NHL Agent loses certification

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Tom_Benjamin

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Buffaloed said:
I'd never hire anyone to represent me that breached a confidentiality agreement. This goes way beyond the CBA negotiations. The issue is one of basic integrity. I doubt if this guy will ever work in the industry again. When the CBA is settled he can expect to be bankrupted by lawsuits alleging monetary damages caused by his leaking confidential information.

I agree. I don't think Goodenow would have done it during the lockout if he could have avoided it, and I don't think the actual system really matters much. (And I doubt if a suit against the agent can be sustained myself.) The issue is the breach of the confidentiality agreement. That the "secret" revealed wasn't very important is irrelevant. It is an ethical breach and the point of the certification process is to weed out - as much as possible - the unethical.

How dumb is this guy, anyway? He didn't figure he would get caught?

Tom
 

mudcrutch79

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Thing is, he wouldn't have gotten caught if he hadn't been stupid enough to run the Nick Schultz comparison. That was an asinine move on his part. Good point above about David Frost though, the NHLPA seems happy to have him certified, despite a growing track record of very concerning behaviour.

Whoever the poster was who figured this out, congratulations. If this appears in stories and papers without credit, write a letter. Most ingenious.

I wouldn't worry about the agent getting sued for monetary damages though. I can't see how this will actually cost anyone money, given the time at which he revealed it. There has to be a new CBA before anyone goes to arbitration again and I suspect the new arbitration provisions will be very very different. I don't see where the damages are.

I also wouldn't have much of a problem with him breaching this confidentiality agreement. He needs to serve the players he represents-assuming he's a lawyer, that's to whom his interest lies. It is surely in Kolzig's interest, and arguably in Allison's to get the NHL going again. If revealing this can help break the impasse, he has to at least consider doing it. This just reveals again the problems of unionization in industries where the workers have such vastly different interests.
 

PecaFan

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Well, I initially thought the revealing of the SCORE system was no big deal. Turns out I was wrong, what with the draconian measures implemented by anyone discussing the system.

If they're just trying to get rid of the unethical agents, they're going to have to get rid of all of them.
 

nckd

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Tom_Benjamin said:
I agree. I don't think Goodenow would have done it during the lockout if he could have avoided it, and I don't think the actual system really matters much. (And I doubt if a suit against the agent can be sustained myself.) The issue is the breach of the confidentiality agreement. That the "secret" revealed wasn't very important is irrelevant. It is an ethical breach and the point of the certification process is to weed out - as much as possible - the unethical.

How dumb is this guy, anyway? He didn't figure he would get caught?

Tom

Some people are really clueless when it comes to computers, and I guess this guy was one of them. It's not like you'd need heavy surveillance to figure out who this guy was, it sounds like they just checked who was logged in.

I also agree about not hiring someone who breaches confidentiality agreements. It doesn't matter if the information revealed was minor. If you see a lawyer, or a doctor, or anyone who you give confidential personal information to, you expect them to keep it confidential unless you give your permission. Frost is a slimeball, but it's harder to directly connect his brand of slime to specific rule violations. This guy did what an agent should never do if they want to keep having clients.
 

Digger12

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If it really was McBride that took the bullet, I wonder how much Allison and Dafoe knew about it, if at all?

I'd wager they both got phone calls straight away from the NHLPA once their agent was exposed.
 

Buffaloed

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ti-vite said:
This was reported a few weeks ago and Daly brushed it off indicating that the NHL has a similar 'program' available for GMs.

I've seen the GM program. It's a relational database for correlating any stat or set of stats to salary over the previous 5 years. It's not a secret. Anyone could make a similar database using publically available stats. The big deal here is there's a lot of other information on that site that's private, that could undermine the NHLPA's negotiating postion, and the agent gave a reporter access to it. I doubt the NHLPA would have a problem allowing a reporter to access the SCORE system only.
 

smileymcadam

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McBride-Frost

We should all sleep better tonight knowing the NHLPA is keeping it's members safe from bad old Bryant McBride so they can be looked after by fine upstanding certified agents like David Frost. Theres a group that has it priorities straight.

