New NHL Historical Data - Situational scoring

[Canadiens1958]

Except for maybe Eddie Shore...we really don't know. Weiland's bizarre drop-off in PP scoring going from Detroit to Boston is another piece of evidence against those Boston numbers. I think Eddie might well have been better than Ebbie on the PP, but we can't tell that from the data (nor can we rule it out).

Based on the numbers (with the additional difficulty of not knowing how much F Goodfellow played at this time in his career...he had such an interesting career), Goodfellow looks to have been an exceptional scorer on the PP relative even to other offensive D. It's also far from certain, imo, that Shore would have outscored him in this period. Goodfellow appears to have been really...good, on the PP.

No, all it shows is that Weiland was streaky, easy to adjust to throughout his career.

Cooney Weiland Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Major drop-off after leading the NHL in scoring in 1929-30. For a center he had goal scoring phases and playmaking phases.

Are we to accept Boston data at ES for Weiland but question them on the PP?

If anything the Boston and Detroit data point to a bigger issue
How long did it take for coaches from the era to adapt defensively to new tactics or imitate offensive strategies Granted both aspects require appropriate players since not all teams had a Goodfellow or a Shore. But these overriding issues remain.

Also the early PP were rarely sustainable. Rangers with Camille Henry and were unique for a season.

 

[Sturminator]

Are we to accept Boston data at ES for Weiland but question them on the PP?

Not sure you actually understand overpass' objection. I don't think anyone disputes the overall scoring numbers...just which goals are assigned to the power play by the Boston scorers.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Not sure you actually understand overpass' objection. I don't think anyone disputes the overall scoring numbers...just which goals are assigned to the power play by the Boston scorers.

Understand it better than you. Simplifying for you. A streaky or aging player is never selectively streaky or aging.Never situationally or team influenced.

Yet 1929-30, Weiland's outlier season sawmuch higherPIMs per team in a 44 game not 48 game RS. As the scoring leader the expectation would be that PP scoring would benefit Weiland especially since no evidence exists that the Bruins kept Weiland off the PP.

As for the Weiland move back to Boston from Detroit for the 1935-36 season. Weiland went from a team that scored 127 RS goals - he was 3rd in scoring, to a team that scored 92 RS goals.

Just evidence that it was a team scoring issue and not a data issue that was at the root of Weiland's PP performance.

Considering that Weiland was effectively traded for Marty Barry while Buswell and Giroux were secondary pieces, the impact on the scoring is interesting.

Detroit with Barry was a net -3,while Boston with Weiland was a net -37. Seems like Weiland in his second tenure in Boston declined at a steady pace offensively whether at ES or on the PP. If anything the data at least points in this direction.

 

[Sturminator]

Understand it better than you. Simplifying for you.

Heh...if you actually understood it, this:

Are we to accept Boston data at ES for Weiland but question them on the PP?

...would be a nonsensical statement. What does that statement even mean? It belies an apparently complete misunderstanding of why overpass is criticizing the Boston special teams data, and what he is criticizing about it.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Heh...if you actually understood it, this:

...would be a nonsensical statement. What does that statement even mean? It belies an apparently complete misunderstanding of why overpass is criticizing the Boston special teams data, and what he is criticizing about it.

Simply you have not done appropriate background research to contribute.

A PP then and know requires a motor of a QB,also continuity.
Between 1933-34 and 1937-38 Shore was a distant 26th in total assists in the NHL:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...sists&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=assists

Bruins also had a constant changeover at center during this period. Stewart,Barry, Weiland, adding Cowley and Schmidt later.

Detroit by comparison had a solid relatively fixed core.

Factor in that the Bruins floated between 3rd and 6th in GF during a period of low PIMs, listed previously, the conditions for a strong Bruins PP playing on a small home rink did not exist. So the data does not have to be tainted. It may be but you have not moved the needle in that direction, especially introducing Weiland.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Checking newspaper reports from 1933-34 onwards to get a feel for the PP alignments, player deployments and strategies used by the various teams.Very hit and miss since you are relying on the perceptions of various reporters, definitions of what is newsworthy and the rules of the day. Prime example is that the icing rule which did not exist until 1937 when it was passed with a exception for the PK.

