MLB off-season News & Notes thread (Phils sign Kingery to 6 year deal)

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bleedblue1223

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MLBPA's fault. PA's need to have someone that knows what they are doing during the CBA process.

Players just come off as whiny when you see their comments and what some of the reported offers are for free agents that got rejected. You can't keep expecting teams to sign eventual awful contracts.
 
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Cheese Wagstaff

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Three pages on whether or not baseball players are replaceable without the words "imperfect substitutes" being used once?
 

Cheese Wagstaff

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My two opinions on this offseason:
1. The MLBPA agreed to a terrible deal and it deserves most of the blame.
2. The subsection of fans who seem thrilled the owners are crushing the MLBPA confuse me greatly.
 

bleedblue1223

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They should just agree to all players become UFA eligible by age 28. Players are hitting peak production at an earlier age, and you can't fault clubs for not overpaying for players past their prime.
 

NJDevs26

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MLBPA's fault. PA's need to have someone that knows what they are doing during the CBA process.

Players just come off as whiny when you see their comments and what some of the reported offers are for free agents that got rejected. You can't keep expecting teams to sign eventual awful contracts.

That's it in a nutshell and you saw it in the MLB response...agents misreading the market and players sitting on nine-figure offers (a shot across the bow at JD and Hosmer, at the very least). Between the luxury tax, analytics and teams just showing more restraint after already being burned on hideous contracts in the past this offseason was the perfect storm. Especially with some teams wanting to save spending capital for next offseason.

My two opinions on this offseason:
1. The MLBPA agreed to a terrible deal and it deserves most of the blame.
2. The subsection of fans who seem thrilled the owners are crushing the MLBPA confuse me greatly.

Well fans always are going to side against the players (more than be for the owners) when it comes to money. Especially baseball fans who still hold past labor disputes and the steroid era solidly against the MLB union.
 

Cheese Wagstaff

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Well fans always are going to side against the players (more than be for the owners) when it comes to money. Especially baseball fans who still hold past labor disputes and the steroid era solidly against the MLB union.

Yeah this is what confuses me. The players are the ones actually entertaining us and playing, I don't get why there's a knee jerk reaction to side with the owners. And you can't just cite past issues being blamed on the players because then you have to explain why those were blamed on the players.
 

bleedblue1223

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Yeah this is what confuses me. The players are the ones actually entertaining us and playing, I don't get why there's a knee jerk reaction to side with the owners. And you can't just cite past issues being blamed on the players because then you have to explain why those were blamed on the players.
Depends on the owner I suppose.

It's pretty clear that many of the free agents really overplayed their hand. Like Hosmer holding out for 8 years, when a 7 year deal for him will most likely end in disappointment for the team getting him. Many other examples here. It gets even more nuanced, as clubs are realizing that the best way to win is to develop players from within as players peak much earlier in their careers.

The expectation of clubs to continue to sign dumb free agent contracts is a dumb one by players and agents. They carry most of the blame on this instance.
 

darko

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Baseball players are replaceable. Something that you keep denying. They are replaceable with other high end players. It's simple supply and demand.

Top end players aren't replaceable. How do you replace Trout/Harper/Machado/Bryant?

Where will you get this other top end replacement players? It's not like there's bunch of Trout's/Harper's etc sitting in the minors.
 

darko

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MLBPA negotiated this deal. If you don't like it then suck it up and get yourself a better deal next time EBA is up.
 

Cheese Wagstaff

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Depends on the owner I suppose.

It's pretty clear that many of the free agents really overplayed their hand. Like Hosmer holding out for 8 years, when a 7 year deal for him will most likely end in disappointment for the team getting him. Many other examples here. It gets even more nuanced, as clubs are realizing that the best way to win is to develop players from within as players peak much earlier in their careers.

The expectation of clubs to continue to sign dumb free agent contracts is a dumb one by players and agents. They carry most of the blame on this instance.

