NHL Agent loses certification

[mudcrutch79]

But I don't think this has anything at all to do with it. I knew they had a system. Anybody who used the stats on the NHLPA site knew they had a system for correlating statistics. There is not one statistic on the system that anybody could not get out of the latest NHL guide and record book. It is convenient. That's it. That the NHLPA had a system was not a secret. Telling people that they had a system betrayed nothing.

On the other hand, there is a lot of information on the system about the specific player contracts that is not public. It is not up to McBride to decide Nick Schultz won't mind if the reporter sees the bonus provisions in his contract. It is not up to McBride to decide whether Nick Schultz will mind if the reporter knows what qualifying offer the Wild made to him.

It's tough to argue that point, except to point out that anyone who cares knows what a guy's qualifying offer-if he's under the league average it's 110%, if he's over it's 100%. I find it surprising that the NHLPA, the champions of full salary disclosure, get a little skittish if someone shows someone else what a qualifying offer is. It makes a little more sense to me if they're upset because someone showed the extent to which they were playing the system.

McBride was given access to a system that contains genuinely private information about the players because he is a certified player agent who can use the information to help his clients. In return, he promises to keep that information confidential. He breached that confidence by letting a reporter into the system.

Winter didn't do that. The really stupid thing about McBride is that he knew it was wrong. He wasn't on the record like Winter. He showed the reporter around the system on the condition the reporter not identify him.

I suspect we can argue all day about what the really stupid thing about McBride is. I think it's stupider that he had to know it was easy to get caught, particularly once the reporter ran that specific example using Schultz. I see your point though, although the NHLPA has championed having player salary information in the public domain, so it seems somewhat hypocritical now to say "No, we want this stuff to be private."

How does it do this? I think this is a crazy idea. It does not do anything of the sort. It helps the agent ballpark the player's worth. It gives the agent access to all the details of the contracts of comparables. That's it. NHL teams have access to exactly the same information.

It allows the NHLPA to identify players who have arbitration-comparable players that are paid significantly more. It allows them to avoid sending guys like Thedore and Iginla in, as they can get more through the threat of a holdout. It allows them to avoid sending in guys like Marchant or Brewer, who aren't going to win; there's an epic Brewer arbitration thread where his comparables paid more are dicussed-he had none, and Meehan settled. The NHLPA's goal is to keep raising the boats by pouring more water into the sea. Ensuring that they receive only favourable arbitration awards is a pretty obvious part of the strategy. The NHLPA has a pretty compelling interest in avoiding seeing guys get smoked in arbitration and in seeing players do well outside of arbitration. It'd be foolish of Goodenow to not be on top of this stuff. It's been said that Ray Bourque kept salaries down by agreeing to minimal raises. He'd have the boots put to him today, privately, if he did the same thing.

The NHLPA has nothing to do with deciding which players file for arbitration. As far as I am aware, agents never consult with the NHLPA about the specifics of a contract negotiation.

Article 12.5.e of the CBA gives the NHLPA the right to represent a player at the hearing, unless the NHLPA chooses to delegate it. That's a pretty effective tool to use in convincing a guy that arbitration isn't the right route for him. Not to mention that although an agent may not consult with the NHLPA, their own system lets them view the state of negotiations. And without that 120 minute time limit to worry about...

 

[mudcrutch79]

Arbitration briefs and negotiating strategies can be developed pretty easily without access to the system. I've done it.

This is something you said in a different thread Tom. If you've actually participated in a case that's gone through to arbitration as a player rep, I won't argue the point that the NHLPA exerts control with you-you've obviously got inside experience. If not, I still think it's perfectly rational for the NHLPA to be involved in this aspect.

 

[Tom_Benjamin]

I find it surprising that the NHLPA, the champions of full salary disclosure, get a little skittish if someone shows someone else what a qualifying offer is.

I think the NHLPA is going to eventually stop publishing salaries except on password protected websites. They only disclosed because the owners were lying about them. Otherwise it has given them and the players nothing but grief. Today, there is no need to publish.

