NBA sets attendance record
- Thread starter Cawz
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Jaded-Fan
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....... but, but but . . . the glamor team, the Lakers, did not even make the playoffs this year. I wonder what that does to the arguments of those who say that we need to ensure that the stars all go to the big markets. Where is that biggest up and coming star in the NBA? Oh yeah, that bastion of the stars, Cleveland.
True, there are vast differences between the NBA and the NHL, but this at least is somewhat of an argument that allowing a pretty even playing field with a Cap will not impede growth, and in fact does the opposite. The real growth is not in big markets like LA and NY where you have so many people that you could sell tickets no matter what happens, but your mid-markets and below where you have lots of room for growth if you give the fans hope for their teams at least having a chance given good management.
True, there are vast differences between the NBA and the NHL, but this at least is somewhat of an argument that allowing a pretty even playing field with a Cap will not impede growth, and in fact does the opposite. The real growth is not in big markets like LA and NY where you have so many people that you could sell tickets no matter what happens, but your mid-markets and below where you have lots of room for growth if you give the fans hope for their teams at least having a chance given good management.
problem is the hockey market and basketball market in LA are different, you can't really compare the 2
Cawz
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Ha, I just realized, both LA teams and the Knicks failed to make the playoffs. So NY and LA are 0-3. That goes against what a lot of people were saying about the "big markets" and "interest in the league" correlation.Jaded-Fan said:
rekrul
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jaws
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Jaded-Fan said:
Hold on a sec. Are you saying that, because the Lakers and Knicks didn't make the playoffs and the growth of middle markets, a salary cap is to thank? Man, you are way off.
The Eastern Conference is a complete joke. You got Miami and Detroit...and then head down to Chicago and Boston, who are 12 and 14 games behind Miami. This isn't growth, its a joke. Miami and Detroit are far and away the top teams and barring injury, they're automatically in the final.
In the West, you got Pheonix, Dallas, and San Antonio who are bunched up close to first, and then Seattle, 10 games back. Either Pheonix, Dallas, or San Antonio are basically guaranteed to go all the way.
All the others just get in because 8 teams in each Conference make the playoffs. These other teams have virtually no chance of winning it at all. Looking at the past winners of the NBA Championship, only 7 teams have won the hole thing since 1982: LA, Philly, Boston, Detroit, Chicago, Houston, and San Antonio. With the exception of San Antonio, all are huge markets. Where is the level playing field? Where is the growth? Where is the parity?
Worse yet, thanks to the cap, good luck getting bad teams good again. Can anyone even remember when the Clippers were good? Or Golden State? Or Atlanta? These teams suck and will continue to suck, unless they get someone like LeBron who, despite a cap, is even today rumoured to being leaving soon, and even with him, Cleveland still couldn't make the playoffs. How about the Grizzles, or even the Raptors, who are so stuck in the hole, they may fold in a few years down the road because they still cannot keep guys in the Big T.O.
A cap either does nothing to create a level playing field, or it makes it that much worse, and the same thing will happen if the NHL gets its way.
Jaded-Fan
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A Cap does not create parity or mediocrity, never said that it did. What it does do is give every fan of every team legitimate hope that with some luck, some good management, they can win, and even win it all. Hope grows a sport, not everyone with equal records. So yes, seeing NY and LA out this year, and Cleveland with the star player sends a clear strong message that every fan matters, and yes, I think that is a huge factor in a sport's growth and success. No coincidence at all that the NFL and NBA, two capped leagues, are by far the teams with the brightest presents and futures.
nyrmessier011
Registered User
The NBA is a joke no matter how many fans they bring in. Period.
I would never compare the NHL to the NBA, even if the NBA brings in more revenue.
I would never compare the NHL to the NBA, even if the NBA brings in more revenue.
Dr Love
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Doubt it had anything to do with hockey, especially since you could attend every home game of your local NHL and NBA team and not miss one team playing because you were at the other's game. Lots of movement of big name stars this year in the NBA... Shaq, Tracy McGrady in the offseason, Chris Webber, Vince Carter; Phoenix, Washington, and Chicago playing very well and other stuff... lots going on in the NBA.Cawz said:
Cawz said:
I have to say that due to the lack of hockey this year, i have been forced to watch both baseball and basketball out of shear boredom. I'm from Denver, and to see a basketball team in Denver do well is something that i have never seen in my life... so that has distracted me a bit. and when the yankees played the sox in the world series, i watched that just to understand what everyone was talking about in my classes. both experiences watching sports that were not hockey made me realize how much i miss hockey. i remember specifically thinking when i was watching a basketball game this year, "i'm watching basketball... not hockey... things have definitely changed."
I miss hockey.
jaws
Registered User
Jaded-Fan said:
Hope? How is having 7 teams win the Championship every year since 1982 give fans any hope at all? If this year, you have 5 teams that are far and away better than anyone else, how does this provide hope, anymore so than any other league, with or without a cap?
