The Joker*
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The NHL essentially wants and needs a deal by June 1st. If it goes past that, the league and the FA situation will be a complete mess.
Oil3rs said:The NHL essentially wants and needs a deal by June 1st. If it goes past that, the league and the FA situation will be a complete mess.
Habs4Life said:Is this a theory or something that the NHL has said? Link maybe?
Interested on what Goodenow's take on this is .. They are clearly not talking , yet you would think that players and agents are seeking clarification and obviously not getting the same response as Daly is offering..kdb209 said:That's all theory.
Any transition issues - unsigned draftees, RFA qualifying offers, etc - will be dealt with in a new CBA.
Just because the current CBA says draftees must be signed by June 1 or go back into the draft (or UFA if overage), doesn't mean squat if the new CBA says elsewise.
All these transition issues will be dealt with explicitly in the new CBA, which takes precedence over whatever was said the old expired one.
The Messenger said:[
While most agree the CBA will address it, its also true that both sides must agree , So getting the NHLPA to agree should it be an issue may not be an easy thing to do, almost like getting blood out of a stone ..
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Well I guess you could hold out hope for that .. Hardly a single player during this lengthy dispute has said a bad word about the job Goodenow is doing .. And the early ones that spoke out got their answers at the NHLPA meeting .. Of which another is upcoming at the end of may ..Thunderstruck said:The CBA WILL address all these issues, even if individual agents waste their clients money getting meaningless court rulings. In addition, the owners will have little difficulty getting favorable terms once the paychecks begin going by the wayside and Goodenow is tossed aside.
The Messenger said:Well I guess you could hold out hope for that .. Hardly a single player during this lengthy dispute has said a bad word about the job Goodenow is doing .. And the early ones that spoke out got their answers at the NHLPA meeting .. Of which another is upcoming at the end of may ..
What you also feel to realize was that Goodenow and Bettman attended very few of the meetings in fact last year .. So the players should blame Saskin and Linden, Gartner, Damphousse, Guerin, and the rest of the executive committee for no deal being reached .. With Goodenow out of the direct dealings the council had all the opportunity to force a membership vote if it had received anything from the Owners group of substance.
I'd say the lost season was a good indication of the players putting their trust in Bob to get a deal done. I imagine that Tie Domi isn't the only players currently questioning the wisdom of that decision, especially since the cost of his failure was to the tune of 1.2 B.However the lost season should be a good indication that the proposals they have received to date are better served to wipe their a$$es with , then sign on the dotted line .. When you are willing to give up 1.2 bil in Salary you must think its worth it ..
If there was this big revolution brewing and under way then it would take a majority 350+ players to agree to a proposal, then you couldn't keep that quiet or contained from the papers. They would be filled with disgruntled players comments about the job Goodenow is doing or not doing for them.
The biggest factor in this is that hockey players are proud and stubborn people, and the NHL insulted them by claiming they are Autoworkers on an assemble line and easily replaceable.. Saying that the players are not the game .. Well those kind of tactics might just force replacement players and their possible failure if the players think they are right .. They might just let the owners try to prove them wrong on this issue .. Everyone agrees that putting the decision of this in the hands of the Fans is a risky situation particularly for the Owners ..
As far as pay cheques going by the wayside .. That issue is just as negotiable as RFA status and unsigned draft picks and would also need to be addressed one way or the other in the next CBA .. Its actually the biggest bargaining chip the owners have really .. If they hope to get most of the things they want in their favour in the next CBA, they could in fact bribe the players with the ability to agree that all valid contracts that existed pre-lockout could be extended 1 year as a result of the lockout. That solution address equally the issue of the soon to become RFA without qualifying issue. That tactic in fact not only may entice the players that have lost of year of NHL life but are now not out any money via the lockout and the greatest advantage to the Owners. It also avoids all possible anti-trust law suits if the players contracts are honoured and extended. That is a guaranteed way to get Goodenow to agree on this particular issue. IMO
Euro players playing at home is not a hardship for them .. That is their home countries and often they cut their NHL careers short in order to raise their families back in home countries. Lots of Euro's each year are forced out of the NHL and return home to continue playing. Your boy Alfredsson won a Euro championship, is playing the World Championships for his country, got a year of home cooking and all it cost him was his NHL salary and that is not even a guarantee yet.Thunderstruck said:It will be interesting to see the different flavour the meeting has with more European players involved. Still, I expect them to come out singing a stirring rendition of "Cumbaya" for the press and PA cheerleaders to eat up..
