Mitch "The Magician" Marner

[Mugzy97]

Eichel missed 20+ games to a high ankle sprain and then came back and scored 24 goals (57 points) in his last 61 games (among the most goals in the NHL during that time). Matthews scored 40 goals in his rookies season tied for 2nd in the league in goals. As impressive as Marner was he isn't on this same level. IMO

Marner put up 41 assist or something like that in his rookie season along with 20 goals and set a new leaf record for rookie assists. He is a different type of player but it was a very impressive season nonetheless.

 

[Kurtz]

Here is the problem.

In my Rec Room I have this 65' big screen TV, and when Marner gets on the ice, I have to put on my glasses to see him or its just a spec on the screen moving around, whereas when Matthews hits the ice he fills half the screen. Its annoying to have to keep putting my glasses off and on all game, whenever waterbugs hit the ice.

Marner is a very creative little guy, exciting to watch him buzz around and create things out of nothing some times. However big centres like Matthews and Eichel simply can do so much more using the advantage of size and strength. The centre position itself makes them more impactful on a game as well than a winger.

Eichel missed 20+ games to a high ankle sprain and then came back and scored 24 goals (57 points) in his last 61 games (among the most goals in the NHL during that time). Matthews scored 40 goals in his rookies season tied for 2nd in the league in goals. As impressive as Marner was he isn't on this same level. IMO

Marner had mono, which derailed his season towards the end. I'm quite confident that he'll put up comparable offensive numbers to Matthews/Eichel (accounting for a year's head start in development for Eichel), while also supplying better defense than the latter in particular.

Let's also not forget that Marner is a natural centre. I don't see the need to penalize him for being versatile enough to also be able to play on the wing. In fact, if you were to take the two most important qualities in a C that elevate him above a winger - playmaking ability and defensive ability...Mitch exceeds both Matthews and Eichel in both. If a time comes where our centre depth is compromised, I see no reason why Mitch can't easily make the switch to C.

So finally we come to size, the central tenet of the Quinn/Burke era. The reason our former management salivated over Antropov and the possibilities of the Sundin-Lindros-Allison down the middle lineup.

I will acknowledge that in the rock'm-sock'm age of hockey, during which Quinn, Burke etc played...size was a big factor. However, in the modern age, where a big hit is more rare than a goal, size is no longer a prerequisite for success.


Finally, I will pose to you this question. You've seen Mats and Dougie play for the Leafs. Both guys were great and incredibly skilled, but Mats had 6 inches and 60+ pounds on Dougie. Who was the more effective player in their prime, even in that, rough and tumble era? (and by the way, if your answer is too close to call...that will also suffice in showing that it's premature to place Matthews on another level from Mitch on the basis of size).

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Existential Rhetorical Question of the Day: Would the team Marner played on be the better team if Marner did not play on it?

Existential Rhetorical Question of the Day #2: Why must we build crutches for rival players in order to draw them equal\superior to Maple Leafs players?

Those are bad questions regardless if their rhetorical.

1) Let's say Buffalo is a 3 without Eichel and a 6 with Eichel. Let's say Toronto is a 5 without Marner and a 7 with Marner. If you take away Marner, no the team is not better than Buffalo. However that's a bad argument because Buffalo without Eichel is worse than the Leafs eith or without Marner.

2) We're not making 'crutches' for rival players. It's called being logical and not bias. It's completelly illogical to compare points across two very different teams.


Just so you know my position on the topic I think Matthews and Marner aren't crazy far apart. I think Matthews is slightly better than eichel who is slightly better than Marner.

 

[TMLegend]

I see Marner is as overrated as ever. Better than Eichel? On a similar level as Matthews as result of that? puh-lease.

Marner would have to become a transcendent talent to ever be on the same level as those players, just due to the position he plays and his very slight frame. He'll never offer as much as a Matthews or Eichel on the ice, even if he becomes a prolific scorer.

It's literally the Kessel argument all over again, albeit Marner does bring a bit more than Kessel ever did to the table. He's still weak defensively and has tendency for egregious turnovers mind you though.

 

[Mitchy]

I wonder how Hanifin is doing.

 

[FlareKnight]

Marner had mono, which derailed his season towards the end. I'm quite confident that he'll put up comparable offensive numbers to Matthews/Eichel (accounting for a year's head start in development for Eichel), while also supplying better defense than the latter in particular.

Let's also not forget that Marner is a natural centre. I don't see the need to penalize him for being versatile enough to also be able to play on the wing. In fact, if you were to take the two most important qualities in a C that elevate him above a winger - playmaking ability and defensive ability...Mitch exceeds both Matthews and Eichel in both. If a time comes where our centre depth is compromised, I see no reason why Mitch can't easily make the switch to C.

