Player Discussion Nick Seeler

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kfan22

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Jun 20, 2012
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I'm well aware of the narrative. I disagree with it.

I'd suggest the PP goal from Staal and Spurgeon that tied the game gave them the energy. Something that happens 1 our of 4 PP's on home ice and had a top 10 PP going against a bottom 10 PK. The PP opportunity was unrelated to the fight.

I'm personally unwilling to give the props from the hardwork Staal/Spurgeon did in scoring to Seeler.

But that's me, you're welcome to your opinion.


Read Boudreau's comments about the fight and what the bench reaction was and what was said....the Fight changed the game for the Wild
 
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ThatGuy22

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Read Boudreau's comments about the fight and what the bench reaction was and what was said....the Fight changed the game for the Wild

I'm aware of the quotes. It's a convenient narrative, and Russo decided that he wants that to be the headline for his game, so he leads BB's press conference with 3 questiosn on Seeler fighting and being physical.

It's a narrative used when convenient, ignored when not. If Staal doesn't score on the ensuing PP, it's a blip in the radar. I'm sure Detroit had every intention of getting after it for Witkowski as well. I hate to compare it to Gabriel, because Seeler does look like a useful hockey player outside of this fight, but it's a narrative Russo LOVED to push with Gabriel as well. Even when he was a complete liability every other time he stepped foot on the ice.

Assigning credit for Staal and Spurgeon hooking up on a goal to a player sitting in the penalty box will remain silly to me.
 

Bazeek

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Assigning credit for Staal and Spurgeon hooking up on a goal to a player sitting in the penalty box will remain silly to me.
Is that what people (Russo or posters here) are doing? It seems like the argument is more that the Wild weren't playing to their own capabilities before the fight, and the fight helped snap them out of it. Sometimes I need a cup of coffee to get going on a Monday morning; doesn't mean the coffee did my job for me.
 

ThatGuy22

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Is that what people (Russo or posters here) are doing? It seems like the argument is more that the Wild weren't playing to their own capabilities before the fight, and the fight helped snap them out of it. Sometimes I need a cup of coffee to get going on a Monday morning; doesn't mean the coffee did my job for me.

The implicit argument in putting so much emphasis on the fight is that it's atleast partially responsible for the comeback and the win. The only logical conclusion is that Seeler deserves some sort of implied credit for the goals scored while he was sitting in the penalty box.

That Seeler turned the team around, like they weren't going to do everything in their power to score on the ensuing power play anyway.
 

Bazeek

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The implicit argument in putting so much emphasis on the fight is that it's atleast partially responsible for the comeback and the win. The only logical conclusion is that Seeler deserves some sort of implied credit for the goals scored while he was sitting in the penalty box.

That Seeler turned the team around, like they weren't going to do everything in their power to score on the ensuing power play anyway.
I personally wouldn't push the argument that far and I'm not sure that that position is implicit in what others here have argued... but I feel like we're veering into the dreaded "intangibles" debate so I'll leave it there.
 

Minnesota

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I'll give him credit - He's surprised me.

He doesn't just bring toughness, he's making the occasional good play. Happy for the kid.
 

Nino Noderreiter

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Heard a tidbit on a podcast that I really liked. To summarize the podcasters thoughts, they compared Brodin to Seeler. Basically they said that Brodin is so good at one aspect of the game that he's an extremely valuable player regardless of anything else in their game. Brodin's elite skill is his skating ability, gap control, and stick. Brodin is as good as anyone in the NHL at gapping up and using his skating ability in stick to stop initial shots off the rush/in general by other teams skill players. That skill is so valuable that it doesn't matter if Brodin doesn't really produce all that much offensively in terms of point total or really show that he feels comfortable taking the puck and skating it through the neutral zone like Suter/Spurgeon/Dumba can. Brodin has enough puck skills to make simple plays and make that first breakout pass, etc. that allow him to not be a minus puck mover despite being a minus point producer. This is why Brodin's +/- is so high.

Seeler's elite skill is his physical ability to clear opponents out of the crease and prevent second-chance scoring opportunities off of rebounds around the net. Seeler's point totals won't ever be huge, like Brodin, but that skill in limiting secondary chances combined with good skating ability and enough puck skills to be a puck mover and break out cleanly, etc. mean that he's a plus player despite limitations that would seemingly render other players liabilities.

