Most talented player who could fight.

kovy1335

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Ogopogo said:
I don't know that three career fights is the same as saying he "could fight". Even Gretzky was involved in two scraps but, I would never count him.

I think his coaches probably yelled at him every time he did. Why the hell would anyone want the best or second best player in the world in the penalty box?
 

Northern Dancer

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ClassicHockey said:
I have two photos, the one that I found and scanned is the beginning of the 'fight' before everyone jumped in. Take a look. That's the way fights were in the 60's before the third man rule came in.

Most people here think that Gordie Howe was the best fighter of all time but except for the one fight with Fontinato, Howe's fight card was not that impressive. He fought mostly when he was younger of course and did not exactly fight the toughest players and did not exactly win all his fights.

But I've seen how legends can grow and people pick up on things.

I've seen Howe cut players and a few did swing back like Kent Douglas of the Leafs.
And when Douglas did that, Howe was in no hurry to get back at him.

I just find it incredible that fans think Howe was so tough when he rarely, if at all, faced an opponent head on to challenge him. Howe always used the sneak attack with his stick or elbow.

I've seen posters say he was such a great fighter but I'd like to ask if anyone can list the fights that Howe was in to prove their point. (besides the Mortson & Juzda fights that I've already mentioned. And, of course, the Fontinato fight.)

If Howe's fights are listed with the dates, then I'll post the newspaper accounts of the fights where I can.

Great pic, an olden goldie. Thanks. You will have to admit that he destroyed Fontinato who was the I believe the heavyweight champ of the time.
 

ClassicHockey

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May 22, 2005
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Yes, Howe destroyed Fontinato if you judged the results by the photos in Life Magazine. How can one not.

What I'm trying to say is that the actual fight was not as one-sided as the photos would indicate. Fontinato was much feared and a tough fighter and he was no 'bystander' in that fight just taking the shots from Howe. Fontinato may have been the meanest & toughest in the late 50's but a case can me made for Fern Flaman as well (who fared very,very well in his fight with Howe a few years earlier.)

I'm also saying that Gordie Howe's legendary fistic reputation was largely built on the one fight and that he really wasn't as impressive as a fighter before that fight and certainly didn't answer any challenges after the Fontinato fight.

I've noticed on these boards that there is a lot acceptance of various 'legends' & 'myths' that get repeated over and over again whether the facts are true or not.

Much can be learned by talking to players and reading actual first hand accounts and then making an analyses of the subject.

I've found that there is almost always more to the story that is usually apparent. (and usually that info is more interesting and revealing).

Some of the hockey stories and accounts should not always be taken as the absolute truth and maybe should be questioned a bit. That's what I try to do.






Northern Dancer said:
Great pic, an olden goldie. Thanks. You will have to admit that he destroyed Fontinato who was the I believe the heavyweight champ of the time.
 

Ogopogo*

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kovy1335 said:
I think his coaches probably yelled at him every time he did. Why the hell would anyone want the best or second best player in the world in the penalty box?

Exactly. That is why fighting is sooooo overrated. If you can score 200 points a season, why on earth would you waste your time in the penalty box? Thes people that say Gretzky wasn't a "complete" player because he wasn't physical and didn't fight are confused about hockey. If you are by far the greatest offensive force in the game, fighting and grinding are a complete waste of your time. Players only grind and/or fight if they are not very good offensively.

Being a "complete player" is VERY overrated.
 

c-carp

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jumptheshark said:
Probert
Neely

Tiger Williams--he did score 30+ twice with the nucks


Good to see Probie get mentioned here he had a year of 29 goals and led the league in PIM's and was on the All Star team the last time the game was held in STL.

I also have to give some props to one of my favorite Blues of all time Brian Sutter. Not the biggest guy out there but he is still the Blues all time leader in PIM's and he was the last Blue to lead the league in fighting majors and he could really throw em.

Also what about guys like

Mark Tinordi
Ken Daneyko
Dave Manson
Rick Tocchet
 

raskolnikov

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Sep 13, 2005
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I find it amusing that people blow by "classichockey"s posts. He has refuted Howe the whole time but people see "most talented player who could fight" and rather then read prior posts, toss in howe's name. Its amazing what people could learn about the sport they "love" if they actually took some time. I know I did.
 

Spitfire11

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109177 said:
I find it amusing that people blow by "classichockey"s posts. He has refuted Howe the whole time but people see "most talented player who could fight" and rather then read prior posts, toss in howe's name. Its amazing what people could learn about the sport they "love" if they actually took some time. I know I did.

