Post-Game Talk: New York Rangers at Ottawa Senators - December 13

[ZiGOODejad]

Show me one Ranger d-man who doesn't look lost and/or looks like he knows what he's doing.

Hint the list is short cause the paper is blank.

 

[Fitzy]

One thing I've observed from the past few weeks is that losing Zibanejad may actually be an even bigger hit to this club than losing McDonagh.

Kreider and Buchnevich have basically been playing by themselves out there when that unit it on the ice.

I think it's time to mix up the D pairings and try something new. See if we can find a combination that works.

 

[Machinehead]

Being a fan of this team is so taxing.

Every effort to bring in better analytics players is a disappointment while bad possession players go elsewhere and suddenly succeed.

There's absolutely no reason this should be happening. On paper, this a better defense than the one they iced in 2013-14 and yet the results are bordering on worse than 15-16.

 

[Machinehead]

One thing I've observed from the past few weeks is that losing Zibanejad may actually be an even bigger hit to this club than losing McDonagh.

Kreider and Buchnevich have basically been playing by themselves out there when that unit it on the ice.

I think it's time to mix up the D pairings and try something new. See if we can find a combination that works.

We've done this 386413279652379460138463280473205986125012 times.

It's time to try something new and find a combination that works behind the bench.

 

[Fitzy]

Being a fan of this team is so taxing.

Every effort to bring in better analytics players is a disappointment while bad possession players go elsewhere and suddenly succeed.

There's absolutely no reason this should be happening. On paper, this a better defense than the one they iced in 2013-14 and yet the results are bordering on worse than 15-16.

I mean, being a fan from 98-2004 was taxing. I'm actually okay with making the playoffs every season. Been a long time since we've had to suffer through a year of pure misery and suckage.

Never been a cup-or-nothing fan myself. I have fond memories and great moments to look back on in the Lundqvist era.

 

[Fitzy]

We've done this 386413279652379460138463280473205986125012 times.

It's time to try something new and find a combination that works behind the bench.

I don't think Lindy Ruff is the issue, and he's been managing the defense.

Forward support is worth considering as a causal factor here. Stepan, for all his flaws, was a nice safety valve. Center is the position that is crucial in the defense and breakout schemes. Zibanejad, Miller, and Hayes are hardly defensive maestros.

 

[Machinehead]

I mean, being a fan from 98-2004 was taxing. I'm actually okay with making the playoffs every season. Been a long time since we've had to suffer through a year of pure misery and suckage.

Never been a cup-or-nothing fan myself. I have fond memories and great moments to look back on in the Lundqvist era.

If we're mediocre, we're mediocre, but I'd prefer to be a mediocre team that loses 2-1.

Constantly giving up 40 shots and horrible goals at horrible times is demoralizing.

 

[Machinehead]

I don't think Lindy Ruff is the issue, and he's been managing the defense.

Forward support is worth considering as a causal factor here. Stepan, for all his flaws, was a nice safety valve. Center is the position that is crucial in the defense and breakout schemes. Zibanejad, Miller, and Hayes are hardly defensive maestros.

The wingers are also not free of blame. They play absolutely no defense in this system.

I could be a defenseman on an NHL team and get a great scoring chance against the Rangers. I'd walk in on Hank untouched before somebody in a Rangers jersey even looks at me.

We have some very solid defensive players at wing, I just don't think it's part of what we do. You know, whatever it is that we do. Outside of the offensive zone, I'm not entirely sure AV knows exactly what we do.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

It doesn't help that McD and Smith are both underachieving greatly.

Skjei, Shatty, Holden and Staal are on par with where they should be based on expectations. McDonagh is definitely hurt, he hasnt' looked right all season. Smith has gotten better but he's still a shell of the player he was last year's playoffs. He fumbles the puck more in single games this season than he did in his entire tenure with the Rangers last season. Truly shows why staying in great shape and training all summer is so important. Lose even a sliver of a step and you're behind the 8 ball all season.

The wingers are also not free of blame. They play absolutely no defense in this system.

I could be a defenseman on an NHL team and get a great scoring chance against the Rangers. I'd walk in on Hank untouched before somebody in a Rangers jersey even looks at me.

We have some very solid defensive players at wing, I just don't think it's part of what we do. You know, whatever it is that we do. Outside of the offensive zone, I'm not entirely sure AV knows exactly what we do.

Yup, the wingers are lost in the D zone. Is it on the players, or the system? Probably a mixture of both. There are 2 wingers on this team that are remotely responsible in the D zone: Fast and Grabner. Zucc has his moments but even he has far too many moments of lapsed coverage.

Idk what else they can do besides bring in a new coach. On paper the D should be better. Team D.


A big part of why our possession stats are always so bad is that major cogs in our offense simply refuse to shoot. Hayes, Miller, Zucc, Buch even Nash and Kreider nowadays. They all look for 2-3 passing options before shooting. Who are the true shoot first forwardds on this team? Grabner and Mika and that's about it.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

I still don't understand why Gorton sat on his hands all summer expecting this piss poor offensive depth to work out somehow during a 82 game season. We're still stuck with Staal-Holden, We've overachieved so far this season. It's going to get ugly in the 2nd half.

