Most talented player who could fight.

[ScaredStreit]

Gillies was a freaking tank. He didn't just punch people out; he destroyed them. He could hold his own with the true heavyweights of his time, which is amazing.

I personally like Gillies the most out of all of them, without him the Islanders wouldn't have won a single Stanley Cup, and I think he's one of the most underrated players of all time (well before he got inducted into the hall at least). He could destroy anyone like you said, who else could beat the crap out of a Schultz every single time? lol. Not only that but he was a solid scorer as well. His most important role though was protecting Bossy, and he did a great job with that.

 

[ClassicHockey]

Thanks, my apologies. I was not familiar with that. It was an interesting post that I had different views on.

FYI IIRC stands for If I Recall Correctly

 

[ktownhockey]

Lindros and Howe for sure...

Lindros would absolutely kill people back in the day.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Lindros and Howe for sure...

Lindros would absolutely kill people back in the day.

Maybe so, but Lindros has gotten wrecked a few times. When Kasparitis was still an Islander I saw him destroy Lindros.

 

[kingpest19]

Maybe so, but Lindros has gotten wrecked a few times. When Kasparitis was still an Islander I saw him destroy Lindros.

Wouldnt that have required Kasparitis to actually drop the gloves?

 

[Transported Upstater]

I personally like Gillies the most out of all of them, without him the Islanders wouldn't have won a single Stanley Cup, and I think he's one of the most underrated players of all time (well before he got inducted into the hall at least). He could destroy anyone like you said, who else could beat the crap out of a Schultz every single time? lol. Not only that but he was a solid scorer as well. His most important role though was protecting Bossy, and he did a great job with that.

The good thing about Gillies is that he wasn't just a fighter. In fact, he wasn't really a designated pugilist; he was a all-around power forward who had very good skills.

It just happened that he could make your face into ground beef as well.

 

[Spitfire11]

I'm not saying Howe was a bad fighter but his reputation is built on one fight.

I've talked to players who were on the ice when Howe and Fontinato fought. It was a case where Howe had no choice to fight. Howe grabbed the onrushing Fontinato's sweater and landed one uppercut. The one punch did the damage as Fontinato was pretty well blinded by the resulting nose problem. Although hampered, Fontinato did land some punches and Howe was hurt as well - something that is conveniently not mentioned much.

The pictures in Life Magazine are what most people remember. It really wasn't as one-sided as people seem to think.

Well here's Fontinato's account from one of Brian McFarlane's books:

Fontinato raced to the scene, pushed Shack aside, and leped at Howe. "I threw everything at him," he would later recall, "and nothin' happened. The best punch I ever threw didn't even faze the guy. He didn't seem to notice it. Geez, I said to myself, why doesn't the guy go down? Then pow! Gordie hit me with a dandy punch."

It doesn't sound like Howe was hurt at all. If you have those any of those clips could you please post them. I'd be interested in seeing the fight with Juzda.

Two other good ones were Butch Bouchard and Harry Watson.

I've also read that the Rocket wasn't that tough.

 

[ClassicHockey]

Yes, it was one punch that did the damage. Howe was slightly injured but there are no photos of that just the ones with Fontinato's nose all over his face. I think Howe had a black eye but I'll have to check. That was one of Fontinato's beefs - that no one remembered Howe taking Fontinato's punches.

The Juzda fight is on vhs and I don't know how to capture it for viewing here. I have shown it to a number of people who were amazed. Remember that Juzda was short, he was extremely tough.

You are so right about Bouchard and Watson and there are stories about their ability to fight. Its a good thing that they weren't mean hockey players at all.

I don't know what you read about the Rocket not being that tough but you couldn't be more wrong.

Well here's Fontinato's account from one of Brian McFarlane's books:

Fontinato raced to the scene, pushed Shack aside, and leped at Howe. "I threw everything at him," he would later recall, "and nothin' happened. The best punch I ever threw didn't even faze the guy. He didn't seem to notice it. Geez, I said to myself, why doesn't the guy go down? Then pow! Gordie hit me with a dandy punch."

It doesn't sound like Howe was hurt at all. If you have those any of those clips could you please post them. I'd be interested in seeing the fight with Juzda.

Two other good ones were Butch Bouchard and Harry Watson.

I've also read that the Rocket wasn't that tough.

 

[turnbuckle*]

That's an easy one. The most TALENTED player who could also fight was Bobby Orr.

 

[Spitfire11]

I don't know what you read about the Rocket not being that tough but you couldn't be more wrong.

It's in a book called the Habs. Ivan Irwin and Harry Watson both make the claim. Here's a small piece from Watson: "I had a scuffle with him in Chicago. But I never saw him stand up to anybody. Only once in New York when he stood up to Lou Fontinato. And he didn't stand up too long that time."

 

[CanuckistanFlyerfan]

Orr for sure. Howe definately. Lindros was tough too. But the only way Orr and Lindros could square off is if Eric's dad let him.

 

[DFF]

Iginla, Messier, Bertuzzi, Wendel Clark....

