Move any of modern top defensemen back to 70s

[Kshahdoo]

Could they be as good as Orr with their modern skill and play?

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[Howie Hodge]

Any players who were moved back 40 years or more would excel hypothetically.

Evolution of training and the athlete's.....

It's just getting them back in time that's in question....

(And do they get to use modern equipment?)

 

[JackSlater]

Does the player have to use the same equipment as Orr did? Play shifts as long as Orr did? Deal with the same strategies and reffing as Orr did? If so, then I expect that any current defenceman would struggle greatly if dropped in the early 1970s.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Could they be as good as Orr with their modern skill and play?

none, zero, zilch, nada, nil

 

[Killion]

Could they be as good as Orr with their modern skill and play?

Ok. Now, if Orr hadnt come alomg & changed the game to the extent that he did.... which likely wouldve also meant that Alan Eagleson doesnt cut the same swath through the NHL & wield as much influence & power as he did ergo there may may not have been a Summit Series nor any Canada Cups thus beginning the changes in the game those events wrought.... the results of which we began to see beginning with the Hull line of the WHA, Gretzkys's arrival & all that followed through present day....

The "Rushing Defenceman" wasnt anything new when Orr came along however he took it to a whole new level. You had Eddie Shore followed by Doug Harvey, Red Kelly & Pierre Pilote. Tim Horton as well however his injuries from the Gadsby hit pretty much nullified his lateral speed and so he wasnt anywhere nearly as mobile as Orr amongst other shortcomings. You also had Carl Brewer however he had brakes installed by Imlach just as did every other naturally rushing defenceman though with the few exceptions noted.

Brad Park "copied" Orr's game, so no Orr, does Park "gamble" as much as he did? Does Denis Potvin? Who during that period, what Defenceman during the twilight years of the 06 era & into the 70's when Expansion & the creation of the WHA combined with international play against the only other hockey super power in the Soviet Union hastens, speeds up the acceptance & development of the Rushing Defenceman? Does Paul Coffey come along as he did or does he play a much more conservative stay-at-home game as was the dictate of the earlier eras? Or maybe he's converted to Forward full time?

There is only one original, one Bobby Orr. Everything else is a Xerox. A faded copy, not as complete. If not for Orr entirely possible if not probable that while Rushing Defencemen would have been integrated eventually, a slower process, they may not have been given the total freedom some were, have been & still are, actually encouraged. Puck carrying is discouraged, has been since the late DPE, first Lockout. You just wont see a Defenceman (nor even a Defensive Forward much, all Dump & Trap, Shot Blocking) ragging the puck like Orr or whomever that followed on the PK, much of anything in the way of end-end single handed rushes. Quick passing game. Far less time & space. Short shift sprinters, even the Defensive pairings. Much more fully integrated system hockey. Disciplined. Micro-managed.

So sure, its entirely possible lightning strikes twice, three or even four times in the same spot despite the generally accepted rule of nature that it doesnt. Alien's intervening, Hybrid or "Hubrid" program with which most are Im sure familiar huh? That'd do the trick... Anyhoo... With advancements in skating & skate technology, training, nutrition, on & on, entirely possible the game develops along a different line in a parallel universe, the same but different, no Orr but a more gradual evolutionary process; some other Wunderkind hailed as a game changer, genius, Man/Boy/Alien Wonder. A Hubrid. All hypotheticals. Fiction or Fact?. Certainly strong evidence such programs & that parallel worlds exist but I digress...

Thing is, from entry level through Junior & into pro, you really have to wonder if an Orr or a Gretzky is given his head, given the room to experiment & explore, be creative to the extent that they were coming up in the early 60's & 70's. Much more freedom for players to do so, be so back in the day. Far more wide open affairs, state of play. On & off the ice.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Does the player have to use the same equipment as Orr did? Play shifts as long as Orr did? Deal with the same strategies and reffing as Orr did? If so, then I expect that any current defenceman would struggle greatly if dropped in the early 1970s.