:dunce:
 

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Isn't Bob wonderful.

GabbyDugan said:
Gus Badali has lost his certification as a player agent. The reason given is his involvement in helping to set up the doomed WHA....

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/Sports/2004/11/26/731641.html

The story is written by Steve Simmons...

From the article.
The conflict-of-interest charges against Badali are curious in light of other potential situations that involve the PA. For example, while Badali lost his certification for being involved with a WHA team, PA member and Toronto Maple Leafs goaltender Ed Belfour received no sanction for his ownership participation with the crumbled Dallas franchise.

How can it be conflict for an agent to involve himself with a team, but not for a playing member under contract to an NHL team with ownership in what was supposed to be a competitive league?

And the largest and most disgraceful conflict continues on -- the fact that agents like Badali and McBride lose their certification while a hockey embarrassment like David Frost remains in good status with the NHLPA.

This is Bob Goodenow at his worst. For a man who is quick to point out conflict of interest, he doesn't seem to notice his own.

Frost, banned from three hockey leagues, hasn't been decertified by the NHLPA. Frost once worked as a player birddog for agent Mike Gillis, although Gillis all but denies that relationship.

Gillis is tight with Goodenow, who used to coach minor hockey alongside Frost in Toronto. Frost coached Goodenow's son Joe in what was then the Metro Toronto Hockey League.

This is a conflict of interest that Alan Eagleson couldn't deny, but Goodenow goes after the Badalis and the McBrides instead and typically no one says anything. Not even the people affected.

When asked how he feels about being decertified knowing that Frost remains in the good graces of the PA, Badali said: "I'd rather not comment on that. . . . Only Bob Goodenow can answer if there are different rules for different people."

When asked why no agent speaks out against the inclusion of Frost in their organization, Badali said: "I'm sorry but I don't want to go there."

Badali did say he would re-apply for certification when the NHL is back in business.

"Until then, there's no reason to be certified. I don't see any reason why I won't get back in."

All he needs to do is get banned from a league or two, and he's a sure thing
 

thinkwild

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Badali did say he would re-apply for certification when the NHL is back in business.
"Until then, there's no reason to be certified. I don't see any reason why I won't get back in."
Not so bad.

Agent certification seems a prickly one right right now. If Mcbrides office was responsible for a leak during bargaining of sensitive data, the action seems a reasonable wartime measure to take. Similarly, if an agent has a conflict of interest at this time, and it seems quite different than Belfour having an ownership stake in a pro team, then I guess I can see a logic there.

Frost is more difficult to understand. I dont really see where Goodenows conflict of interest necessarily comes into play. Maybe the rules for decertification dont allow removing a players choice of agent just because you reject his moral character. It is a free market after all. If Frost hasnt been criminally charged yet, whats the reasoning for his decertification - you dont like him? It doesnt seem it would be in Goodenows advantage to have Frost remain certified, perhaps his legal hands are tied on the matter. Or perhaps its the same type of loyalty Clarke shows for Eagleson.

I dont get all the ins and outs, but nor do i see an obvious conspiracy or flaw in the PA's position. Maybe there is something unethical, but its hard to see.
 

SENSible1*

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Similarly, if an agent has a conflict of interest at this time, and it seems quite different than Belfour having an ownership stake in a pro team, then I guess I can see a logic there.

Please explain the logic then.

An agent is de-certified for helping prepare a draft list because it helps the league, but Belfour's putting his money into the same league doesn't help the competition?

I'm awaiting the spin job on this one. It should be a doozy.
 

YellHockey*

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thinkwild said:
Frost is more difficult to understand. I dont really see where Goodenows conflict of interest necessarily comes into play. Maybe the rules for decertification dont allow removing a players choice of agent just because you reject his moral character. It is a free market after all. If Frost hasnt been criminally charged yet, whats the reasoning for his decertification - you dont like him? It doesnt seem it would be in Goodenows advantage to have Frost remain certified, perhaps his legal hands are tied on the matter. Or perhaps its the same type of loyalty Clarke shows for Eagleson.