 

[Ogopogo*]

Howe or Mario are the first two that come to mind. For current players, Lecavalier is pretty good, as well as Shanahan and Jovanovski.

Mario who? Lemieux never fought.

Considering that Gordie is the 2nd greatest player ever, he would be the greatest player that could fight.

 

[ClassicHockey]

Interesting that you mention Irwin & Watson. I've spoken to Irwin & Harry Watson was a friend of mine. I remember Harry telling me a story about Richard not wanting to scuffle with him. And its a funny story too. But you mention the two toughest guys to ever play the game and no one wanted to mess with those two guys. Richard, at 5'10", was not in the same physical category as them. Besides, Watson was a clean player who wouldn't been have enraging Richard anyways. Trust me, Richard was tough. But he was tough when he was fouled and many opponents will attest to that.

There is this famous photo of Irwin & Richard looking menancingly with their sticks up. So, if you've seen it, you would know that the Rocket wasn't scared of anyone when riled.

By the way, Richard did ok against Fontinato in that fight - and Fontinato was a much bigger man.

There is no video of the Howe-Fontinato fight. I've tried to learn as much as I could about what happened. I've talked to an official, Ranger & Detroit players who were on the ice, read the NY Times, the Hockey News and any articles that I could find. There are differing accounts which isn't a surprise. No doubt Howe won the fight but I was intrigued by the legend that the fight became. It wasn't all that one sided.
I've seen Fontinato talk to Brian McFarlane about the fight and Lou treats it as more of a joke now - the fight sort of made him famous. That reflects what Fontinato told Brian.

There are accounts that say that Fontinato landed numerous punches. Its well known that Gordie Howe's one punch did the damage. Remember that the Howe punch was early and Fontinato still kept on fighting.

Its just like the Jonathan-Bouchard fight that Don Cherry keeps talking about. It was one punch that did the damage.

I'm attaching part of the game story from the New York Times that describes the fight.

In my view, Richard was a much tougher player because he would fight anyone that took advantage of him. And he wasn't a big man.
Howe, on the other hand, was a much bigger player and by far the dirtier player who resorted to hit from behind tactics with his stick and elbows.

Richard only went after players who played dirty against him. His knockouts of 'Killer' Bob Dill & the previously mentioned Bill Juzda cemented his reputation as a fighter not to be messed with when riled.

Howe, went after players from behind and cut them for no apparent reason, other than they may have been rookies.

I think that Howe, in comparison to what Richard went through, had a free ride all those years.

Howe was a great hockey player. You can't take that away from him. But he also had more room than most players had. Howe made his rep in fighting on the one fight. Richard made his rep in fighting in many fights against pretty tough guys.

It's in a book called the Habs. Ivan Irwin and Harry Watson both make the claim. Here's a small piece from Watson: "I had a scuffle with him in Chicago. But I never saw him stand up to anybody. Only once in New York when he stood up to Lou Fontinato. And he didn't stand up too long that time."

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Maybe so, but Lindros has gotten wrecked a few times. When Kasparitis was still an Islander I saw him destroy Lindros.

Kaspar destroyed Lindros with a hit while he was a Penguin, butnever with his fists. Kaspar was never dumb enough to drop the gloves and fight Lindros.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Probert
Neely

Tiger Williams--he did score 30+ twice with the nucks

 

[red devil]

Kaspar destroyed Lindros with a hit while he was a Penguin, butnever with his fists. Kaspar was never dumb enough to drop the gloves and fight Lindros.

Lindros and Kasparaitis fought in the 1996 World Cup. Lindros won the fight, but didn't destroy him as bad as I thought he would.

 

[Murphy]

I'd just like to say I really enjoy reading classichockey's posts.

As far as good hockey players that could fight go, I'd like to mention Lanny McDonald, he dropped them a few times. The only one I can clearly remember was against Billy Smith though but I know he fought a few times.

 

[Spitfire11]

In my view, Richard was a much tougher player because he would fight anyone that took advantage of him. And he wasn't a big man.
Howe, on the other hand, was a much bigger player and by far the dirtier player who resorted to hit from behind tactics with his stick and elbows.

Richard only went after players who played dirty against him. His knockouts of 'Killer' Bob Dill & the previously mentioned Bill Juzda cemented his reputation as a fighter not to be messed with when riled.

Howe, went after players from behind and cut them for no apparent reason, other than they may have been rookies.

I think that Howe, in comparison to what Richard went through, had a free ride all those years.

Howe was a great hockey player. You can't take that away from him. But he also had more room than most players had. Howe made his rep in fighting on the one fight. Richard made his rep in fighting in many fights against pretty tough guys.

Well that Watson quote was referring to players throughout the league. Howe was no doubt one of the dirtiest players to ever play, but Richard was no saint either. Irwin mentions being cut in the face by Richard's stick twice in the one game. His knockout of Juzda came after a fight with Flamen, during which he kicked Flamen in the chest with his skate. He was fined multiple times for slashing players in the head including Lynn and Ezinicki (wasn't he the most fined player in league when he played). Plus there was the disgusting stick swinging incident for which he was suspended, causing the Forum riots. If you can, try asking Watson or any of the other oldtimers you know how they'd compare the two. It'd be interesting to hear.

