NHL,NHLPA End Thursday Discussions - no other scheduled meeting

[GKJ]

Anyone who thought everyone was going to walk out without their 2 head guys and say that they're very close to a deal, are dilusional. People have to read between the lines. They have to go back and report to Bob and Gary and being that Bob and Gary weren't even at the meetings give me reasons to beleive that they are somewhere in Kansas meeting.

 

[PanthersRule96]

Daly said that it "was a good day" of talks or negotiations, but that they still had 2 opposite philosophies.

By saying it was good from Daly, it must have been a great day with much progress made. I wouldn't be the LEAST bit surprised if there is a deal that both sides are about to finalize as they report back to Goodenow and Bettman as it was pretty interesting the head members of the PA were all there but not at the meeting, just to get an update from Linden. I really think they are close to a deal and by saying that there were no further talks planned, but they did say the communication lines are open, I think both sides may be reviewing a potential deal and will spend some time on it and that's why they haven't come out and announced a next meeting. It didn't take 2 days to figure out both sides have completely different viewpoints. I think the next few days will have tons of rumors as people talk about a deal coming potentially by Sunday. All these things have been denied like the closing on the deal from Sportsnet, the hockey equipment ordering, the stnad by, etc.... IF they were denied, they probably leaked out and have some validity. I think we will see interesting progress and things come together in the next few days.

 

[Jaysfanatic*]

I dunno if Bob will be on to discuss this, but I don't get his position here

http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=112022&hubName=nhl

Is he cautiously optomistic, or is he pessimistic about a deal. At the beginning it sounds decent enough, and at the end, crash and burn, I can't gather anything, if I had to guess however, I'd say, crash and burn.

 

[PanthersRule96]

The closer they are to a deal, the less press they want. By saying there's no meetings, that allows the press to lay off for a while and allows time for the serious negotiations to go on behind the scenes. I think they are closer than we think they are. Plus, with the NHL struggling, they would not lose an entire season. It's a losing cause for both sides in that case. I think they will fix something out.

 

[GKJ]

I dunno if Bob will be on to discuss this, but I don't get his position here

http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=112022&hubName=nhl

Is he cautiously optomistic, or is he pessimistic about a deal. At the beginning it sounds decent enough, and at the end, crash and burn, I can't gather anything, if I had to guess however, I'd say, crash and burn.

With all due respect to Bob McKenzie, I think he either is putting up a smokescreen, or he fell for what the big players in the lockout are setting up.


Reading between the lines, one has to beleive the players are falling though here.

 

[bladoww]

Yeah, maybe the reason they said they haven't scheduled any talks is because they really want the media left out of the talks, and for the upcoming communications to be secret?

Exactly. With all the rumors and the like, I'm sure the last thing they wan't to do is emerge from a meeting all smiles, get the media hyped up (again), only to have the proverbial shiat hit the fan and the season get cancelled. This is a rollercoaster enough as it is.

 

[SENSible1*]

The league will make a final proposal to the PA next week.

It will contain cost certainty, but also all the other goodies that Saskin and Linden negotiated over the last two days.

The PA will then have a very important choice to make.

Here's hoping common sense prevails.

 

[hockeyfan125]

The league will make a final proposal to the PA next week.

It will contain cost certainty, but also all the other goodies that Saskin and Linden negotiated over the last two days.

The PA will then have a very important choice to make.

Here's hoping common sense prevails.

linky?

 

[MarkZackKarl]

Thunderstruck? Talking about common sense?

 

[SENSible1*]

linky?

I need a link to specultate on what I view as the most likely scenario?

If I'm wrong, I'll be here to remind.

 

[Driftwood]

What exactly is the NHLPA thinking? What are they waiting for?
If they don't make a deal this week, are they expecting to make a better deal next September after the owners have already cancelled a season?

 

[nyr7andcounting]

What exactly is the NHLPA thinking? What are they waiting for?
If they don't make a deal this week, are they expecting to make a better deal next September after the owners have already cancelled a season?