While I don't think Frost is a particularly upstanding individual, I agree with how can Goodenow just revoke his licence without reason? All we've heard about Frost is mostly innuendos, and the majority of them from Simmons.

It seems like Simmons has to turn everything into a story on Frost. I wonder if Frost cut Simmons' kid from his team or some other thing like that since it is clear that Simmons has a vendetta going against Frost.
 

thinkwild

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Thunderstruck said:
Please explain the logic then.

An agent is de-certified for helping prepare a draft list because it helps the league, but Belfour's putting his money into the same league doesn't help the competition?

Yes, it would seem rather obvious to me. Maybe im missing something.
 

Tom_Benjamin

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Thunderstruck said:
Please explain the logic then.

An agent is de-certified for helping prepare a draft list because it helps the league, but Belfour's putting his money into the same league doesn't help the competition?

I'm awaiting the spin job on this one. It should be a doozy.

What are you talking about? This is a non-issue. McBride was decertified because he broke the NHLPA confidentiality rules, which is a clear ethical breach. It is exactly what the NHLPA is supposed to be doing with their certification process.

Badali can't be both the general manager of a hockey team and a player agent. Mike Barnett was decertified when he became GM of Phoenix. Lacroix was decertified when he became GM of Colorado.

Belfour doesn't have any conflict.

Tom
 

Pepper

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thinkwild said:
I dont get all the ins and outs, but nor do i see an obvious conspiracy or flaw in the PA's position. Maybe there is something unethical, but its hard to see.

lmao, of course you don't see anything wrong with PA or it's actions, you're a fanboy of them.
 

mudcrutch79

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Rich Winter went on the radio in Edmonton in August, and did the exact same thing. He didn't show the reporter the system, but he did acknowledge it's existence and explain that the NHLPA uses it. We on the Oilers board had debated for a long time whether such a system was in place-I'd say that the opinion of those who generally make sense was that such a system did exist. I've read the story that the reporter wrote about McBride, and it doesn't seem to me that the confidentiality breach there was any more significant than what Winter did. If you want to see the thread discussing what Winter told the listeners in the Edmonton area, go to the Oilers board thread discussing Badali. There is a link there to the Winter thread. The 39th post there contains a summary from a pretty credible poster of what Winter said. It includes the following "He also said that the NHLPA have spent considerable money to develop modelling software to analyze the data, so as to use it in arbitration ... "

Where's the difference?
 

YellHockey*

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mudcrutch79 said:
Rich Winter went on the radio in Edmonton in August, and did the exact same thing. He didn't show the reporter the system, but he did acknowledge it's existence and explain that the NHLPA uses it. We on the Oilers board had debated for a long time whether such a system was in place-I'd say that the opinion of those who generally make sense was that such a system did exist. I've read the story that the reporter wrote about McBride, and it doesn't seem to me that the confidentiality breach there was any more significant than what Winter did. If you want to see the thread discussing what Winter told the listeners in the Edmonton area, go to the Oilers board thread discussing Badali. There is a link there to the Winter thread. The 39th post there contains a summary from a pretty credible poster of what Winter said. It includes the following "He also said that the NHLPA have spent considerable money to develop modelling software to analyze the data, so as to use it in arbitration ... "

Where's the difference?

It's one thing to talk about what they're using in general. It's quite another to actual allow someone who isn't authorized to view the system.

I've signed confidentiality agreements with employers. It's one thing for me to say that I'm working on a software that enables other products in my company's portfolio of products. It is quite another for me to show the software to a reporter without company authorization.
 

mudcrutch79

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BlackRedGold said:
It's one thing to talk about what they're using in general. It's quite another to actual allow someone who isn't authorized to view the system.

I've signed confidentiality agreements with employers. It's one thing for me to say that I'm working on a software that enables other products in my company's portfolio of products. It is quite another for me to show the software to a reporter without company authorization.