This is really the crux of the issue. Orr was doing things that modern defensemen are not asked to do, and vice versa. Taking him out of 1971 and just throwing him into a 2018 game would be as baffling to him as giving Erik Karlsson a pair of tube skates and a flat-bladed wooden stick and telling him to skate 3-minute shifts. Both would end up looking silly.

But in terms of pure athletic ability — Orr was not just the best player of his generation but the best player anyone had ever seen from 1870 to 1980. It seems unlikely that there would be a defenseman if that caliber actively playing in the league at any given moment... and if there were, i don’t think we would even have to ask this question.

 

[Sentinel]

I think Erik Karlsson, even with all the 70s equipment, would approach Orr's level. His speed would be up there and his quick thinking is on a whole different level from the 70s. But his hockey IQ is not quite the same is Orr's, he is not used to playing 3 minute shifts, and he is kinda injury-prone, like Orr was.

Doughty is kinda like Potvin lite.

 

[Thenameless]

Could they be as good as Orr with their modern skill and play?

In the last 10 years or so, I think Chara at his peak has been the best defensively and Karlsson the best offensively. I think Chara put back into the 70's would be almost as good as Orr at stopping opposing forwards. I don't think Karlsson would be nearly as good as Orr from an offensive standpoint. And that's two different players who are the best at what they do. So no. Even with today's advancements, I don't think any one defenseman playing today would be as good overall as Orr was, even if put back into the 70's.

 

[Killion]

This is really the crux of the issue. Orr was doing things that modern defensemen are not asked to do, and vice versa. Taking him out of 1971 and just throwing him into a 2018 game would be as baffling to him as giving Erik Karlsson a pair of tube skates and a flat-bladed wooden stick and telling him to skate 3-minute shifts. Both would end up looking silly.

But in terms of pure athletic ability — Orr was not just the best player of his generation but the best player anyone had ever seen from 1870 to 1980. It seems unlikely that there would be a defenseman if that caliber actively playing in the league at any given moment... and if there were, i don’t think we would even have to ask this question.

Agree with the first part for sure.... the latter paragraph not so much tarheel. Of his generation sure, I'll go along with that but I wouldnt say he was the best anyone had ever seen from 1870 to 1980... not unless your aware of some Secret Society of Octogenerian's who saw everyone from Cyclone Taylor & others on up through the ages uh? I dunno. Immortals?. Time travelers?.... Time travelers I'll buy... But people generally expire... move on yes? Live Forever, just a song by Queen.

However, there have been other players who preceded Orr, played with him contemporaneously & many who have followed who's various talents were in fact superior though in many cases of those elite to whom one could compare not as complete, as well rounded. He was mortal. To err is human. Made mistakes. Could be faked out, stopped. Bit of a hair-trigger at times as well when provoked. Wanna have some real fun? Push his buttons. Oh ya. Bubba gonna go psycho. Or a good goalie, get right into his head.

I'm not one to deify anyone, any one player as "Greatest Ever" as really much of its subjective, what any given individual prefers & appreciates in a player. Could be Taylor, could be Morenz, Maurice Richard, Beliveau, Lafluer or Gretzky, Lemieux or Lidstrom, Kharlamov... I separate Centers from Right Wingers & Left Wingers, Defenceman go over here, separate... Goalies same.... Sawchuk, Plante, Parent, Tretiak, Durnan, Hasek etc....

Orr is for sure the best Defenceman All Time & yes, Best All Round Player All Time according to my book but I dont get upset if people think its Gretzky or Gordie Howe. Some old timers even still casting their votes for Maurice Richard. Its a players shortcomings as well that are endearing, how theyve overcome them or dealt with them, the struggles. The imperfections. I dont mind imperfections. Human. Limited. Orr was limited. Everyones limited. Not perfect.

 

[tarheelhockey]

In the last 10 years or so, I think Chara at his peak has been the best defensively and Karlsson the best offensively. I think Chara put back into the 70's would be almost as good as Orr at stopping opposing forwards. I don't think Karlsson would be nearly as good as Orr from an offensive standpoint. And that's two different players who are the best at what they do. So no. Even with today's advancements, I don't think any one defenseman playing today would be as good overall as Orr was, even if put back into the 70's.