Sure he has influence, but so do the council .. For your statement to be evenly remotely true you would have to believe that Saskin and the council have a complete different view then Goodenow, and no say or power and that is complete nonsense .. Goodenow is there to assist them in negotiations, not over rule them .. That is no different for Bettman as he does what the owners tell him to do .. He does not tell them .. Revenue sharing from big market teams is a good example .. Bettman can request it from owners but not demand it, nor force it as he works for them ..Thunderstruck said:At the meetings or not, Goodenow was firmly in control, as was Bettman for the owners. The one time Bobby lost control we almost got a deal done, but he managed to grab it back and embarrass Wayne and Mario in the process. Pretending that the leadrers needed to be physically present to control the direction of the meetings is absurd. ..
Sure both sides are unhappy the season was lost .. No different then owners who made big money even under the Old CBA. They would have taken the very first proposal the NHLPA offered of the 24 % rollback, and played at least 1/2 a season. They decided to sacrifice for the group as a whole and the mentality of the NHLPA group is no different.Thunderstruck said:I'd say the lost season was a good indication of the players putting their trust in Bob to get a deal done. I imagine that Tie Domi isn't the only players currently questioning the wisdom of that decision, especially since the cost of his failure was to the tune of 1.2 B...
Again sure there is pressure .. but you would have to believe that any other person in charge of the NHLPA last season would have taken a previous NHL offer .. Since Linden and the councel felt as strongly as Goodenow, changing the figure head leader would not have changed the outcome and the $1.2 Bil lost regardless IMO.Thunderstruck said:When the paychecks start going missing in the fall, the rumble will begin. Goody won't last long once it starts. ...
That might be true, but unless you are Clairvoyant and can read the tea leaves your guess is a good as anyone else .. The NHLPA put aside union funds (lockout pay)expecting a dispute possibly going as long 1 1/2 - 2 years .. They warned us even before the lockout began that this was going to be long.. Owen Nolan and his agent 2 years prior to the lockout had a clause in this contract added that said he gets another year if the season is lost ... That suggests that only you are surprised at the actual year being lost. The NHLPA and the NHL for that matter with its War Chest also anticipated this and made plans accordingly.. At this stage a NHL crumbling is also still quiet possible as the Owners take the best NHLPA proposal they get in order to no lose a second season, particularly in Replacement players become a NO GO because of BC and Quebec provincial legislation ..Thunderstruck said:Proud and stubborn bought Bobby a year. It won't last through a second. If the players had viable alternatives, then he'd be fine. Since there is nowhere else to earn comparable money to even the worst league offer, the players will cave. ...
You certainly have a very one side view of this dispute .. In order to play the game the players are going to take major pay cuts and that starts with their own 24% rollback. The NHL proposals to date are so restrictive in some areas that players like Crosby are threatening to play in Europe to earn more $$ then entry level contracts allow .. So you have players that are not even members yet disappointed by the current negotiations, one can only imagine what actual players feel.Thunderstruck said:The biggest bargaining chip the owners have is an NHL paycheck. They won't need any other chips once the PA caves and Goodenow is tossed. However, if they are smart, they throw the new leader a bone or two to help smooth the waters and start forming the partnership BOTH sides need. If they decide that honouring existing contracts is that bone, then so be it, but I have my doubts that the owners or the PA will push for that particular concession. The owners because the cost will be too high for a severely damaged league and the players because it helps some, but hurts others (and the players it helps already made out like bandits under the previous CBA).
To avoid such a conflict, the NHL wants a deal with the union no later than July 1 and preferably before June 1.
He did, what's your point?PepNCheese said:Hang on here....WHAT conflict?
I thought Daly told us all this was baseless pro-union rhetoric?
The Messenger said:If there was this big revolution brewing and under way then it would take a majority 350+ players to agree to a proposal, then you couldn't keep that quiet or contained from the papers. They would be filled with disgruntled players comments about the job Goodenow is doing or not doing for them.
The NHLPA can vote if they wish. All they need is 50% plus 1 to force a vote. They do not need a super majority like the owners to hold a vote and pass a deal.DW3 said:That's even assuming it made to the 350+ players for a vote. The last few proposals never did, even though it was speculated by many (like Barry Melrose and Darren Pang, just name a few) that the players would have voted in favor of it. What this whole mess has basically boiled down to is 12 people from each side making all the decisions for the rest. I wonder how long the lockout would have continued if both sides were able to get a full vote on the proposals?
http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=122913Hull says he's not optimistic of a new deal anytime soon adding that the issue is not about money.