I don't see the difference. If we assume that the reporter printed everything he knew, then McBride didn't explain how it works, show him the coding, or anything proprietary. He just showed him what it did. Winter told us what it did on the radio. Winter gets no punishment. I wasn't that surprised at anything I read in the article, because I already knew it existed. The line for me seems that it should be at acknowledging it's existence. Once we know it's there, it's easy to figure out what it does-it allows the NHLPA to readily identify cases the players will win.
 

thinkwild

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mudcrutch79 said:
I don't see the difference. If we assume that the reporter printed everything he knew, then McBride didn't explain how it works, show him the coding, or anything proprietary. He just showed him what it did. Winter told us what it did on the radio. Winter gets no punishment. I wasn't that surprised at anything I read in the article, because I already knew it existed. The line for me seems that it should be at acknowledging it's existence. Once we know it's there, it's easy to figure out what it does-it allows the NHLPA to readily identify cases the players will win.

I wouldnt expect the punishment is for letting them see the software itself. How complex could that be? Sort players by age, experience and salary. There's no magic to the software I can imagine. It must have been for releasing agents notes on what their expectations and strategies for negotiations were. Something anyone doing, would recognize as wrong.

It may not have been Mcbride, but someone in his office he will have to take accountability for until charges are made against that person and a reassurance of protocol is determined.
 

mudcrutch79

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thinkwild said:
I wouldnt expect the punishment is for letting them see the software itself. How complex could that be? Sort players by age, experience and salary. There's no magic to the software I can imagine. It must have been for releasing agents notes on what their expectations and strategies for negotiations were.

The only problem is that there's no evidence that he did that. The story certainly doesn't make the claim that they saw notes on what's expected. This tour presumably took place post-lockout, so I can't imagine that there's anything too senstive in there right now. I honestly don't see what the NHLPA was so upset about unless the existence of the system was itself confidential. In which case, Winter breached the certification rules as well.
 

Tom_Benjamin

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mudcrutch79 said:
I don't see the difference. If we assume that the reporter printed everything he knew, then McBride didn't explain how it works, show him the coding, or anything proprietary.

But I don't think this has anything at all to do with it. I knew they had a system. Anybody who used the stats on the NHLPA site knew they had a system for correlating statistics. There is not one statistic on the system that anybody could not get out of the latest NHL guide and record book. It is convenient. That's it. That the NHLPA had a system was not a secret. Telling people that they had a system betrayed nothing.

On the other hand, there is a lot of information on the system about the specific player contracts that is not public. It is not up to McBride to decide Nick Schultz won't mind if the reporter sees the bonus provisions in his contract. It is not up to McBride to decide whether Nick Schultz will mind if the reporter knows what qualifying offer the Wild made to him.

McBride was given access to a system that contains genuinely private information about the players because he is a certified player agent who can use the information to help his clients. In return, he promises to keep that information confidential. He breached that confidence by letting a reporter into the system.

Winter didn't do that. The really stupid thing about McBride is that he knew it was wrong. He wasn't on the record like Winter. He showed the reporter around the system on the condition the reporter not identify him.

Once we know it's there, it's easy to figure out what it does-it allows the NHLPA to readily identify cases the players will win.

How does it do this? I think this is a crazy idea. It does not do anything of the sort. It helps the agent ballpark the player's worth. It gives the agent access to all the details of the contracts of comparables. That's it. NHL teams have access to exactly the same information.

The NHLPA has nothing to do with deciding which players file for arbitration. As far as I am aware, agents never consult with the NHLPA about the specifics of a contract negotiation.

Tom
 

thinkwild

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mudcrutch79 said:
The only problem is that there's no evidence that he did that. The story certainly doesn't make the claim that they saw notes on what's expected. This tour presumably took place post-lockout, so I can't imagine that there's anything too senstive in there right now. I honestly don't see what the NHLPA was so upset about unless the existence of the system was itself confidential. In which case, Winter breached the certification rules as well.

There was some discussion on an earlier thread on The NHLPA Scores system you may find interesting.
 
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