Probably didn't want to sink the boat for his era.

 

[Machinehead]

It doesn't help that McD and Smith are both underachieving greatly.

Skjei, Shatty, Holden and Staal are on par with where they should be based on expectations. McDonagh is definitely hurt, he hasnt' looked right all season. Smith has gotten better but he's still a shell of the player he was last year's playoffs. He fumbles the puck more in single games this season than he did in his entire tenure with the Rangers last season. Truly shows why staying in great shape and training all summer is so important. Lose even a sliver of a step and you're behind the 8 ball all season.

I agree on Smith.

Shattenkirk was phenomenal the first six weeks but he's been really poor the past month.

I think Skjei has been abysmal all season but for some reason, Skei could pull out a gun and shoot Lundqvist and nobody would say anything. Homegrown thing, I guess.

 

[Inferno]

Another game we were flat...avs calling card

 

[Machinehead]

Also, Smith was really good tonight outside of one shift, but he keeps having shifts where he basically hands the other team a goal.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

I agree on Smith.

Shattenkirk was phenomenal the first six weeks but he's been really poor the past month.

I think Skjei has been abysmal all season but for some reason, Skei could pull out a gun and shoot Lundqvist and nobody would say anything. Homegrown thing, I guess.

I don't think Skjei has been particularly good, I just think up to expectations. Expected to be 2nd pair LHD and he's a second year guy. He's been up and down. You're right, Skjei-Shatty hasn't been particularly good for a while now. I think AV should try Smith with Skjei again, maybe they can rekindle their chemistry.

 

[Machinehead]

I still don't understand why Gorton sat on his hands all summer expecting this piss poor offensive depth to work out somehow during a 82 game season. We're still stuck with Staal-Holden, We've overachieved so far this season. It's going to get ugly in the 2nd half.

 

[Machinehead]

I don't think Skjei has been particularly good, I just think up to expectations. Expected to be 2nd pair LHD and he's a second year guy. He's been up and down. You're right, Skjei-Shatty hasn't been particularly good for a while now. I think AV should try Smith with Skjei again, maybe they can rekindle their chemistry.

A f***ing three-year-old could tell you Skjei-Shattenkirk is a horrid idea, but AV thinks it's his best comination chemistry-wise.

He's mentally not here with the rest of us.

 

[Deleted member 23124]

I don't think we have a bad set of d-men....it only seems that way because we've got a coach who doesn't use them in a way that makes them effective. You've got to play HIS way or you don't play.

For all his faults, I don't recall anyone complaining about Holden when we got him...it was a welcome sight seeing a dman play a physical game without being penalized needlessly. As the year went on, AV slowly weened neutered him until he was useless. Same with Smith....I don't believe his "summer fun" took the snarl out of his game.

Finally, we haven't had a defensive scheme that worked since AV took over.

 

[Machinehead]

JT Miller has been a train wreck for weeks.

If we're talking about doing the right thing in the defensive zone, JT miller has been a train wreck for 24 years.

 

[Machinehead]

I don't think we have a bad set of d-men....it only seems that way because we've got a coach who doesn't use them in a way that makes them effective. You've got to play HIS way or you don't play.

For all his faults, I don't recall anyone complaining about Holden when we got him...it was a welcome sight seeing a dman play a physical game without being penalized needlessly. As the year went on, AV slowly weened neutered him until he was useless. Same with Smith....I don't believe his "summer fun" took the snarl out of his game.

Finally, we haven't had a defensive scheme that worked since AV took over.

Except 13-14 but that team still clearly had Torts influence.

And like I said yesterday, yes Torts is a prick and his teams can be boring, but Torts' worst analytics teams absolutely blow the 16-18 Rangers out of the water.

The 11-12 Rangers were famous for being a turtle team and they looked like the 13-14 Kings compared to what we have now.

 

[aufheben]

One thing I've observed from the past few weeks is that losing Zibanejad may actually be an even bigger hit to this club than losing McDonagh.

Kreider and Buchnevich have basically been playing by themselves out there when that unit it on the ice.

I think it's time to mix up the D pairings and try something new. See if we can find a combination that works.

Agreed, and our best player this calendar year IMO.

As for this game, I'd rather forget it than analyze it.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

I don't think we have a bad set of d-men....it only seems that way because we've got a coach who doesn't use them in a way that makes them effective. You've got to play HIS way or you don't play.

For all his faults, I don't recall anyone complaining about Holden when we got him...it was a welcome sight seeing a dman play a physical game without being penalized needlessly. As the year went on, AV slowly weened neutered him until he was useless. Same with Smith....I don't believe his "summer fun" took the snarl out of his game.

Finally, we haven't had a defensive scheme that worked since AV took over.

2014 playoffs was the closest we've had to good defensive play but that's not because of AV's system. It was because we had peak McDonagh with a still ok Girardi, still good Staal with awesome Anton and Kevin Klein anchoring the 3rd pair. The MAIN thing with that team though was their possession game was strong, which mitigates time spent in the D zone.