At the same, it seems that Boston used to get into icing battles.In passing example at Boston in 1931 the NYA protecting a 3-2 lead,iced the puck over 50 times.

This raises two questions. To what extent were penalties suppressed in such games - eliminating PP opportunities. Also the question has to asked about Boston's puck possession skills and strategies. Also were faceoff skills and strategies developed or factors.

Finally overlooked to date is the issue of PK strategies and units.

 

[Canadiens1958]

If we believe the all-star voting, Ebbie Goodfellow switched to D starting in 1933-34. As a defenseman, this would make him by far the best powerplay scorer of his era. Anecdotally, this jives with much of what we know about him...that he was part of the great Red Wings PP (which otherwise featured four forwards), and that he was known for having had one of the hardest shots in the league.

Or do you know something about Goodfellow's usage on those units that I do not?

Simple verification.
November 26,1933 Goodfellow started at center:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

January 11, 1934 Goodfellow started on defence:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Likewise January 18, 1934, against the Maroons,both times:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

January 28,1934, Goodfellow is listed as a sub;

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Has one of three assists on the 3rd Detroit goal. Very rare three assist goal. In the story the goal is described as scored during a Red Wing PP. Interesting since the three assists would point to a puck movement approach to the PP.

March 1,1934 against Maroons. Goodfellow is listed as a sub:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Two interesting details. Game story features a mention of the Wings passing attack not working. Reason(s) not given.

Two third period goals with Red Wings down 3-0 are the result of the Wings five man attack, not a PP but an attack. One worked but then they were caught up the ice for the 4-1 goal.

March 18, 1934, against the Canadiens, Goodfellow listed as a sub, one of three assists on Detroit's only goal, clearly described as a PP.

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

So we have a better understanding about Goodfellow's usage, the Detroit PP and their five man attack offence.

 

[Canadiens1958]

November 11, 1933. Start of the season Boston 2,Montreal 3.

It seems clear from The Gazette story that the Maroons scored 2 PP goals on the same PP at the end of the 2nd period, starting the 3rd period to tie the game at 2-2:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Yet on the recently released NHL data:

Boston Bruins - Montreal Maroons - November 11th, 1933

It is far from clear that these two goals were PP goals.

Two points. The issue does not seem rink specific. So we have to look for other reasons.

Was the data transcribed respecting the definitions and norms of the day or was it transcribed using modern definitions and norms?

Is it possible to get an actual copy of the game sheet for March 11, 1933, Boston 2 and Montreal Maroons 3?

In many instances the official data, newspaper stories and published game summaries offer triple confirmation. Rebound assists were not awarded in 1933-34. Yet the game stories mention goals scored on rebounds, the game summaries list the goalin the same paper as unassisted and the official NHL data confirms the unassisted goal.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Further explorations of the 1933-34 NHL season have uncovered the following data. Seems that the Boston Garden had a wire mesh with unpredictable results. Bruins exploited it on their PP with Eddie Shore driving the puck at the mesh looking for rebounds:

December 5, 1933 game against the Canadiens produced a PP goal by Marty Barry:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Shore was not awarded a rebound assist.

The Americans at times featured a four man attack, leaving themselves vulnerable to a counter attack:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Behind late in a game they used a five forward offence, but were vulnerable.

November 28,1933, Canadiens vs Maroons. The impact of Man advantage situationsis recognized in the game story,The Canadiens goal on the PP is described,as is a fight involving Lorne Chabot.Also the Canadiens strategy of pulling the goalie late in the game is described:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Interesting that the PP goal is recognized by the Official NHL data: Montreal Maroons - Montréal Canadiens - November 28th, 1933

However the Haynes goal is not referred to as a PP goal in the game story.