"The propaganda going around is ridiculous. What, because they're meeting they're going to get a deal done? They're not even close because the owners will not help us at all. My feeling is until the owners come and help us out, to help them, there's going to be no deal."
"If we thought that the money was that important, we would take any deal. But we're talking about my kids and the kids in the future coming up to play in this game, having the same opportunity that we did, that we're not going to sell them out."
The Messenger said:Euro players playing at home is not a hardship for them .. That is their home countries and often they cut their NHL careers short in order to raise their families back in home countries. Lots of Euro's each year are forced out of the NHL and return home to continue playing. Your boy Alfredsson won a Euro championship, is playing the World Championships for his country, got a year of home cooking and all it cost him was his NHL salary and that is not even a guarantee yet.
Silent discontent does not equal solidarity.Your solidarity 1 day and revolution the next makes little to no sense .. What purpose does that serve, if you're about to execute your leader ??
Bettman has one voice amoung a group of very powerful men. They may respect his intelligence and opinion enough to give extra weight to his opinion, but ultimately it is their money and they will not let him persue a path they are not comfortable with as a group.Sure he has influence, but so do the council .. For your statement to be evenly remotely true you would have to believe that Saskin and the council have a complete different view then Goodenow, and no say or power and that is complete nonsense .. Goodenow is there to assist them in negotiations, not over rule them .. That is no different for Bettman as he does what the owners tell him to do .. He does not tell them .. Revenue sharing from big market teams is a good example .. Bettman can request it from owners but not demand it, nor force it as he works for them ..
The list of owners "who made big money under the old CBA" is to short to be of consequence. The owners have other places they can put their money if the NHL continues to be shut down, most of which would offer a better return on their investment. The players have no other comparable options to ply their trade.Sure both sides are unhappy the season was lost .. No different then owners who made big money even under the Old CBA. They would have taken the very first proposal the NHLPA offered of the 24 % rollback, and played at least 1/2 a season. They decided to sacrifice for the group as a whole and the mentality of the NHLPA group is no different.
Domi let us in on one scenario where Linden was satisfied with a framework that Goodenow squashed. How many other times did this happen? It certainly looks like some players (agents?) attempted an end around after the season was cancelled and it would have worked until Goodenow regained control.Again sure there is pressure .. but you would have to believe that any other person in charge of the NHLPA last season would have taken a previous NHL offer .. Since Linden and the councel felt as strongly as Goodenow, changing the figure head leader would not have changed the outcome and the $1.2 Bil lost regardless IMO.
Alfredsson Salarys' for 2004/05 as per nhlpa.com ..Thunderstruck said:All it cost Alfie was 5 M dollars. Think he'll go for another 5 M?..
The Messenger said:Alfredsson Salarys' for 2004/05 as per nhlpa.com ..
http://www.nhlpa.com/WebStats/PlayerBiography.asp?ID=49
Salary .. $ 5,430, 660 . 00Less : 24 % rollback ( - $ 1,303,358.00)
Balance .. $ 4, 127,301.00Less: Income tax - Payroll deduction @ 40% - ( - 1,650,920.00 )
Balance .. $ 2, 476,380.00
Less : Frolunda SEL Salary or other Euro league *estimate* ( - $ 1,000,000.00 )Balance .. $ 1, 476,380.00
Think also of all the other NHLers that found work in Europe during the lockout nearly 1/2 the NHLPA members and most are not making $ 5.5 mil like Alfredsson and losing even less.
The Messenger said:Average Hockey player Old CBA 1.8 Mil Average / year Salary
Salary .. $ 1,800, 000 . 00
Less : 24 % rollback ( - $ 432,000.00)
Balance .. $ 1, 368,000.00Less: Income tax - Payroll deduction @ 40% - ( - 547,200.00 )
Balance .. $ 820, 800.00 kLess : Union stipent - lockout pay @ 10,000/month - (Oct-May) = ( - $80,000.00)
Balance .. $ 740, 800.00 *(net take home pay)So the Average Hockey player would need to find a job in Europe that will pay him about $ 750,000 US per season to break even by the lockout ..
(excluding other deductions like Union Dues and Other payroll taxes)
Again a Euro season is 1/2 the length of the NHL to boot ..
Damn those greedy NHLers !!!!!!!!
was this ever in doubt ? from the PA's first offer in September, the deal was already in favour of the owners.Thunderstruck said:....deal (will be) on the owners terms.