Well if they are waiting than that is obviously what they are waiting for.

 

[hockeyfan125]

I need a link to specultate on what I view as the most likely scenario?

If I'm wrong, I'll be here to remind.

Didn't see you speculating, I thought you were telling us what you heard.

 

[SENSible1*]

Didn't see you speculating, I thought you were telling us what you heard.

Sorry for any confusion my post caused, but I was just spelling out how I see things unfolding.

 

[Son of Steinbrenner]

What exactly is the NHLPA thinking? What are they waiting for?
If they don't make a deal this week, are they expecting to make a better deal next September after the owners have already cancelled a season?

i could argue the owners will be in worse shape next september than the players. the war chest will be almost gone.

they will have sold zero season tickets and there merchandise sales will be next to nothing.

diehard hockey fans will have had a whole year to find other things to do.

they will take a huge pr hit for not awarding a stanley cup

the best young prospect of the last ten years will be making a kings ransom in europe

hockey markets in the southern united states will be DEAD.

hockey markets in the northern united states will be close to dead

the good players will be playing in europe making a decent buck. yes its not nhl money but to some guys its pretty close to what they were making in north america.

the nhl is treading on dangerous ground right now if they cancel this season because they are betting the players will cave at some point next season. my question is what if the players don't cave in? what if the players say screw this we went this long i'll go another year without hockey? what happens than? do you think even the diehard hockey fan will care if the nhl restarts again in 2006-2007? i have news for you they WILL NOT.

i look at myself. i never watched network or cable tv before this season. I have discovered some pretty well written and entertaing tv shows over the past few months. I spend quality time with my wife (although she is pregnant so i think i would be anyway even if there was a season)

my point is the players have less to lose than the owners. the players will find jobs in europe while the owners will lose a billion dollar business. i know somebody is going to argue "not all players have jobs in europe?"

my reply is to that is the good ones do or will by next season.

 

[hockeyfan125]

Sorry for any confusion my post caused, but I was just spelling out how I see things unfolding.

Got it now. No problem

 

[CarlRacki]

i could argue the owners will be in worse shape next september than the players. the war chest will be almost gone.

they will have sold zero season tickets and there merchandise sales will be next to nothing.

diehard hockey fans will have had a whole year to find other things to do.

they will take a huge pr hit for not awarding a stanley cup

the best young prospect of the last ten years will be making a kings ransom in europe

hockey markets in the southern united states will be DEAD.

hockey markets in the northern united states will be close to dead

the good players will be playing in europe making a decent buck. yes its not nhl money but to some guys its pretty close to what they were making in north america.

the nhl is treading on dangerous ground right now if they cancel this season because they are betting the players will cave at some point next season. my question is what if the players don't cave in? what if the players say screw this we went this long i'll go another year without hockey? what happens than? do you think even the diehard hockey fan will care if the nhl restarts again in 2006-2007? i have news for you they WILL NOT.

i look at myself. i never watched network or cable tv before this season. I have discovered some pretty well written and entertaing tv shows over the past few months. I spend quality time with my wife (although she is pregnant so i think i would be anyway even if there was a season)

my point is the players have less to lose than the owners. the players will find jobs in europe while the owners will lose a billion dollar business. i know somebody is going to argue "not all players have jobs in europe?"

my reply is to that is the good ones do or will by next season.

If all you say is true and the NHL as we know it collapses, the owners will all go back to their million- and billion-dollar generating businesses outside hokcey and live quite contently. Nobody likes to see an investment blow up, so I'm sure it'll sting some, but they'll be just fine.

The fact is, if the NHL dies, it'll kill the players, not the owners. Not too many of these guys are educated to do much other than play the game. Most count on the game - and the huge salaries they receive from it - to provide the money they need for the next 50 years of their lives. If the game is gone, so is most of their earning capacity.