 

[Canadiens1958]

December 5, 1933, the NHL announces three in season rule changes. Including an increase in the size of the goal crease to 8' x 5'. This was done to facilitate the life of the goalie:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Important factor in the structure of the PP and the PK.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Cooney Weiland. Little importance in the grand scheme. Trade from Detroit to Boston .But how did Weiland get to Detroit and why?

1932-33 season NHL introduced the original Salary Cap. Weiland was traded to Ottawa by boston. 1933-34 Salary Cap lowered, Weiland holds out,not performing. Traded to Detroit less than 10 games into the season for Carl Voss and cash.

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Trade allows Detroit very shallow on defence to move Goodfellow back to defence, giving one of their best players much more ice time.

1933-34 Detroit Red Wings Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

July 11,1935 trade of Weiland and Buswell from Detroit to Boston for Marty Barry and Art Giroux produced a slight hockey age advantage for Detroit and a roster spot for Syd Howe.

Weiland's scoring was trending downhill in general.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Continuing our work on the PP / PK situation during the 1933-34 season, by looking at the playoffs.

Starting with series between Detroit and Toronto. The reporting by Vern DeGeer in the Border Cities Star is very detailed:

The Border Cities Star - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Both teams, favoured five forward PP units. Only teams during the season to have clearly defined PP strategies and players.

Detroit: Aurie, Lewis, Weiland, Goodfellow, (Carson -a defenceman replacing the injured Johnny Sorrell). Sorrell returned later in the series.Goodfellow had been moved back to center for the playoffs.

Toronto: Cotton, Doraty, Blair, with Primeau and Charlie Conacher on the points. Learn later in the series that Busher Jackson was playing injured.

Comments.

Not comfortable calling Detroit's PP a five forward effort given Goodfellow's shifting back and forth between C and D. Moves seem to be dictated by the opposition.

The Toronto PP is similar to the post WWII PP they ran. Max Bentley in the QB role that Primeau played in 1933-34.

Weiland was the Detroit QB on the PP, Goodfellow the shooter.Conacher was the shooter on the Toronto PP.

Also in game one and throughout we get a picture of each team's PK.

Toronto PK. Horner, Clancy, Boll,Kilrea or Horner, Day, Kilrea, Cotton. Clancy was hurt, played thru. Horner, probably was the slot presence.

Detroit PK. Weiland, Graham, Buswell, Goodfellow or Lewis, Aurie, Graham, Buswell. The first combination may be viewed as the original,2 d-men, forward, swingman PK.

 

[Canadiens1958]

The 1933-34 semis between Detroit and Toronto was a best of five affair, Detroit winning in five. The other three series leading to the final were two games,total goals.

Short statistical overview.

Detroit 11 GF, 5 PPG, 45 PIMs assessed.
Toronto 12 GF, 7 PPG, 67 PIMs assessed.

Effectively in the series Toronto had the better PP and PK

Starting with game 3 a playoff hockey summary was introduced by the Border City Star:

The Border Cities Star - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

The data dovetails with the just released NHL data:

Schedule | Mar 20, 1934 ET

 

[Killion]

The 1933-34 semis between Detroit and Toronto was a best of five affair, Detroit winning in five. The other three series leading to the final were two games,total goals.

Short statistical overview.

Detroit 11 GF, 5 PPG, 45 PIMs assessed.
Toronto 12 GF, 7 PPG, 67 PIMs assessed.

Effectively in the series Toronto had the better PP and PK

Starting with game 3 a playoff hockey summary was introduced by the Border City Star:

The Border Cities Star - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

The data dovetails with the just released NHL data:

Schedule | Mar 20, 1934 ET

Very interesting. Its usually Special Teams & Goaltending that wins Cups..... Gotta love those old newspaper accounts uh?.... Nice work on the fact checking C58..... NHL's done a decent job but for the odd error really.