I suspect we can argue all day about what the really stupid thing about McBride is. I think it's stupider that he had to know it was easy to get caught, particularly once the reporter ran that specific example using Schultz. I see your point though, although the NHLPA has championed having player salary information in the public domain, so it seems somewhat hypocritical now to say "No, we want this stuff to be private."

We don't know what information is on the website. It doesn't matter. What does matter is that Bryant agreed to keep the information on the website confidential. You think betraying a confidence like that is okay for a player agent? I don't care if the information is no more than the address and phone number of the player. It is a password protected site with information the NHLPA deems confidential.

McBride gave a reporter a tour. Whether we think the information should be confidential or not is not relevant. That's a dismissal offence. You can't seriously argue otherwise. I think McBride was too stupid to realize he would get caught.

It allows the NHLPA to identify players who have arbitration-comparable players that are paid significantly more. It allows them to avoid sending guys like Thedore and Iginla in, as they can get more through the threat of a holdout. It allows them to avoid sending in guys like Marchant or Brewer, who aren't going to win; there's an epic Brewer arbitration thread where his comparables paid more are dicussed-he had none, and Meehan settled.

Well exactly. A bunch of fans on a message board can find the comparables. The system doesn't allow them to do this - information that is publicly available allows them to do this. This just makes it easy. It isn't rocket science. It is very easy to identify the players who will do better outside the arbitration process - the best players. The ones who set the bar.

Why do you think a computer program provides some magic edge?

The NHLPA's goal is to keep raising the boats by pouring more water into the sea. Ensuring that they receive only favourable arbitration awards is a pretty obvious part of the strategy.

They only get favourable arbitration awards? They can't ensure this. They don't only get favourable arbitration awards. There is no evidence that remotely supports this. I don't think the Canucks have ever lost an arbitration case. We aren't usually told what the team offered and what the player demanded. No evidence has been presented to show arbitration awards are inflationary and it would certainly be possible to show it if it was true.

Players opt for arbitration. The NHLPA has nothing to say about it. They just don't. I have done business with player agents and the idea that they take marching orders from the NHLPA on player contracts is nuts.

The NHLPA has a pretty compelling interest in avoiding seeing guys get smoked in arbitration and in seeing players do well outside of arbitration. It'd be foolish of Goodenow to not be on top of this stuff. It's been said that Ray Bourque kept salaries down by agreeing to minimal raises. He'd have the boots put to him today, privately, if he did the same thing.

I don't believe it. Particularly since Bourque lost one of the landmark arbitration cases. The NHLPA does not have a compelling interest in this regard. Their interest is in ensuring the arbitration system is fair. The NHLPA does not have an interest in a CBA that is inherently inflationary either.

The market is not set by the NHLPA or the CBA. The CBA sets out a framework for players and teams to individually negotiate salaries. The sum of those individual negotiations is the market.

Tom

 

[PecaFan]

How does it do this? I think this is a crazy idea. It does not do anything of the sort. It helps the agent ballpark the player's worth. It gives the agent access to all the details of the contracts of comparables. That's it. NHL teams have access to exactly the same information.

Come on. Player X is making 3 million, and the comparables are making 4. Player Y is making 2 million, and the comparables are making 1.

And you don't think that info doesn't identify who's going to win arbitration?

As for "NHL teams have access to the same info", I find it extremely hard to believe that Toronto or Vancouver knows exactly what salary offers (including unaccepted offers) were made to every player in the NHL that isn't their property.

'Cause that's collusion.

 

[PecaFan]

They only get favourable arbitration awards? They can't ensure this. They don't only get favourable arbitration awards. There is no evidence that remotely supports this. I don't think the Canucks have ever lost an arbitration case. We aren't usually told what the team offered and what the player demanded. No evidence has been presented to show arbitration awards are inflationary and it would certainly be possible to show it if it was true.