It's not "best fighter with talent" it's "most talented player that could fight" and classichockey is not saying Howe could not fight, he's saying that his reputation is blown out of proportion (like many players). Is Howe one of the most talented players to play the game? Yes. Could he fight? Yes. Was he the best fighter of all-time? No.
 

Big Phil

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MiamiScreamingEagles said:
On one of the hockey history shows aired by OLN prior to a game recently, a veteran hockey individual (I didn't catch his name) mentioned Bobby Orr. He said something like "Orr was challenged a few times in his rookie season. Not many challenged him after that" painting the picture that Orr smacked around a few opponents.


I think I know who you are talking about. It was Red Fischer. For those of you who dont know him and most people do, he is a longitme Hockey writer/reporter I guess you could say.

he stated that they tested him in Year 1, but they didnt have to test him after that.
 

Big Phil

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Hard to not pick Lindros and Howe at the top of the list. I wouldnt have wanted to fight Larry Robinson either. Terry O'Reilly coudl score goals pretty well but wasn't as talented as these guys. O'Reilly though wasnt called the Tazmanian devel for nothing. I can remember in all of his rights he just flailed at the opponent as if someone had just stolen his lunch. My most memorable of him is when he went ape on Jim Lorentz in Buffalo during a bench clearer
 

raskolnikov

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Spitfire11 said:
It's not "best fighter with talent" it's "most talented player that could fight" and classichockey is not saying Howe could not fight, he's saying that his reputation is blown out of proportion (like many players). Is Howe one of the most talented players to play the game? Yes. Could he fight? Yes. Was he the best fighter of all-time? No.

Reading his posts however seems to show that Howe didn't fight very often in which case he shouldn't really be nomited. I am refering to the "myth" he is talking about which seemingly alot of people bought into. I'm not saying he wasn't talented nor that he couldn't fight just that I don't see how so many people would list him if they read his posts. He also talks about how Howe use to fight smaller players and is really only known for one particular fight. In which case, Lemieux doesn't fight very often but can hold his own however, he has only received one or two votes though it seems as though his fighting expeirence is almost on par with Howe's aside from the one big fight Howe had.
 

KingsFanInRI

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Bobby Orr was, according to my father, the best fighter in the game. He destroyed a couple of guys and they left him alone after that.

Tiger Williams, somebody already mentioned, did score 35 one year, 20+ three other times, 19 twice and had I think 54 his final year in Junior.

Of the current players, Vincent Lecavalier might be one of the best talented player-good fighter combinations.
 
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Chili

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Flash Walken said:
Larry Robinson?

Earlier in his career, he was as tough as they came. They're weren't many who would mess with him once he established his reputation. Later in his career, he left the fighting to others but he is one of the toughest fighters I can remember.
 

DFF

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c-carp said:
Also what about guys like

Mark Tinordi
Ken Daneyko
Dave Manson
Rick Tocchet


The title said "Most Talented player". Tinordi and Daneyko dont really fit that part of the description......dont think Manson fit neither...Tocchet barely
 

sarge88

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One that often flies under the radar in these discussions is Al Secord.

Obviously he didn't have as good a career as many of the others, but aside from those mentioned in this thread, I can't think of too many guys who have had 40, 44 and 54 goal seasons and were as tough as he was.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=4851


edit; earlier I missed nmbr_24 mentioning Secord.
 

MiamiScreamingEagles

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Big Phil said:
I think I know who you are talking about. It was Red Fischer. For those of you who dont know him and most people do, he is a longitme Hockey writer/reporter I guess you could say.

he stated that they tested him in Year 1, but they didnt have to test him after that.


Yep. It was Red Fischer. OLN replayed it last week.
 

kovy1335

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Sep 21, 2005
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Dallas Flames Fan said:
The title said "Most Talented player". Tinordi and Daneyko dont really fit that part of the description......dont think Manson fit neither...Tocchet barely

Tocchet should definitely be near the top of the list if you are looking at REAL tough guys, not just players who fought once or twice in their careers. Meaning: Lemieux, Howe, Orr
 

jiggs 10

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Jysk said:
Eric Lindros and there is no one ewen near him :bow:

Because he's so far down on the list? :D

Seriously, I think the thread is supposed to be about FIGHTERS who could play hockey, not players who could fight. In that vein, I would pick a guy like Darren McCarty or going back a ways, Dan Maloney. They were decent players, but they were out there mainly to protect their teammates a bit.

But if the thread really is about great players who could also fight, then Richard, Howe and Orr top the list. Bobby got into about 3 or 4 doozies as a rookie, and did so much damage he was never picked on again (ask Pat Quinn, one of the victims).

Howe would have DESTROYED Lindros in a fight. Even today! At 76 years old!
 