By the way, the idea that guys will make anywhere near in Europe what they earn in the NHL is laughable. With very few exceptions, the best guys playing in Europe earn about half the NHL average salary. Do you think the Euro players have been flocking to North America for the last 15 years for the scenery?

 

[MarkZackKarl]

Why the hell do you thinjk that the be all and end all of pro-hockey and heck even hockey in general is the NHL? If they want to commit suicide then go right ahead. Its not like there wont be new owners lining up for a new NA hockey league with the best players... You actually think that once the NHL goes extint that the only good teams with reasonable salary offerings will be in europe? Its quite evident that a new NA league would start up in the best markets and the NHL will be a footnote in history. Who cares if they want to commit suicide.

There will be a deal this season, but still, the notion that the players are screwed without the NHL is idiotic

 

[CarlRacki]

Why the hell do you thinjk that the be all and end all of pro-hockey and heck even hockey in general is the NHL? If they want to commit suicide then go right ahead. Its not like there wont be new owners lining up for a new NA hockey league with the best players... You actually think that once the NHL goes extint that the only good teams with reasonable salary offerings will be in europe? Its quite evident that a new NA league would start up in the best markets and the NHL will be a footnote in history. Who cares if they want to commit suicide.

There will be a deal this season, but still, the notion that the players are screwed without the NHL is idiotic

NHL TV ratings are abyssmal. Hockey has been relegated to a second-tier sport in much of the U.S. A good number of American sports fans don't know there's a lockout. A majority doesn't care. Many, if not most, teams lose money. Hockey players refuse to link salaries to revenue.
I can see why you believe investors would be lining up to bankroll a new hockey league.

 

[SuperUnknown]

hockey markets in the southern united states will be DEAD.

hockey markets in the northern united states will be close to dead

the good players will be playing in europe making a decent buck. yes its not nhl money but to some guys its pretty close to what they were making in north america.

the nhl is treading on dangerous ground right now if they cancel this season because they are betting the players will cave at some point next season. my question is what if the players don't cave in? what if the players say screw this we went this long i'll go another year without hockey? what happens than? do you think even the diehard hockey fan will care if the nhl restarts again in 2006-2007? i have news for you they WILL NOT.

If the owners get cost certainty, the fact that markets are dead affect them directly and primarily. If revenues shrink 50%, so does their salaries. The owners can always try to make a profit with the % they get, whatever the revenues are.

As to making a buck in Europe, most players make 1/10th of their NHL salary. Add insurances cost and many players are playing for free. Less than 10 players are making decent bucks in Europe. Why earn a total of $150-200M for all the players that find jobs when they could earn $1B?

 

[tantalum]

One good thing came out of these meetings. Unlike '94 when Gartner met with Fletcher and came away with the impression that they indeed read the owners correctly in that they were bluffing, Linden met with Hotchkiss and company and found out that the owners are dead serious. He most likley got the same answers as what were given to them by Bettman. There should be no doubt in the PA camp that the owners are not bluffing. And if management isn't bluffing their reasons for the lockout are sound. It'll be interesting to see what happens now.

I also see the league coming back with a last offer. I expect the offer to contain a luxury tax with elevated hard cap which may grandfather in a strict cap system or atleast grandfather in the final level of the elevated hard cap over a couple of seasons. I expect the offer to contain free agency at 30. I expect the offer to include no arbitration. I expect the offer to contain a qualifying offer of 90% for those under the league average and 75% for those over it. I expect a minimal rollback of 10% or so instead of the 24%, though it will be allocated as before. I expect a rookie cap with performance bonused not to exceed 50% of that base salary and a signing bonus at that 50%. I expect a franchise player exemption to the cap/tax system. I expect an end to hold outs. I expect signing bonuses and incentives to count towards the cap. I expect a minimum payroll.

In the end I expect if the players accept the framework that the cap and tax ideas will not really be negotiable but that they can get free agency to 29 perhaps 28, will be able to get arbitration though with equal team rights, get bonuses of X amount per team to not be included under the cap, qualifying offers to be 100% and 85%. But the league is not going to change the cap percentages by much and the players will have to play ball within the chosen framework.