Give me a break. No evidence? We've covered this repeatedly, you just refuse to recognise it. *EVERY* player gets a increase in arbitration. Can you point out even a single player who didn't?

When a player "loses" arbitration, he just gets a *large* increase, instead of winning when he gets a *massive* one.

Last year's list again:

Anaheim Mighty Ducks -

D Ruslan Salei
# Awarded $2.4 million ($1.75 million)

Atlanta Thrashers -

RW Ronald Petrovicky
# Settled at $700,000 ($467,500)

C Marc Savard
# Settled at $2.7 million ($2 million)

Boston Bruins -

D Hal Gill
# Settled at $2.1 million ($2 million)

D Sergei Gonchar
# Awarded $5.5 million ($3.65 million)

C Joe Thornton
# Awarded $6.75 million ($5.5 million)

Buffalo Sabres -

G Mika Noronen
# Settled on two years starting at $825,000 ($550,000)

D Brian Campbell
# Settled at $550,000 ($550,000)

C Jochen Hecht
# Settled at $2.1 million ($1.3 million)

D Rory Fitzpatrick
# Settled at $700,000 ($375,000)

RW Jean-Pierre Dumont
# Settled at $2.1 million ($1.4 million)

G Martin Biron
# Awarded $2.8 million ($2.2 million)

D Brad Brown
# Settled at $700,000 ($750,000)

C Daniel Briere
# Awarded $2.55 million ($1.6 million)

Calgary Flames -

G Miikka Kiprusoff
# Awarded $2.95 million ($800,000)

D Denis Gauthier
# Settled on two years starting at $1.6 million ($1.3 million)

Carolina Hurricanes -

RW Jesse Boulerice
# Settled at $600,000 ($450,000)

LW Erik Cole
# Settled at $1.5 million ($495,000)

C Kevyn Adams
# Settled at $900,000 ($700,000)

Chicago Blackhawks -

D Bryan Berard
# Settled at $3 million ($2.01 million)

D Stephane Robidas
# Settled at $925,000 ($727,502)

Colorado Avalanche -

RW Milan Hejduk
# Awarded $5.7 million ($3.2 million)

LW Alex Tanguay
# Settled at $4.25 million ($1.5 million)

Edmonton Oilers -

D Eric Brewer
# Settled at $2.65 million ($2.5 million)

Florida Panthers -

D Mike Van Ryn
# Settled at $1.4 million ($1.128 million)

Los Angeles Kings -

C Eric Belanger
# Awarded $950,000 ($743,800)

Minnesota Wild -

D Willie Mitchell
# Settled at $1.775 million ($1.35 million)

LW Andrew Brunette
# Settled at $1.775 million ($1.1 million)

RW Richard Park
# Settled at $950,000 ($700,000)

Montreal Canadiens -

LW Richard Zednik
# Settled on three years starting at $2.3 million ($1.85 million)

G Cristobal Huet
# Settled on two years starting at $600,000 ($425,000)

Nashville Predators -

RW Steve Sullivan
# Settled

C Wyatt Smith
# Settled at $400,000 (minor leaguer last season)

RW Vladimir Orszagh
# Awarded $1 million ($700,000)

New Jersey Devils -

C Scott Gomez
# Awarded $2.9 million ($1 million)

D Brian Rafalski
# Settled at $3.1 million ($3 million)

D Scott Niedermayer
# Awarded $7 million ($4 million)

NY Islanders -

C Oleg Kvasha
# Awarded $1.55 million ($800,000)

D Janne Niinimaa
# Settled on three years starting at $3 million ($2.9 million)

LW Jason Blake
# Settled on three years starting at $2 million ($700,000)

D Adrian Aucoin
# Awarded $4.25 million ($3.25 million)

C Dave Scatchard
# Settled at $1.75 million ($1.4 milllion)

NY Rangers -

D Karel Rachunek
# Settled at $1.5 million ($900,000)

Ottawa Senators -

D Chris Phillips
# Settled on three years starting at $2.3 million ($1.675 million)