ClassicHockey

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If we are talking about great players that could fight, then Red Kelly might be at the top of the list. Andy Bathgate & Harry Watson can be added as well.

I don't know how the posters are defining 'fight'. If its the best technically sound fighter, then Red Kelly again would be near the top. Kelly was a Golden Gloves Champion while at St. Mikes and after his initial beatdown of Vic Lynn of Toronto in the 1950 semis, Kelly was very seldom challenged. Kelly also wasn't a hothead so that's another reason why he didn't fight as much.

When Maurice Richard fought, it was with much passion and hate and of course he had to have some fighting skills. Gordie Howe showed his fighting skills in the Lou Fontinato fight but not much before and certainly not after that bout.

Bobby Orr has been named here a few times and it seems that, like Gordie Howe, that posters are merely repeating what they have read or heard and just automatically assume that Orr was one of the top fighters. Orr as a fighter can be an interesting debate though.

'Jiggs 10' says that Orr got into 3 or 4 doozies as a rookie but doesn't say who those fights were against. I can presume that two of those were Ted Harris and Orland Kurtenbach - two pretty tough guys. Orr won a decision on Harris but Harris was really fighting with one good arm. Derek Sanderson commented on that fight and said he moved in because he sensed Orr was tiring and that Harris might start to reverse things. Orr had a draw at best against Kurtenbach. But just to hold your own against big Kurt meant that you had to have some fighting ability.

But these were not really doozies in the sense that Orr destroyed his opponents because he didn't.

As for Orr fighting Pat Quinn as a rookie, then that is another piece of misinformation that keeps getting repeated and repeated. First of all, Quinn was not in the NHL when Orr was a rookie. Orr and Quinn did fight late in Orr's third year in the league (when Quinn was a rookie) but it was very brief - each kicked each other in the pants then all the Bruin players jumped in, which they always seemed to do.

It was in Orr's fourth year that he fought Quinn in Boston. Quinn was winning that fight until Fred Stanfield pulled Quinn down from behind with Orr on top. So, people say Orr won but it wasn't a dominant victory if you even call it a win.

When Orr fought, it wasn't so much a skillfull fistic demonstration but rather sheer aggressiveness and determination when he fought. Orr punched linesman and opponents - it didn't matter to him, he was so full of fury when he fought. You can see all this is the fight videos.

Orr shouldn't have been fighting of course. But when Orr did fight, his teammates almost immediately jumped in. I don't know how many people know this but the 'third man' rule in was put in specifically because of the Bruins' brawling, well before the 'Broad Street Bullies' used their cowardly gang tactics.

I just finished helping on a book about Bobby Orr that should be out this fall and of course I recommend you guys getting it to learn more about Orr especially and the Bruins from that era.

One thing that wasn't in the book but is revealing about Orr and his fighting was that when he was 14 years old and playing for the Oshawa Generals, he was beaten up in a fight with a 19 year old player from the Brampton 7ups for no apparent reason. ( A teammate of the Brampton player told me this). I think, that after that fight, Orr was determined not to let that happen to him again. That explains partly why Orr fought so much.

Others did challenge Orr after his rookie year and Orr lost two decisions to Rosaire Paiement. But usually, Orr did well in his fights because of his temper and his aggressiveness and his athletic ability (and his Big Bad Bruins teammates).

I'm just trying to set the record straight about Orr's fights and his battles with Quinn which seem to be misinterpreted.




jiggs 10 said:
But if the thread really is about great players who could also fight, then Richard, Howe and Orr top the list. Bobby got into about 3 or 4 doozies as a rookie, and did so much damage he was never picked on again (ask Pat Quinn, one of the victims).

Howe would have DESTROYED Lindros in a fight. Even today! At 76 years old!
 

Murphy

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Apr 2, 2005
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Classic Hockey,

As a kid I remember reading a book on Orr and in it, there is a picture of Orr scrapping Schultz. The picture was basically a head shot of the two and they're cheek to cheek. The caption below was Orr fighting with Schultz and that is all.

Do you have any recollection of Orr fighting Schultz?
 

ClassicHockey

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May 22, 2005
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Interesting, but I have no recollection of that or found anything like that in any research for the book. Not to say it didn't happen because Schultz was pretty classless. I think, though, that such a fight would have been well known. By the time Schultz entered the league, Orr really wasn't fighting as much anyways.

Murphy2 said:
Classic Hockey,

As a kid I remember reading a book on Orr and in it, there is a picture of Orr scrapping Schultz. The picture was basically a head shot of the two and they're cheek to cheek. The caption below was Orr fighting with Schultz and that is all.

Do you have any recollection of Orr fighting Schultz?
 