Sometimes I think about why that was and why it can't be replicated. I think it all comes down to having a player on each line who could reliably forecheck and retrieve the puck on a consistent basis. Let's compare the forward groups from 2014 - Now:

2014:
Kreider-Stepan-Nash
MSL-Richards-Hagelin
Pouliot-Brassard-Zuccarello
Dorsett-Moore-Boyle


Each of these lines had a great forechecker and puck retriever on it. Kreider, Hagelin, Pouliot and Dorsett/Boyle.

Even the 2nd best forechecker on these lines was better at forechecking and retrieving the puck than the best options on each line on our current roster. Nash (2104 version), MSL, Zucc and Boyle. All better forecheckers and puck retrievers than the best option on each line now (except for Kreider). The best options on each line now are Kreider (still good), Zucc (shouldn't be his role), Fast (good 3rd/4th line level but not above that) and Vesey (LOL).

For the team now, where are out puck retrievers outside of Kreider? Grabner is a good goal scorer and his speed opens up the ice, but he's not a particularly consistent forechecker or puck retriever. Fast is okay at retrieving the puck, but not at the level of a Hagelin or even a Pouliot.

So I look at our lines now and it's no surprise to me that our 1 line that can consistently generate offense, KZB, is the one line that has a player who can consistently retrieve the puck in the offensive zone.

This is why the past few seasons dumping the puck in has seemed like a useless strategy. Nobody can retrieve it to generate offense. We dump it in and can't reliably retrieve it but even if we do retrieve it, or even carry it in we then pass the puck around until we either generate a high quality scoring chance OR we don't get any shots and lose the puck and it goes the other way.

This forward group is built to generate high quality chances, which they do. However, they are not built to perform in any other capacity. When those chances aren't coming and nothing is working and things are clogged up the forward group is simply incapable of pivoting to generate offense through other tactics.

To me reliable puck retrieval is the single biggest reason that this team (and 2016 and 2017 teams) have had abhorrent possession stats and are inconsistent at being able to generate shots and offense.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Not having Z-bad hurts a lot.

 

[DanielBrassard]

2014 playoffs was the closest we've had to good defensive play but that's not because of AV's system. It was because we had peak McDonagh with a still ok Girardi, still good Staal with awesome Anton and Kevin Klein anchoring the 3rd pair. The MAIN thing with that team though was their possession game was strong, which mitigates time spent in the D zone.

Sometimes I think about why that was and why it can't be replicated. I think it all comes down to having a player on each line who could reliably forecheck and retrieve the puck on a consistent basis. Let's compare the forward groups from 2014 - Now:

2014:
Kreider-Stepan-Nash
MSL-Richards-Hagelin
Pouliot-Brassard-Zuccarello
Dorsett-Moore-Boyle


Each of these lines had a great forechecker and puck retriever on it. Kreider, Hagelin, Pouliot and Dorsett/Boyle.

Even the 2nd best forechecker on these lines was better at forechecking and retrieving the puck than the best options on each line on our current roster. Nash (2104 version), MSL, Zucc and Boyle. All better forecheckers and puck retrievers than the best option on each line now (except for Kreider). The best options on each line now are Kreider (still good), Zucc (shouldn't be his role), Fast (good 3rd/4th line level but not above that) and Vesey (LOL).

For the team now, where are out puck retrievers outside of Kreider? Grabner is a good goal scorer and his speed opens up the ice, but he's not a particularly consistent forechecker or puck retriever. Fast is okay at retrieving the puck, but not at the level of a Hagelin or even a Pouliot.

So I look at our lines now and it's no surprise to me that our 1 line that can consistently generate offense, KZB, is the one line that has a player who can consistently retrieve the puck in the offensive zone.

This is why the past few seasons dumping the puck in has seemed like a useless strategy. Nobody can retrieve it to generate offense. We dump it in and can't reliably retrieve it but even if we do retrieve it, or even carry it in we then pass the puck around until we either generate a high quality scoring chance OR we don't get any shots and lose the puck and it goes the other way.

This forward group is built to generate high quality chances, which they do. However, they are not built to perform in any other capacity. When those chances aren't coming and nothing is working and things are clogged up the forward group is simply incapable of pivoting to generate offense through other tactics.

To me reliable puck retrieval is the single biggest reason that this team (and 2016 and 2017 teams) have had abhorrent possession stats and are inconsistent at being able to generate shots and offense.

I wish I could like this post a million times. The other thing is we have gone from a team that while they had a ton of speed, still played a controlled game. It seems like now they rely so much on chipping pucks, or flipping pucks into an area to create footraces, along with the stretch pass which doesn't make sense to me considering their footspeed is not there like it used to be. This to me is not a fast team at all. And like you said, puck retrieval is beyond bad, their overreliance on quick shifts kills forechecking opportunities, their puck support is not there, and they collapse so deep in the defensive zone that they can never cut off pucks going to the point. It's tiring to watch.

 

[Machinehead]

Agreed, and our best player this calendar year IMO.

As for this game, I'd rather forget it than analyze it.

Until the same thing happens in two days.

 

[mrjiggyfly]

After 31 games, we find the defendant, Barry Trotz, Not Guilty of underestimating the value of Kevin Shattenkirk. Also, no Zibanejad is huge