They argued that you could even say that limitating 2nd chance points in today's NHL might be even more important than limiting the first shot. Goalies usually stop the first shot. Rebounds and second-chance shots scrapping around the net are where the majority of goals are scored. Like Brodin, it's not surprising that Seeler is a +10 in 22 games with the game that he has shown thus far.

They said there's a chance that this is fluke and Seeler's playing way above his actual talent level, but if his initial skill set that he's shown is for real...the Wild could have a really interesting player that is maybe even capable of playing 2nd pairing minutes (he's been able to handle it pretty well so far)

Thought I'd share because I really like the comparision and I think it describes both players games pretty well. If Seeler is for real, it sets up a really intriguing situation for the Wild moving forward.
 
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63firebird

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Earlier in the year Brodin used that great skating to join the rush but it seems he’s reluctant to do that later in the year. Perhaps he’s not confident yet with his partner to step up? Either way his stick and gap control are very valuable.
 

2Pair

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Earlier in the year Brodin used that great skating to join the rush but it seems he’s reluctant to do that later in the year. Perhaps he’s not confident yet with his partner to step up? Either way his stick and gap control are very valuable.
Brodin has played over 400 NHL games. It might be time to stop blaming his shortcomings on other players?
 

Dr Jan Itor

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Brodin just isn't assertive offensively, which is ok; we have other guys to do that at the NHL level (Suter, Spurgeon and Dumba) and in the system (Belpedio). He has a role and performs his role just fine.

Regarding Seeler, and any thoughts of him making Brodin expendable; he has had a very nice run there, but there's nothing wrong with being patient and seeing if he can play consistently well in a 3rd pair role over the course of a full season (or two), not just 20-30 games.
 

Saga of the Elk

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Brodin just isn't assertive offensively, which is ok; we have other guys to do that at the NHL level (Suter, Spurgeon and Dumba) and in the system (Belpedio). He has a role and performs his role just fine.

Regarding Seeler, and any thoughts of him making Brodin expendable; he has had a very nice run there, but there's nothing wrong with being patient and seeing if he can play consistently well in a 3rd pair role over the course of a full season (or two), not just 20-30 games.

Yup. And he is still behind what Clayton Stoner was in terms of scoring as a pro.
 

Nino Noderreiter

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Earlier in the year Brodin used that great skating to join the rush but it seems he’s reluctant to do that later in the year. Perhaps he’s not confident yet with his partner to step up? Either way his stick and gap control are very valuable.

I don't think it's that Brodin and/or Seeler can't do it, they just don't have the puck skills, creativity, and mobility with the puck on their stick that Dumba/Spurgeon and also Suter have. If Brodin and/or Seeler do step up (I haven't seen enough of Seeler to really comment on whether or not he's at Brodin's level or better or worse or whatever) it's going to be a very north-south type movement. Brodin isn't going to deke a player 1 on 1 so he's gotta pick and choose his spots. If Brodin sees a bunch of open ice in front of him he's gonna take it and eat that space, but Brodin isn't a better option leading the rush entering the zone than most of the forwards he's on the ice with or the majority of minutes he plays with Dumba/Spurgeon/Suter as his D partner. Headmanning the puck to a more skilled puck carrier and following the play as a trailer is a better play most of the time.

That's not really a knock on Brodin, if headmanning the puck leads to a positive zone entry and numbers off the rush with Brodin as a trailer that's a plus play outcome. Hockey is a team game and plus outcomes lead to winning hockey. Playing within ones game and putting the team on the ice in plus situations on the ice is how you play winning hockey. This is an example of a decision by Brodin and how small plays he makes leads to his team scoring more goals than the opposing team when he's on the ice despite not potentially factoring in on the score sheet. An inexperienced player or a minus player would try and do too much and get himself into a situation where the puck is turned over. This kind of scenario is while Brodin is a minus offensive point producer he's not a minus puck mover.

Suter is a little bit more north-south/straight-line/methodical/less creative than Spurgeon and Dumba, but he makes it work in the methodical way that he seems to make everything work. Spurgeon and Dumba can operate entering in the zone and leading the rush in a way that most NHL defenders can't. They can really tilt games putting pressure on teams this way, but it takes a really high skill-set to do this. Brodin and Seeler not being at this level isn't so much a knock on them as players, but rather an example of what makes Spurgeon and Dumba so good.
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As long as Seeler can play within his game and make positive small positive plays that lead to bigger positive results from the 5 man unit he's on the ice with he'll be able to be a really solid player anchoring the Wild's 3rd pairing with the ability to step up and play equally as solid of minutes on a 2nd pairing if called upon.