See, I would imagine it playing out the opposite way.

I don't see how someone of Chara's height could handle skating in 1970s equipment. I have to imagine he'd have constant ankle and Achilles injuries, from the sheer amount of pressure (not just weight but also a high center of gravity) that he'd be applying to his unsupported ankles. And it's hard for me to imagine a wooden stick that would work effectively for a player of his height. I know Moose Johnson was famous for his super-long stick, but that was when players defended and handled the puck rather differently than they would in Orr's day. Of course, if there was ever someone who could shatter bones with a wood-stick slapshot, it would be Chara. So maybe.

I think Karlsson would be fine offensively. He's a beautiful skater and given some time to adjust I think he'd do quite well at rushing the puck in that environment. He's also a more of a heads-up playmaker than Chara, which I think would make it a bit easier to adjust to the wide-open play.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Ok. Now, if Orr hadnt come alomg & changed the game to the extent that he did.... which likely wouldve also meant that Alan Eagleson doesnt cut the same swath through the NHL & wield as much influence & power as he did ergo there may may not have been a Summit Series nor any Canada Cups thus beginning the changes in the game those events wrought.... the results of which we began to see beginning with the Hull line of the WHA, Gretzkys's arrival & all that followed through present day....

The "Rushing Defenceman" wasnt anything new when Orr came along however he took it to a whole new level. You had Eddie Shore followed by Doug Harvey, Red Kelly & Pierre Pilote. Tim Horton as well however his injuries from the Gadsby hit pretty much nullified his lateral speed and so he wasnt anywhere nearly as mobile as Orr amongst other shortcomings. You also had Carl Brewer however he had brakes installed by Imlach just as did every other naturally rushing defenceman though with the few exceptions noted.

Brad Park "copied" Orr's game, so no Orr, does Park "gamble" as much as he did? Does Denis Potvin? Who during that period, what Defenceman during the twilight years of the 06 era & into the 70's when Expansion & the creation of the WHA combined with international play against the only other hockey super power in the Soviet Union hastens, speeds up the acceptance & development of the Rushing Defenceman? Does Paul Coffey come along as he did or does he play a much more conservative stay-at-home game as was the dictate of the earlier eras? Or maybe he's converted to Forward full time?

There is only one original, one Bobby Orr. Everything else is a Xerox. A faded copy, not as complete. If not for Orr entirely possible if not probable that while Rushing Defencemen would have been integrated eventually, a slower process, they may not have been given the total freedom some were, have been & still are, actually encouraged. Puck carrying is discouraged, has been since the late DPE, first Lockout. You just wont see a Defenceman (nor even a Defensive Forward much, all Dump & Trap, Shot Blocking) ragging the puck like Orr or whomever that followed on the PK, much of anything in the way of end-end single handed rushes. Quick passing game. Far less time & space. Short shift sprinters, even the Defensive pairings. Much more fully integrated system hockey. Disciplined. Micro-managed.

So sure, its entirely possible lightning strikes twice, three or even four times in the same spot despite the generally accepted rule of nature that it doesnt. Alien's intervening, Hybrid or "Hubrid" program with which most are Im sure familiar huh? That'd do the trick... Anyhoo... With advancements in skating & skate technology, training, nutrition, on & on, entirely possible the game develops along a different line in a parallel universe, the same but different, no Orr but a more gradual evolutionary process; some other Wunderkind hailed as a game changer, genius, Man/Boy/Alien Wonder. A Hubrid. All hypotheticals. Fiction or Fact?. Certainly strong evidence such programs & that parallel worlds exist but I digress...

Thing is, from entry level through Junior & into pro, you really have to wonder if an Orr or a Gretzky is given his head, given the room to experiment & explore, be creative to the extent that they were coming up in the early 60's & 70's. Much more freedom for players to do so, be so back in the day. Far more wide open affairs, state of play. On & off the ice.