A lot depends on this weekend while the NHLPA stews over what they were told in 10 hours of frank discussion Wednesday and Thursday. The rhetoric was toned down quite a bit from Saskins and Linden the last two days...still on the no cap thing but not nearly as forceful. We'll see but between these meetings and Goodenow's message telling the players to plan on playing elsewhere for peanuts the next two years the leagues point of view might sink in with the PA membership. And they might realise that they misread the situation, the owners are committed to this and that the owners are the ones in the drivers seat.

 

[clumping platelets]

One good thing came out of these meetings. Unlike '94 when Gartner met with Fletcher and came away with the impression that they indeed read the owners correctly in that they were bluffing, Linden met with Hotchkiss and company and found out that the owners are dead serious. He most likley got the same answers as what were given to them by Bettman. There should be no doubt in the PA camp that the owners are not bluffing. And if management isn't bluffing their reasons for the lockout are sound. It'll be interesting to see what happens now.

I also see the league coming back with a last offer. I expect the offer to contain a luxury tax with elevated hard cap which may grandfather in a strict cap system or atleast granfather in that elevated hard cap over a couple of seasons. I expect the offer to contain free agency at 30. I expect the offer to include no arbitration. I expect the offer to contain a qualifying offer of 90% for those under the league average and 75% for those over it. I expect a minimal rollback of 10% or so instead of the 24%, though it will be allocated as before. I expect a rookie cap with performance bonused not to exceed 50% of that base salary and a signing bonus at that 50%. I expect a franchise player exemption to the cap/tax system. I expect an end to hold outs. I expect signing bonuses and incentives to count under towards the cap. I expect a minimum payroll.

In the end I expect if the players accept the framework that the cap and tax ideas will not really be negotiable but that they can get free agency to 29 perhaps 30, will be able to get arbitration though with equal team rights, get bonuses of X amount per team to not be included under the cap, qualifying offers to be 100% and 85%. BUt the league is not going to change the percentages by much and the players will have to play ball within the chosen framework.

A lot depends on this weekend while the NHLPA stews over what they were told in 10 hours of frank discussion Wednesday and Thursday. The rhetoric was toned down quite a bit from Saskins and Linden the last two days...still on the no cap thing but not nearly as forcefully. We'll see but between these meetings and Goodenow's message telling the players to plan on playing elsewhere for peanuts the next two years the leagues point of view might sink in with the PA membership. And they might realise that they misread the situation, the owners are committed to this and that the owners are the ones in the drivers seat.

Wonderful post

 

[Jaysfanatic*]

Umm, of course there is no scheduled meeting, I was just thinking, Ted Saskin's freakin mum died!!! If Goodenow isn't there, Saskin almost certainly has to be......that is probably why they haven't scheduled anything yet.

 

[ChiHawks468]

I forget who it was, but someone from the negotiations eluded to that fact about Saskin.

Also, Daly was interviewed by tsn.ca(it's still on their website-"1 on 1 Interview) and said that they would be talking again and the timeframe he gave was "days" and then he was asked how much time there was to save the season and again he responded "days". To those who think a proposal is coming "next week" and that something could be worked out by the end of the week may be a little off.

I still think something could get done by the end of this weekend. My feeling is that they spent a good deal of time over the last few days nailing down the other peices of the CBA leaving only the cap/no cap piece left. Now it's up to either a compromise on that remaining issue or everyone starting to figure out what to do with their lives when the NHL folds.

 

[i am dave]

Umm, of course there is no scheduled meeting, I was just thinking, Ted Saskin's freakin mum died!!! If Goodenow isn't there, Saskin almost certainly has to be......that is probably why they haven't scheduled anything yet.

Actually, I'd tend to think both principles would have to be there for an official deal - Goodenow and Bettman. At the end of the day, Saskin and Daly are just there for good measure.