Northern Dancer

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ClassicHockey said:
If we are talking about great players that could fight, then Red Kelly might be at the top of the list. Andy Bathgate & Harry Watson can be added as well.

I don't know how the posters are defining 'fight'. If its the best technically sound fighter, then Red Kelly again would be near the top. Kelly was a Golden Gloves Champion while at St. Mikes and after his initial beatdown of Vic Lynn of Toronto in the 1950 semis, Kelly was very seldom challenged. Kelly also wasn't a hothead so that's another reason why he didn't fight as much.

When Maurice Richard fought, it was with much passion and hate and of course he had to have some fighting skills. Gordie Howe showed his fighting skills in the Lou Fontinato fight but not much before and certainly not after that bout.

Bobby Orr has been named here a few times and it seems that, like Gordie Howe, that posters are merely repeating what they have read or heard and just automatically assume that Orr was one of the top fighters. Orr as a fighter can be an interesting debate though.

'Jiggs 10' says that Orr got into 3 or 4 doozies as a rookie but doesn't say who those fights were against. I can presume that two of those were Ted Harris and Orland Kurtenbach - two pretty tough guys. Orr won a decision on Harris but Harris was really fighting with one good arm. Derek Sanderson commented on that fight and said he moved in because he sensed Orr was tiring and that Harris might start to reverse things. Orr had a draw at best against Kurtenbach. But just to hold your own against big Kurt meant that you had to have some fighting ability.

But these were not really doozies in the sense that Orr destroyed his opponents because he didn't.

As for Orr fighting Pat Quinn as a rookie, then that is another piece of misinformation that keeps getting repeated and repeated. First of all, Quinn was not in the NHL when Orr was a rookie. Orr and Quinn did fight late in Orr's third year in the league (when Quinn was a rookie) but it was very brief - each kicked each other in the pants then all the Bruin players jumped in, which they always seemed to do.

It was in Orr's fourth year that he fought Quinn in Boston. Quinn was winning that fight until Fred Stanfield pulled Quinn down from behind with Orr on top. So, people say Orr won but it wasn't a dominant victory if you even call it a win.

When Orr fought, it wasn't so much a skillfull fistic demonstration but rather sheer aggressiveness and determination when he fought. Orr punched linesman and opponents - it didn't matter to him, he was so full of fury when he fought. You can see all this is the fight videos.

Orr shouldn't have been fighting of course. But when Orr did fight, his teammates almost immediately jumped in. I don't know how many people know this but the 'third man' rule in was put in specifically because of the Bruins' brawling, well before the 'Broad Street Bullies' used their cowardly gang tactics.

I just finished helping on a book about Bobby Orr that should be out this fall and of course I recommend you guys getting it to learn more about Orr especially and the Bruins from that era.

One thing that wasn't in the book but is revealing about Orr and his fighting was that when he was 14 years old and playing for the Oshawa Generals, he was beaten up in a fight with a 19 year old player from the Brampton 7ups for no apparent reason. ( A teammate of the Brampton player told me this). I think, that after that fight, Orr was determined not to let that happen to him again. That explains partly why Orr fought so much.

Others did challenge Orr after his rookie year and Orr lost two decisions to Rosaire Paiement. But usually, Orr did well in his fights because of his temper and his aggressiveness and his athletic ability (and his Big Bad Bruins teammates).

I'm just trying to set the record straight about Orr's fights and his battles with Quinn which seem to be misinterpreted.

I also believe Quinn to a degree was laying back with Orr, he knew there was no up-side to duking it out and perhaps thrashing him, he wud then have to fight the entire Bruin team. Quinn knew Orr would be gunning for him after the Big Hit and took it rather well. I also believe the fight you were talking about was in Toronto not Boston.
 

ClassicHockey

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You are right about Quinn (and others) holding back on Orr because of the consequences.

The first fight was in Toronto ( a week before the Quinn hit) but the second (real) fight was definitely in Boston. It was on CBS and I have photos from it.

Northern Dancer said:
I also believe Quinn to a degree was laying back with Orr, he knew there was no up-side to duking it out and perhaps thrashing him, he wud then have to fight the entire Bruin team. Quinn knew Orr would be gunning for him after the Big Hit and took it rather well. I also believe the fight you were talking about was in Toronto not Boston.
 

Northern Dancer

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ClassicHockey said:
You are right about Quinn (and others) holding back on Orr because of the consequences.

The first fight was in Toronto ( a week before the Quinn hit) but the second (real) fight was definitely in Boston. It was on CBS and I have photos from it.

I am from Brampton, your reference to the Brampton 7 Ups brought back fond memories. The Orr fight may have been against Ron Pettibone. But that was a l-o-n-g time ago, do not call me out on it. :)
 

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