Well none of this answers my question about why Hosmer's market collapsing seems to please fans. Is it because we're made he asked for too much initially? I just went through a salary negotiation, I asked for a number I never expected to get and met in the middle, why should I be pissed if Hosmer did it? Like, did he ask for 8/200 and expect to sign for something like 7/150 or 6/135 and then those offers never even materialized? I don't really know why I should cheer against him getting that.

And as has been said to death this offseason, players pre free agency are drastically underpaid, so if free agents aren't getting overpaid then we end up with a scenario where owners are underpaying their labor in total. And yeah, it's on MLBPA for accepting a CBA that creates that scenario, but still why should we be happy it's taking place?
 

Cheese Wagstaff

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I just find this whole offseason super depressing. It seems inevitable we're heading towards a work stoppage (which a whole generation of baseball fans has never seen before), we're in the absurd situation where spring training is going to open with most free agents unsigned, and like twenty fan bases should be furious their team hasn't actually done anything to win in a buyer's market. But there's a contingent out there excited because Boras is losing or something.
 

Blackhawkswincup

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I just find this whole offseason super depressing. It seems inevitable we're heading towards a work stoppage (which a whole generation of baseball fans has never seen before), we're in the absurd situation where spring training is going to open with most free agents unsigned, and like twenty fan bases should be furious their team hasn't actually done anything to win in a buyer's market. But there's a contingent out there excited because Boras is losing or something.

As a fan of one of those twenty I am happy they haven't jumped into FA market just to please the MLBPA

White Sox future is in rebuild not in bringing in expensive mediocre and overpaid FA's. Also if these players were open to 1-2 year deals then Sox and other teams that are rebuilding would not have issues bringing in some to be caretakers until kids at ready but most agents and players reject those types of offers so there is no point in Sox even offering

Sox spent a decade trying to compete bringing in vets via trades/FA and it got us nowhere
 

bleedblue1223

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Top end players aren't replaceable. How do you replace Trout/Harper/Machado/Bryant?

Where will you get this other top end replacement players? It's not like there's bunch of Trout's/Harper's etc sitting in the minors.
Didn't say there were a bunch, but within a year or so, there will be a prospect that joins that group.
 

NJDevs26

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Yeah this is what confuses me. The players are the ones actually entertaining us and playing, I don't get why there's a knee jerk reaction to side with the owners. And you can't just cite past issues being blamed on the players because then you have to explain why those were blamed on the players.

Because the players were the ones that struck and wiped out half of 1981 and the World Series in 1994. Just like when every labor dispute in the NHL gets blamed on Gary because they're all lockouts, stoppages are usually blamed on whoever initiates it, fans don't really care about nuance when you're dealing in millions and billions. Not to mention the players were the ones who obstructed at every turn when the owners finally found religion on steroids, and are obstructing at every turn now when the commissioner wants to make some moderate - albeit a bit goofy and probably ineffectual - changes to pace of play.

Well none of this answers my question about why Hosmer's market collapsing seems to please fans. Is it because we're made he asked for too much initially? I just went through a salary negotiation, I asked for a number I never expected to get and met in the middle, why should I be pissed if Hosmer did it? Like, did he ask for 8/200 and expect to sign for something like 7/150 or 6/135 and then those offers never even materialized? I don't really know why I should cheer against him getting that.

And as has been said to death this offseason, players pre free agency are drastically underpaid, so if free agents aren't getting overpaid then we end up with a scenario where owners are underpaying their labor in total. And yeah, it's on MLBPA for accepting a CBA that creates that scenario, but still why should we be happy it's taking place?

How is Hosmer's market 'collapsing'? It's been widely reported that he's got 7-140 offers. If he's gonna pout and miss Spring Training over not getting an eighth year that's on him. I can't really blame JD Martinez for wanting more than five years but still 5-125 (assuming that report is correct) is nothing to sneeze at either. Owners are getting smarter on years more than money tbh, but even that's too much for the players, it has to be collusion!
 
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Chazz Reinhold

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Didn't say there were a bunch, but within a year or so, there will be a prospect that joins that group.

Based on what? Your gut instinct? Anecdotal references?