True but not the core of the issue. Leave out the equipment, the rushing,etc. no one before or after Orr had/has the overall natural skating ability that BobbyOrr brought to the rink.

Some like Coffey may had had superior single skating elements but not the total package.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Agree with the first part for sure.... the latter paragraph not so much tarheel. Of his generation sure, I'll go along with that but I wouldnt say he was the best anyone had ever seen from 1870 to 1980... not unless your aware of some Secret Society of Octogenerian's who saw everyone from Cyclone Taylor & others on up through the ages uh? I dunno. Immortals?. Time travelers?.... Time travelers I'll buy... But people generally expire... move on yes? Live Forever, just a song by Queen.

With due deference to human error when it comes to this sort of thing, it does seem to me that there were quite a few people in position circa 1970 to judge players back to the 1930s. Go much farther back than that and it's hard for me to the comparisons too seriously. The "compared to his peers" becomes much more important when we're talking about a league drawn from a very small subset of the population, basically college kids and AAA members, as opposed to the post-war environment where every boy with 2 feet and a dream was part of the pipeline.

I believe contemporary accounts of Orr's career would suggest that he was the best player anyone had seen till that time... but that's just my perception. I'd be interested to know what guys like Dit Clapper and Bill Cook, who would have seen the NHL up close for almost all of its history till that time, thought about Orr in comparison to those who went before him.

 

[Canadiens1958]

In the last 10 years or so, I think Chara at his peak has been the best defensively and Karlsson the best offensively. I think Chara put back into the 70's would be almost as good as Orr at stopping opposing forwards. I don't think Karlsson would be nearly as good as Orr from an offensive standpoint. And that's two different players who are the best at what they do. So no. Even with today's advancements, I don't think any one defenseman playing today would be as good overall as Orr was, even if put back into the 70's.

Chara would also be hampered by 1960s and 1970s limits on stick length which would impact how he played. Defencemen like Jacques Laperriere, Bill White,both 7 inches shorter than Chara had to play compacted as a result.

 

[Killion]

True but not the core of the issue. Leave out the equipment, the rushing,etc. noone before or after Orr had/has the overall natural skating ability that BobbyOrr brought to the rink.

Some like Coffey may had had superior single skating elements but not the total package.

Agreed.... though if you were around for Eddie Shores' career, aged by the time Orr burst onto the scene you might actually prefer Eddie over Bobby.... Shore did rush, joined in with offence, set the tone for Defencemen & certainly for the Bruins very early in their history, in the history of the game, major contributor to the development & evolution of the position, game in general really... including but not limited to the very act, science of skating itself. He re-thought much... highly entertaining to boot.... then of course, Boston Garden a Zoo, Eddie the Zoo Keeper. Biggest star in the game, Hell of a player, meaner than a Junk Yard Dog, took no prisoners. Actually came out a few times after all the rest of the players had arrived on the ice making a grand entrance, Valet in tow wearing a Toreador's Cape, taking his bows.... then proceeded to OWN the game. Didnt see Bobby Orr doing that.... Very disappointing. Came up short. Owned the game at times but no cape. Wasnt Superman. No one is. If their human you can beat em', you can stop them.

 

[Sentinel]

True but not the core of the issue. Leave out the equipment, the rushing,etc. no one before or after Orr had/has the overall natural skating ability that BobbyOrr brought to the rink.

Some like Coffey may had had superior single skating elements but not the total package.

Orr looked otherworldy compared to his comtemporaries. But compared to players 50 years later? I think Karlsson would look otherworldly too, if stuck in the time machine. He'd just need to take time to adjust. His defensive abilities is where he loses ground to Orr... but then again, against the 70s forwards, I think Karlsson would have no problem containing them: his speed and split-second decision making would be drastically superior.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Orr looked otherworldy compared to his comtemporaries. But compared to players 50 years later? I think Karlsson would look otherworldly too, if stuck in the time machine. He'd just need to take time to adjust. His defensive abilities is where he loses ground to Orr... but then again, against the 70s forwards, I think Karlsson would have no problem containing them: his speed and split-second decision making would be drastically superior.