Cleveland has their star because they got him in the draft lottery, the cap has nothing to do with it. LA is out because they lost Shaq and have no one else other than Kobe. And the Knicks just stink. How is this caused by a cap? You got the same thing in the NHL with the Rangers missing the playoffs, in a non-cap league, so how does this prove how great a cap is?
Something should also be pointed out here. Despite having a cap, both the NBA and the NFL still have a huge gap between the rich and the richer.
In the NBA, the Knicks payrole is the highest this year at about $94 million, while Charlotte has the lowest at about $23 million.
In the NFL, in 2003, New Orleans had the highest payrole at about $95 million, while Cleveland had the lowest at about $53 million.
Having the biggest gap is baseball, as this year the Yankees having a ridiculous payrole of about $208 million, and Tampa at the lowest with about $29 million.
In the NHL, in 2004, you have Detroit at the top with about $77 million and Nashville with the lowest at about $21 million. The gap between the two is much smaller than that of the NBA by the by.
Also, interesting to note, neither the Knicks, nor Charlotte made the playoffs in the NBA. Nor did New Orleans or Cleveland in the NFL. The Yankees will more than likely be in while Tampa will continue to suck, and if we go by last year, the Yanks were in, the D-Backs were out. But interesting, in the NHL, both teams, Detroit and Nashville, made the playoffs, the only league out of all 4 that had both teams of the highest and lowest payroles to make the playoffs. So which league offers more hope?
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/salaries/index.htm
Sotnos
Registered User
Well, that's always true. However, if we're talking about the disposable income factor, would people spend their money to go to a b-ball game since they couldn't go to a hockey game? I wouldn't (not that I have a b-ball team around here), but I wonder if a lot of people would.Dr Love said:
I heard about the attendance record this morning on the radio and wondered the same thing Cawz, great minds think alike and all that!
Dr Love
Registered User
Well, if you can afford to go to one a good deal of the time, then money isn't a problem.Sotnos said:Well, that's always true. However, if we're talking about the disposable income factor, would people spend their money to go to a b-ball game since they couldn't go to a hockey game? I wouldn't (not that I have a b-ball team around here), but I wonder if a lot of people would.
I heard about the attendance record this morning on the radio and wondered the same thing Cawz, great minds think alike and all that!
In all seriousness though, I don't think that is a big factor. 264 more people per game went, and one third of the league is in cities that don't have NHL teams. Did 2/3rds of the league, get that many more people? I doubt it.
Also I found this. I doubt this is the only occurance.
Look at these numbers. The top ten in attendance are the defending champs, resurging Bulls, Shaq, LeBron... which backs my point. Sure, some of it is people who were going to hockey games going to more basketball games, but I think most of it is player movement and some bad teams in good markets getting good again.
Jaded-Fan said:
If hope grows a sport than you should not be using the NBA to support your argument. Unless you have one of the top 5 or 10 players in the league, you have no hope at all. The NBA is barely a capped league, look how much the Knicks spend...plus with all the cap exceptions and all that stuff, it's barely even a cap.
Not to mention, you can apply the same argument to the NHL and you can see it just doesn't work. There was plenty of hope going into this season in a lot of different cities...including Tampa defending their championship. And, much like the NBA, NY and LA were probably going to suck. In the NHL a lot of small markets have had success over the last couple of years and a lot of stars play in small markets...yet that hasn't helped the NHL grow one bit has it?
Cawz
Registered User
Careful, youre calling yourself crazy if we think alike…Sotnos said:Well, that's always true. However, if we're talking about the disposable income factor, would people spend their money to go to a b-ball game since they couldn't go to a hockey game? I wouldn't (not that I have a b-ball team around here), but I wonder if a lot of people would.
I heard about the attendance record this morning on the radio and wondered the same thing Cawz, great minds think alike and all that!
I think the NBA numbers are due to a bunch of factors. The kids are ripping it up (Staudameyer (sp) on the Suns, James on and Cavs, Mellow in Denver, Bosh in T-oh…), plus the 2 front runners for the MVP are on new teams (Shaq and Nash), which always brings in rejuvenated interest.
But I, for one, watched more bball this year due to no hockey, so I assume that should be the case with some people (any sport is better to watch than the Bachelor)
Jaded-Fan
Registered User
nyr7andcounting said:
There are other factors at work, and yes comparing sports is never an exact things. The NHL has had many factors holding them down, mostly the trap and boring hockey. They seem to be addressing that problem. Hockey also was creeping toward definate haves and have nots which would have further erroded the sport, they seem to be addressing that before it truly dampened hope rather than when they were forced kicking and screaming to do so like baseball has done, continues to do. Baseball is a good lesson on where hockey could have gone though.
But my comments were solely to show those who said that you need to assure that the big markets always win, that by loose analogy the NBA has had that not happen this year and not a single season ticket was lost in the big markets and smaller markets, where there can be growth, have seen growth. I agree the cap in the NBA is not c lose to a hard one, but it does work enough that every team, every market, can not blame economics for failure. That is hope.