You are severely downplaying how elite those listed players are, especially Trout. Trout isn't just some good player; he's going to go down as one of the best all-time if he manages to stay healthy for another 7-10 years. There aren't a number of Mike Trouts sitting in the minors right now just waiting for their shot, nor is there even one.
 

darko

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Based on what? Your gut instinct? Anecdotal references?

You are severely downplaying how elite those listed players are, especially Trout. Trout isn't just some good player; he's going to go down as one of the best all-time if he manages to stay healthy for another 7-10 years. There aren't a number of Mike Trouts sitting in the minors right now just waiting for their shot, nor is there even one.

Yup. Trout is once in a generation type of player.
 

bleedblue1223

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Look at recent rookie of the year winners as a quick example, most become instant elite star players.
 

bleedblue1223

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Yeah this is what confuses me. The players are the ones actually entertaining us and playing, I don't get why there's a knee jerk reaction to side with the owners. And you can't just cite past issues being blamed on the players because then you have to explain why those were blamed on the players.

There's no knee jerk reaction. At a certain point, the players have to realize they misjudged the market. The market changed and players in their 30+ age are no longer valued as much as they were. They never should've been valued as much as they were, and they shouldn't complain know that the market has corrected itself.

I understand why they aren't happy, but they have to play within these rules, but on the next CBA, they should push to get rid of arbitration and allow all players to be UFA's at age 27/28. They'll have to give up something to get that.

The problem is, clubs get the best years out of players when they are very cheap. Not the club's fault, they are just playing by the rules. Change it so that players can make more money during their top playing days, and they won't have to worry about getting their big contract when they are past their prime. You can't be upset at clubs for not handing out contracts that they know they will regret.
 

Cheese Wagstaff

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There's no knee jerk reaction. At a certain point, the players have to realize they misjudged the market. The market changed and players in their 30+ age are no longer valued as much as they were. They never should've been valued as much as they were, and they shouldn't complain know that the market has corrected itself.

I understand why they aren't happy, but they have to play within these rules, but on the next CBA, they should push to get rid of arbitration and allow all players to be UFA's at age 27/28. They'll have to give up something to get that.

The problem is, clubs get the best years out of players when they are very cheap. Not the club's fault, they are just playing by the rules. Change it so that players can make more money during their top playing days, and they won't have to worry about getting their big contract when they are past their prime. You can't be upset at clubs for not handing out contracts that they know they will regret.

Still not answering the question. Even if the players association f***ed up (it did) and even if the free agents this winter misjudged their market (they did), why does it seem like some fans are happy about this?
 
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bleedblue1223

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Still not answering the question. Even if the players association ****ed up (it did) and even if the free agents this winter misjudged their market (they did), why does it seem like some fans are happy about this?

I don't think people are happy about it, I think most fans are just annoyed by the whole situation. Maybe some are happy that Boras is looking like a fool.

Maybe fans of lower clubs are glad that contracts are finally starting to slow down and they'll have a chance to retain talent moving forward. Maybe fans are happy that clubs are realizing the best way to win is to build from within and not through free agency.

It's much more nuanced.
 
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GIN ANTONIC

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Still not answering the question. Even if the players association ****ed up (it did) and even if the free agents this winter misjudged their market (they did), why does it seem like some fans are happy about this?

Because fans want their teams to win and paying players a bajillion dollars doesn't help towards that. There are internal caps in place as well as a luxury tax that teams can't/don't want to go over so the more you spend on an overpaird Eric Hosmer it means the less the team has to on other players to improve the team. And it's hard to feel sympathy for players turning down 9 figure guaranteed salaries that were already probably going to be bad contracts because they want more.
 
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I just find this whole offseason super depressing. It seems inevitable we're heading towards a work stoppage (which a whole generation of baseball fans has never seen before), we're in the absurd situation where spring training is going to open with most free agents unsigned, and like twenty fan bases should be furious their team hasn't actually done anything to win in a buyer's market. But there's a contingent out there excited because Boras is losing or something.
This notion of a future work stoppage is garbage.
 
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