And I'm curious to know since you probably have a better knowledge of the 50's than anyone else here, what would your top 10 list of best fighters look like?

 

[ClassicHockey]

Unfortunately, I can't ask Harry Watson as he passed away a few years ago. You wouldn't meet a nicer man than him. I remember he came to see me at work and he proudly let everyone try on his Stanley Cup ring and answered questions about the old days.

Harry was on the ice when Ezinicki was cut by Richard and saw the Lynn cut by Richard as well. He was there when the Juzda, Flaman incident happened and maybe the Bob Bailey incident in Toronto as well. I'm sure that Harry saw plenty of Richard challenging and be challenged. I'm not sure that you can take a statement like that in the book and take it as the whole truth. Certainly not if you've heard otherwise.

We often talked about the fights and players that Watson played against. Once he chased Ted Lindsay around the ice but couldn't catch him. He regretted punching out Murray Henderson because he said 'there were other players he would have rather taken care of'. Murray Henderson is related to the Conacher family incidently. And Murray Henderson is still a regular at the monthly old-timer luncheons that Watson and other regularly attended. You get great stories talking to the players when they don't have to talk to a writer or be on camera. I think that the great poster ion this site, 'Just Some Guy' has been to those luncheons and I'm sure he would say the same thing.

Yes, Richard was dirty and had to be watched. But I can only yell you what the players all told me. If you didn't play dirty against the Rocket, you had nothing to be afraid of. But if you went too far, the Rocket would explode and surely did. I remember Red Kelly saying in an ominous tone, "You had to be ready for the Rocket."

But to say he wasn't tough really isn't giving him credit for what he had to go through. I've said this before in another post. I grew up in English Canada where Richard was the enemy and he was dirty and should be suspended etc. And, that Gordie Howe was the hero who did no wrong.

Over the years, as I spoke to many a player and official and read all kinds of first hand reports and watched old film and then analysed the the playing careers of Richard and Howe, I really changed my mind. And here in this forum I am expressing my opinions. But I try to take all factors in account. You may disagree and that is ok. As I said, I felt differently before.

I still maintain that Richard was much more courageous than Howe on the ice. He had to put up with opponents doing anything possible to stop him. Richard believed that there was prejudice against French-Canadiens in the league and he was probably right.

Gordie Howe was sneaky dirty and cut opponents up from behind or when they didn't expect it. Is that your definition of a hero and tough player? Not for me it isn't.

By the way, Howe wasn't respected by a lot of his opponents for a number of reasons - the way he played, the way he kept salaries down and the worst - when he backstabbed the players association started by Ted Lindsay and others when they were trying to get better benefits.

I've seen the comparison of Richard & Howe in the 'People's History' episode that you will see in October and they were fair to both. But you will see that there is so much more passion expressed for Maurice Richard and there is good reason for it.

haven't thought about a list of top fighters in the 50's yet but Fern Flaman would be at or near the top if I had to pick one of the best.

Well that Watson quote was referring to players throughout the league. Howe was no doubt one of the dirtiest players to ever play, but Richard was no saint either. Irwin mentions being cut in the face by Richard's stick twice in the one game. His knockout of Juzda came after a fight with Flamen, during which he kicked Flamen in the chest with his skate. He was fined multiple times for slashing players in the head including Lynn and Ezinicki (wasn't he the most fined player in league when he played). Plus there was the disgusting stick swinging incident for which he was suspended, causing the Forum riots. If you can, try asking Watson or any of the other oldtimers you know how they'd compare the two. It'd be interesting to hear.

I
And I'm curious to know since you probably have a better knowledge of the 50's than anyone else here, what would your top 10 list of best fighters look like?

 

[ClassicHockey]

Thanks Murphy2

I'd just like to say I really enjoy reading classichockey's posts.

As far as good hockey players that could fight go, I'd like to mention Lanny McDonald, he dropped them a few times. The only one I can clearly remember was against Billy Smith though but I know he fought a few times.

 

[Spitfire11]

Well thanks for the discussion. Hope to hear more of your input in the future. Have you ever thought of joing in the legendary HF boards "all-time draft"?

 

[ClassicHockey]

Thanks and I was impressed with your knowledge of the incidents involving Richard too. I have been asked to join the all-time draft but need to get some more free time to follow what happens on these boards.

Well thanks for the discussion. Hope to hear more of your input in the future. Have you ever thought of joing in the legendary HF boards "all-time draft"?

 

[Flash Walken]

joe sakic
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BAIeFirwxXs&search=sakic

 

[raleh]

On one of the hockey history shows aired by OLN prior to a game recently, a veteran hockey individual (I didn't catch his name) mentioned Bobby Orr. He said something like "Orr was challenged a few times in his rookie season. Not many challenged him after that" painting the picture that Orr smacked around a few opponents.

That was Red Fisher I think. Eddie Shore was the first name that jumped into my head.