LW Peter Schaefer
# Settled on two years starting at $1.2 million ($600,000)

D Zdeno Chara
# Settled on two years starting at $4.6 million ($2.4 million)

Philadelphia Flyers -

D Kim Johnsson
# Awarded $2.8 million ($1.25 million)

C Michal Handzus
# Settled on three years starting at $2.8 million ($1.53 million)

Phoenix Coyotes -

LW Ladislav Nagy
# Settled at $2.1 million ($1 million)

C Daymond Langkow
# Settled at $2.95 million ($2.7 million)

San Jose Sharks -

LW Nils Ekman
# Awarded $1.2 million ($575,000)

G Vesa Toskala
# Settled on two years starting at $850,000 ($575,000)

RW Scott Parker
# Settled at $700,000 ($665,000)

D Scott Hannan
# Settled on three years starting at $2.55 million ($1.25 million)

G Evgeni Nabokov
# Settled on two years at $4.425 million per season ($3.625 million)

Tampa Bay Lightning -

D Pavel Kubina
# Awarded two years at $3.1 million and $3.4 million ($2.5 million)

LW Ruslan Fedotenko
# Awarded $1.5 million ($950,000)

D Cory Sarich
# Settled on two years starting at $1.6 million ($1.15 million)

LW Fredrik Modin
# Settled on three years starting at $2.9 million ($1.87 million)

C Cory Stillman
# Awarded $3.9 million ($2.75 million). Lightning decline the contract, making Stillman an unrestricted free agent.

Toronto Maple Leafs -

D Tomas Kaberle
# Settled on two years starting at $2.9 million ($2.75 million)

D Bryan McCabe
# Settled on two years starting at $4.45 million ($3.5 million)

C Nikolai Antropov
# Settled at $1.325 million ($925,000)

C Clarke Wilm
# Settled at $450,000 (minor leaguer last season)

Vancouver Canucks -

G Dan Cloutier
# Settled at $3.05 million ($2.5 million)

C Brendan Morrison
# Settled at $3.55 million ($2.45 million)

Washington Capitals -

D Brendan Witt
# Awarded $2.2 million ($1.75 million)

 

[Verbal Kint*]

Meanwhile, in an unrelated matter, sources say the NHLPA is reviewing certified agent David Frost's status after he was banned from all Central Ontario Junior Hockey League venues after a recent exchange with an off-ice official.

Best part of the entire article.

 

[thinkwild]

Come on. Player X is making 3 million, and the comparables are making 4. Player Y is making 2 million, and the comparables are making 1.

And you don't think that info doesn't identify who's going to win arbitration?

All it does is show when anyone could figure out. The arbitrator has to determine which player he is more like.

As for "NHL teams have access to the same info", I find it extremely hard to believe that Toronto or Vancouver knows exactly what salary offers (including unaccepted offers) were made to every player in the NHL that isn't their property.

'Cause that's collusion.

All the offers and counter offers that were stored on the NHLPA website. Information that would obviously be protected. Why cant the owners enter all that information after the fact into their system. What would be colluding about that?


As for all your examples of arbitration increasing salaries, you are missing the point. Of course they all get raises. That is the nature of the system. Players start off capped and slowly get raises until 13 year later they get market value as a UFA. That they got a raise doesnt prove anything is inflationary. It is expected. Arbitration is simply pointing out who they compare to. Of course they got a raise. If you knew what was on the password protected website regarding offers and counter offers, you could decide whether they got closer to what they were asking, or what the team was offering. But without that password, we just cant know. But showing players who were eligible for arbitration got a raise, and holding that up as proof the system is inflationary, would seem to be missing the point entirely.

 

[Tom_Benjamin]

Come on. Player X is making 3 million, and the comparables are making 4. Player Y is making 2 million, and the comparables are making 1.

And you don't think that info doesn't identify who's going to win arbitration?

No, I don't. An arbitrator - a neutral third party - decides what they get in arbitration. If they make a bad decision - either way - they will get fired. The worst arbitration in history was Bryan McCabe's first one, and the arbitrator was promptly fired.