PecaFan
Registered User
jaws said:
The point you're missing is that the NBA doesn't really have a cap, because it has so many loopholes and exceptions. Teams spend massively, buy up the good players, lose their stars to the "big lights", exactly what happens in a non-cap system.
I don't know of a single person who's ever said the NHL should adopt the NBA system.
The NFL is the best example (and perhaps the only one) of a true "cap". And time has shown that money is basically irrelevant in who wins, who makes the playoffs, and who loses. It's how well the teams are run.
Which is exactly how it should be.
Jaded-Fan said:
I agree that hockey has the best competitive balance of the 4 sports. There wasnt definite have and have nots like the others. There was decade of great teams that had all built themselves up through the draft. Using their brains, they became very good and made a lot of money. Remember that Colorado was a once failed market that was considered small market when the Rangers made the Sakic offer sheet. Every time someone calls them big market, they make the players case. Small market, and win, and you become a money maker.
What was happening was a definite changing of the guard and a new decade of greatness was emerging. Colorado, Dallas, Detroit and St Louise were all on the downslide. A lot of new small market teams were coming to the fore. Something not happening in the NBA.
I dont think we were saying you have to assure big markets can win. We were saying the owners wanted that, because it wasnt happening. How you can blindly look at all the teams in the NBA and NFL with no hope but suggest because there is a cap the fans still have hope because they have financial equality is amazing.
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PecaFan said:
That is simply a startling perspective. You dont know of a single person who supported an NBA type system? You have to be kidding me? It was the preferred position on these boards last summer before Bettman told everyone they didnt think that.
What you are missing is that the NBA does have a hard cap. They have linkage. The cap is not a cap, just a luxury tax bracket, but at the end of the year they add up revenues and costs and use the escrow to even it out. Just like the NFL. A leaguewide cap. As if it was one uniform company that can run loss leaders in one market to capitalize off another. Both the NFL and NBA systems are chock full of loopholes that allow for far wider payroll disparities than in the NHL. Both the NFL and NBA spend massively to buy up the good players as small markets lose their stars to the big lights. That what happens in a cap system. Money is totally relevant to who wins.
On a somewhat related topic, did anyone catch the clips of the conference last week with Bettman, Stern and Taglibue? I sort of caught it once. There was a funny exchange which went something like this iirc.
Stern was saying how Bettman still allows fighting in the league.
Bettman says, when was the last time you caught a hockey game?
Stern says, well certainly not this year.
Oooh, good shot. Bettmans weasley little lawyer face screws up as he thinks of a comeback, looking a little shocked that his mentor gave him a shot like that. Then he comes up with, well we'll see where you'll be next fall with your labour troubles.
Stern replies, Touché.
Im paraphrasing loosely obviously. I thought it was pretty funny. But thought it was a pretty funny shot by Bettman.Will hockey get its CBA before basketball? Pretty tough on unrelated arena revenues if both leagues shut down.
Stern was saying how Bettman still allows fighting in the league.
Bettman says, when was the last time you caught a hockey game?
Stern says, well certainly not this year.
Oooh, good shot. Bettmans weasley little lawyer face screws up as he thinks of a comeback, looking a little shocked that his mentor gave him a shot like that. Then he comes up with, well we'll see where you'll be next fall with your labour troubles.
Stern replies, Touché.
Im paraphrasing loosely obviously. I thought it was pretty funny. But thought it was a pretty funny shot by Bettman.Will hockey get its CBA before basketball? Pretty tough on unrelated arena revenues if both leagues shut down.
PecaFan
Registered User
thinkwild said:
Yes, many people were arguing for soft caps, luxury taxes, etc. And surely you understand the difference between that and the NBA system, which has that along with massive loopholes such as the Bird exception, mid level exceptions, traded player exceptions, buyouts, trade limitations, increased free agency, and a hundred other things.
As I said, no one was asking for that.
They may have linkage, but they *do not* have a hard cap. It's a soft cap, and because of all those exceptions, the cap is almost always exceeded by every single team, and the players end up with more of the Basketball Related Income than in the CBA.
PecaFan said:
Fans here wanted Franchise player exemptions, homegrown caps, 25% buyouts or better just no guarantee at all, limitations on teams ability to trade up, free agency at 27, and a hundred other things. Sounds like they wanted a cap. In fact I remember the uproar when Daly said he would negotiate a basketball system, and everyone was on the players for not doing it.
But of course Daly knew what the fans didnt. The basketball system had cost certainty.
Linkage is what makes it a hard cap. Without linkage, a cap is just a luxury tax threshold. With linkage and escrow, any extra of the bri the players get is clawed back. Well a formula relating it anyway.
The cap in basketball is just a luxury tax threshold. The "Cap" is the linkage.
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