Seeler's done that so far and it's what has made him look so solid and like a veteran thus far despite being a rookie. Most young players, especially at the NHL level when the pace of play is sped up and the quality of skill is much higher, struggle to make quick decisions at high speeds and/or lack an understanding of how to play within their games which leads to mistakes, TOs, and minus plays. The fact that Seeler has been able to step in from day 1 and show the maturity and IQ to be able to process all of this at the NHL level of play and an understanding of how to play within his game and make all of this small little positive plays is something that shouldn't be ignored.

Further, not only has he shown this type of hockey IQ, but he's also been able to find something he can excel at at the NHL level--clearing the crease and limiting 2nd chance opportunities. Finding a skill that you can excel at allows you to be a plus hockey player and provide something that others can't. Seeler, at least thus far, has shown that not only can he process the game at an NHL level and not make many mistakes, he's found an area he can differentiate himself in from the average player.
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Nino Noderreiter

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Yup. And he is still behind what Clayton Stoner was in terms of scoring as a pro.

Brodin just isn't assertive offensively, which is ok; we have other guys to do that at the NHL level (Suter, Spurgeon and Dumba) and in the system (Belpedio). He has a role and performs his role just fine.

Regarding Seeler, and any thoughts of him making Brodin expendable; he has had a very nice run there, but there's nothing wrong with being patient and seeing if he can play consistently well in a 3rd pair role over the course of a full season (or two), not just 20-30 games.
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I said this a few months ago in a Jonas Brodin thread:

"I think there's a slight difference between terrible offensively as a d-man and a terrible point-producer. Brodin doesn't score many points, but in terms of digging pucks out behind the net, making good first-passes, and being able to help the offense flow cleanly into and through the neutral zone are all things that Brodin does well--which for a defender and a unit with that defender on the ice is definitely a positive.

Clayton Stoner is a terrible offensive defender and a terrible-point producer. Brodin is a terrible point producer, but he's not terrible offensively.

Maybe there's others who have a difference of opinion."
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I can understand some differences of opinion where posters might think differently, but for the way I see the game that's how I understand it. For my money the distinction and level of offensive ability between Brodin and Stoner is as large as the difference between Brodin and Spurgeon, if not more-s0.

I'm only willing to comment on what Seeler has shown over 25 games or so and not willing to comment on his level of play during that sample size is indicative of Seeler's future level of play or ability. From what I've seen, Seeler is much closer to Brodin than Stoner--which is an extremely good thing. I think it's also important to add that, like Brodin, the skillset and IQ Seeler has shown from Day 1 in the NHL is likely pretty similar to what he will top out as going forward if this is his true caliber of play. Brodin was able to step in from Day 1 as a teenager and impress in a similar way to Seeler with his skating ability, advanced feel for the game, and ability to make positive plays moving the puck despite not being able to produce many points and not being that assertive in terms of carrying the puck up ice himself. I don't have enough feel for Seeler's game to say whether he tops out north or south of the Brodin bench mark, my feel is that it'll be pretty close if maybe not quite as adept as Brodin (again assuming the small sample size is real)

Brodin's gotten a little bit more comfortable offensively and as a puck mover, learned a few things, and has benefited from a ton of NHL experience, but the overall package isn't all that much different than what Brodin offered from Day 1. I think Brodin on an elite defensive team is a great 2nd pairing defender that can anchor a 2nd unit defensively, but can also just as capably step into a secondary role on a 1st line and provide the same type of ability. Seeler seems to be that same kind of anchor on an elite defensive team's 3rd pairing with a playstyle that allows him to step up and play 20ish mpg against tougher assignments and not really miss a beat if needed.

I don't think Seeler has quite Brodin's skating ability which probably means he's a notch below Brodin in terms of pure talent level, but I think the idea behind the kind of impact on the game is similar.
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One last kind of funny thought is that projecting Seeler as I have over the last few posts on this thread as sort of a upper-middle class Brodin the Wild have a pretty funny situation developing.

Belpido's likely at least a year and most likely 2 years away from being able to consistently get 3rd pairing NHL minutes and 2-3 years from above average NHL minutes, but if he develops into even 70% of his ceiling the Wild top 6 might leave fans seeing triple.

Each of the Wild's D Pairings in that scenario are poor man versions of each-other. Each have a stay-at home defensive defender paired with an extremely offensively creative/small-ish stature player.





 
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