shot down by the conspiracy theorists who refuse to believe Lou doesn't have a trick up his sleeve. I'm not even sure he could have appealed in the first place. After all it was the NHLPA who negotiated the terms of the penalty in the first place (they fought against the fine being a cap penalty iirc).

 

[ThePSEGPowerPoster]

I've brought that up before and was shot down by the conspiracy theorists who refuse to believe Lou doesn't have a trick up his sleeve. I'm not even sure he could have appealed in the first place. After all it was the NHLPA who negotiated the terms of the penalty in the first place (they fought against the fine being a cap penalty iirc).

Well like I noted above I don't believe forfeiting a pick and paying a fine is admission of guilt by any means (not in the legal world at least). This is what very likely happened (from reviewing the CBAs, reviewing the articles, and my memory):

The NHLPA and the NHL were in the process of negotiating a new CBA. They moved to eradicate contracts similar to Kovy's. In the interest of protecting Kovy's interest, the NHLPA filed a grievance. That's how the issue presented itself to Bloch (again clubs can't file grievances). At that time, the NHLPA realized how poorly this looked and how negatively it affected labor peace and moved to resolve this matter with the NHL without extensive proceedings (fighting for a contract everyone wants eradicated in the future is silly). So the Devils penalty was upheld.

An unhappy Lou delayed this process as long as he possibly could. Forfeited a pick. Paid the fine. Delayed giving up the first until the last possible moment. He could, at this point, with 10 years of labor peace negotiated, push to eradicate the penalty.

If he wins and the league rules that the penalties are too severe, the NHL would reimburse the Devils the fine and the pick (or just say they don't have to give up the first).

Here's the deal though - Lou needs either the NHL or the NHLPA to file a grievance for him. I'm sure there's a process to do this that I don't know about in the Constitution but I haven't gotten to that yet. Or, Lou could file a lawsuit and force a real people judge to say "look, go find a mediator and figure this out under your CBA."

Either way is a win-win for the Devils.

 

[NJDevs26]

And what would be the NHLPA's motivation to file a grievance? Having one more first round entry level deal? Even the Fehrs ain't fighting that battle. What other motivation could they have for helping us out? They aren't in business of helping teams, they're in the business of helping players. You know the league ain't doing a doggone thing. What could Lou possibly do in court, file an injunction? On what grounds would the court want to be involved in a inter league dispute?

 

[ThePSEGPowerPoster]

And what would be the NHLPA's motivation to file a grievance? Having one more first round entry level deal? Even the Fehrs ain't fighting that battle. What other motivation could they have for helping us out? They aren't in business of helping teams, they're in the business of helping players. You know the league ain't doing a doggone thing. What could Lou possibly do in court, file an injunction? On what grounds would the court want to be involved in a inter league dispute?

The latter happens all the time actually. It's the final course of action teams take when they believe there is no recourse for resolution under BAs. Happened with the NFL (Bounty Gate).

The judge will always toss it to a mediator. Which is fine. Lou just wants his day in court right?

Also to your former point I think the owners would take special interest in their teams not being punished similarly. Who knows?

 

[NJDevs26]

The latter happens all the time actually. It's the final course of action teams take when they believe there is no recourse for resolution under BAs. Happened with the NFL (Bounty Gate).

The judge will always toss it to a mediator. Which is fine. Lou just wants his day in court right?

Also to your former point I think the owners would take special interest in their teams not being punished similarly. Who knows?

The new CBA pretty much prevents that from happening anyway, since there's now contract length and certain restrictions on year to year dips in the contract. It doesn't impact the other teams in any way other than screwing us and many of them whined we got off 'easy'.

 

[glenwo2]

Getting fined 3 mill, losing a 3rd, and now losing a 1st-rounder(that could end up being a Top-10 pick).....is considered "getting off easy"??

I think those JEALOUS(yes, JEALOUS) GM's out there(save the Red Wings) would consider the Devils getting contracted as a Just punishment.

 

[NJDevs26]

Getting fined 3 mill, losing a 3rd, and now losing a 1st-rounder(that could end up being a Top-10 pick).....is considered "getting off easy"??

I think those JEALOUS(yes, JEALOUS) GM's out there(save the Red Wings) would consider the Devils getting contracted as a Just punishment.

Not that I agree with them, but the griping at the time was that we got to choose a year we gave up the pick as opposed to surrendering it right away, which would have been a disaster (no Larsson) and that we didn't get cap penaltied which was also on the table and could have crippled us since we were over the cap as it was that year.

We didn't get off easy, but it could have been much worse even.

 

[ThePSEGPowerPoster]

The new CBA pretty much prevents that from happening anyway, since there's now contract length and certain restrictions on year to year dips in the contract. It doesn't impact the other teams in any way other than screwing us and many of them whined we got off 'easy'.

I think the main issue is the severity right? Lou is a smart guy. I can see Lou holding off on any appeal until after a new CBA is signed. If he would have appealed during negotiations or immediately thereafter, the climate would have been the same. Neither side would want to help him. Labor peace was priority.

Now? He's got the perfect climate. Kovy is gone. Other ridiculous contracts are on the books. Alfie's admission.

Maybe they can look back and realize that, in hindsight, they were a little harsh on the Devils.

 

[apice3*]

The total penalties had several parts,

-$3 million fine (already paid we assume)
-3rd round draft pick (already forfeited in 2010)
-1st round draft pick (any of 4 years - Devils choice, yet to be forfeited)

The first 2 have already taken place without an appeal. To appeal the 3rd and final portion of the penalties wouldn't make sense because if you don't agree with the penalty in whole, you should appeal it in it's entirety prior to the first element going into effect, not just the final element at the 11th hour.

All 3 penalties were imposed under the old CBA. The first two penalties were paid under the old CBA. There is a new CBA in place for the 3rd penalty and I still believe Lou will find something in the new wording to fight it.

 

[Devils Trap]

Im still 95% sure Lou fights and wins this.

Or atleast extends the time in which we can give up the pick / Gets cut to a 2nd pick etc. (Just becomes a little less severe)

 

[lboogie42*]

cant we trade for a first rounder or is that not allowed either?

 

[SeidoN]

Im still 95% sure Lou fights and wins this.

Or atleast extends the time in which we can give up the pick / Gets cut to a 2nd pick etc. (Just becomes a little less severe)

im 95% we we dont

cant we trade for a first rounder or is that not allowed either?

of course

 

[AfroThunder396]

You guys really think Lou hasn't explored this yet? That Lou is going to wait until the night before the draft to see if we can get out of this?

We haven't heard anything because nothing has happened, and nothing has happened because either we don't have grounds or the league is not entertaining the thought of an appeal.

If something DID happen, there would be a paper trail and someone would know about it. Overturning the decision would be a big deal and the guys like MacKenzie and Dreger would be all over it.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

You guys really think Lou hasn't explored this yet? That Lou is going to wait until the night before the draft to see if we can get out of this?

We haven't heard anything because nothing has happened, and nothing has happened because either we don't have grounds or the league is not entertaining the thought of an appeal.

If something DID happen, there would be a paper trail and someone would know about it. Overturning the decision would be a big deal and the guys like MacKenzie and Dreger would be all over it.

"when you have time, you use it"