Why do you think split-second decision making would be the most important factor in playing 1970s style hockey?

 

[Eisen]

Could they be as good as Orr with their modern skill and play?

No, modern skill is mostly the result of the equipment and if a modern player plays like he does now in the 70s he would be benched shortly after.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Agreed.... though if you were around for Eddie Shores' career, aged by the time Orr burst onto the scene you might actually prefer Eddie over Bobby.... Shore did rush, joined in with offence, set the tone for Defencemen & certainly for the Bruins very early in their history, in the history of the game, major contributor to the development & evolution of the position, game in general really... including but not limited to the very act, science of skating itself. He re-thought much... highly entertaining to boot.... then of course, Boston Garden a Zoo, Eddie the Zoo Keeper. Biggest star in the game, Hell of a player, meaner than a Junk Yard Dog, took no prisoners. Actually came out a few times after all the rest of the players had arrived on the ice making a grand entrance, Valet in tow wearing a Toreador's Cape, taking his bows.... then proceeded to OWN the game. Didnt see Bobby Orr doing that.... Very disappointing. Came up short. Owned the game at times but no cape. Wasnt Superman. No one is. If their human you can beat em', you can stop them.

Still no one ever mistook Shore for the games most complete or best skater. A constant that cannot be ignored.

 

[BobbyAwe]

Orr looked otherworldy compared to his comtemporaries. But compared to players 50 years later? I think Karlsson would look otherworldly too, if stuck in the time machine. He'd just need to take time to adjust. His defensive abilities is where he loses ground to Orr... but then again, against the 70s forwards, I think Karlsson would have no problem containing them: his speed and split-second decision making would be drastically superior.

I agree Karlsson would come close, but you'd have to be fair and either down grade Karlsson (or any modern player) by taking away their greater conditioning and training, or upgrade Orr by giving him greater condition/training (not to mention a healthy left knee). In general, I believe the top 10 or 20 (or whatever number) players of today's era would be better than the top players (choose an equal number) of any previous era because the talent pool is so much bigger today. You've got almost twice the population of Canada plus a greater number of Americans and all of Europe and Russia. That doesn't mean the greatest SINGLE player of all time could not have emerged in any previous era, but an All-Star TEAM from today should crush an all-star team of a much earlier time.

 

[Sentinel]

No, modern skill is mostly the result of the equipment and if a modern player plays like he does now in the 70s he would be benched shortly after.

So you don't think much quicker decision-making process would give the modern player great advantage? And -- why would they be benched?

 

[Sentinel]

Why do you think split-second decision making would be the most important factor in playing 1970s style hockey?

Because this is one factor that is superior in today's hockey to the 70s hockey. The game today is much, much faster, resulting in quicker reflexes and decision-making. This is the ace card that all today's players would have on the 70s players. Everything else (including physicality and speed) is a toss-up.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Because this is one factor that is superior in today's hockey to the 70s hockey. The game today is much, much faster, resulting in quicker reflexes and decision-making. This is the ace card that all today's players would have on the 70s players. Everything else (including physicality and speed) is a toss-up.

Virtually all reflex plays and decision making strategies have been removed from today's game. Hardly any reflex goalies other than M.A.Fleury somewhat. Decision-making? Hardly any read and react strategies on ice.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Because this is one factor that is superior in today's hockey to the 70s hockey. The game today is much, much faster, resulting in quicker reflexes and decision-making. This is the ace card that all today's players would have on the 70s players. Everything else (including physicality and speed) is a toss-up.

I don’t disagree that the modern game emphasizes bang-bang plays and almost automated levels of hockey sense. But in an environment where split-second decisions are much less important, how much of an advantage is that trait? It’s not irrelevant, but is it really an ace card?

 

[BenchBrawl]

I never understood the perspective that because of modern training and nutrition, you could somehow magically have Bobby Orr's natural skating ability.

 

[tony d]

Orr was a 1 of a kind defenseman. Doubt any defenseman from any era tops what he was and did for the league.