Arbitration is designed to settle disputes when the team and the player can't arrive at a fair market value. It is designed to prevent holdouts. It works to prevent holdouts. Unless the player is good enough to set the bar, arbitration is always a better option than holding out. I think Marty Turco got bad advice when he passed on arbitration and I think he paid for it when he signed his contract.

If a computer program can identify who will win in arbitration there is no reason to have the process at all. The NHL and NHLPA can negotiate a computer program that makes the rulings.

Tom

 

[Tom_Benjamin]

Give me a break. No evidence? We've covered this repeatedly, you just refuse to recognise it. *EVERY* player gets a increase in arbitration. Can you point out even a single player who didn't?

When a player "loses" arbitration, he just gets a *large* increase, instead of winning when he gets a *massive* one.

A high school kid should be able to see the logical fallacy. Give your head a shake. Think about it. If you cannot see the flaw in your argument, I feel sorry for you. Something went wrong with your education and you will make many, many unnecessary decision making errors in your life.

In every case, we are looking at a former fringe player who is now a regular, or a former role player who has stepped up to a second line player or a former second liner who now has a first line role. In every case, somebody else lost a job as a regular, a second liner, or a first liner because the number of those jobs is finite.

Only a very ignorant person would look at half the equation and decide to draw conclusions from it. How much did the NHL save with the retirements and demotions these changes involve? That is hard to figure out, but it would be very easy to determine whether arbitration is inflationary. I would be very surprised if the NHL (and the NHLPA) has not done a proper study of it. They should be monitoring it every year. They almost certainly do.

1) Take the average arbitration award each year for the past ten years.

2) Take the average NHL salary each year for the past ten years.

3) Calculate which has increased faster.

I'll bet there is very little difference. That would signal arbitrators do a good job. If the average salary has increased faster than arbitration awards, the NHLPA should be firing arbitrators because the awards are skewed towards the owners and arbitration is holding down salaries. If the average salary has increased more slowly than arbitration awards, the NHL should be firing arbitrators because the awards are skewed towards the players and arbitration is accelerating salary inflation.

Why isn't either the NHLPA or NHL firing arbitrators? Why doesn't the NHL publish the data and prove that the arbitration process drives up salaries? Why do you think a list of this years awards is evidence of anything about the arbitration process?

Tom

 

[PecaFan]

A high school kid should be able to see the logical fallacy. Give your head a shake. Think about it. If you cannot see the flaw in your argument, I feel sorry for you. Something went wrong with your education and you will make many, many unnecessary decision making errors in your life.

Good ol' reliable Tom. When backed into a corner, start slinging mud and insults. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is some knuckle dragging uneducated misanthrope.

And by the way, I'm not some kid. From what you've written, I'm easily your fathers age.

In every case, we are looking at a former fringe player who is now a regular, or a former role player who has stepped up to a second line player or a former second liner who now has a first line role. In every case, somebody else lost a job as a regular, a second liner, or a first liner because the number of those jobs is finite.

Give me a break. So guys like Gonchar, Thornton, Hejduk, Gomez, Niedermayer, Aucoin and dozens of others are all just graduating to the next level? Pure hogwash. Those players haven't changed one bit this past year, they're all doing exactly the same jobs as they were before.

1) Take the average arbitration award each year for the past ten years.
2) Take the average NHL salary each year for the past ten years.
3) Calculate which has increased faster.

Of course, since #1 is contained in #2, they're directly related and any comparisons are absolutely meaningless.

You and the NHLPA like to preach that it should all just be what a player and a GM agree to, a so-called "free market". So, why are you supporting a mechanism that interferes with the free market system, and imposes contracts on one side or the other?

Don't answer, that's what we old farts call a rhetorical question. The answer is "because it prematurely inflates players salaries". If players salaries could actually be lowered in arbitration, you would be the first one complaining about how arbitration was unfair, and should be scrapped.