So finally we come to size, the central tenet of the Quinn/Burke era. The reason our former management salivated over Antropov and the possibilities of the Sundin-Lindros-Allison down the middle lineup.

I will acknowledge that in the rock'm-sock'm age of hockey, during which Quinn, Burke etc played...size was a big factor. However, in the modern age, where a big hit is more rare than a goal, size is no longer a prerequisite for success.


Finally, I will pose to you this question. You've seen Mats and Dougie play for the Leafs. Both guys were great and incredibly skilled, but Mats had 6 inches and 60+ pounds on Dougie. Who was the more effective player in their prime, even in that, rough and tumble era? (and by the way, if your answer is too close to call...that will also suffice in showing that it's premature to place Matthews on another level from Mitch on the basis of size).

Much as I love a good battle against Mess....some of this requires rebuttle. I really don't feel like we can just say that Marner can be a center at the NHL just because. Feels like it is far more the reverse. He's a winger who is versatile enough to occasionally play center. But at the end of the day he's more effective as a winger, which I don't think makes him able to casually switch to center at the NHL level. Anything is possible, but there doesn't seem to be that much to base it on.

And again just randomly stating that Marner is a better defensive player than either of these guys. Based on what? Marner's line was horribly defensively. Marner was the guy ready to break out of his zone when the chance came, not exactly focusing on the defensive side of the puck. For someone who apparently exceeds Matthews defensively...he sure didn't look it this past season.

Marner is an insanely talented player. His playmaking ability, elusiveness, and strength regardless of height makes him one of the Leafs three elite young stars. And it is entirely possible he could be the best out of the bunch. At the same time we can't just throw random things out there just to make a better argument.

 

[PuckMagi]

I see Marner is as overrated as ever. Better than Eichel? On a similar level as Matthews as result of that? puh-lease.

Marner is already doing really well. He could be better than Eichel right now. He's obviously better than Dylan Strome.

Matthews is a tier above Marner right now... but Matthews is basically in the top tier with McDavid and Crosby already.

Marner has the potential to be as good as those players if he can grow into a man's body. Marner's skill combined with a strong and athletic man's body could make him a top 5 forward in the league. But that might not happen until he's 25. Matthews is already a top 5 forward in the league at 19.

But at some point, I think Matthews and Marner could both be top 5 forwards in the league (especially if they play on the same line... they would probably finish 1 and 2 in points in the NHL).

 

[CanadasTeam]

So pumped already in mid-season form!

Mitch doing magic!

 

[TMLegend]

I wonder how Hanifin is doing.

Knew you wouldn't disappoint. Still waiting for a few others to show up.

 

[Mitchy]

Knew you wouldn't disappoint. Still waiting for a few others to show up.

lol, same to you.

Marner's still overrated even after the year he had. Yeah, sure.

 

[Gallagbi]

I see Marner is as overrated as ever. Better than Eichel? On a similar level as Matthews as result of that? puh-lease.

Marner would have to become a transcendent talent to ever be on the same level as those players, just due to the position he plays and his very slight frame. He'll never offer as much as a Matthews or Eichel on the ice, even if he becomes a prolific scorer.

It's literally the Kessel argument all over again, albeit Marner does bring a bit more than Kessel ever did to the table. He's still weak defensively and has tendency for egregious turnovers mind you though.

Weird that you'd criticize Marner's D in a post that includes Eichel.

 

[Mugzy97]

Weird that you'd criticize Marner's D in a post that includes Eichel.

Marner's D actually isn't too bad. He hustles back and sometimes does the C duties in his own zone fairly well. There's only so much you can do as a winger but he was the best defensive forward on his line by a country mile. That guy is just sour about something, jealous maybe.

 

[Gallagbi]

Marner's D actually isn't too bad. He hustles back and sometimes does the C duties in his own zone fairly well. There's only so much you can do as a winger but he was the best defensive forward on his line by a country mile. That guy is just sour about something, jealous maybe.

It'll be one of his strengths down the line IMO. Just needs to be a little safer with the puck.

 

[Kurtz]

Much as I love a good battle against Mess....some of this requires rebuttle. I really don't feel like we can just say that Marner can be a center at the NHL just because. Feels like it is far more the reverse. He's a winger who is versatile enough to occasionally play center. But at the end of the day he's more effective as a winger, which I don't think makes him able to casually switch to center at the NHL level. Anything is possible, but there doesn't seem to be that much to base it on.

And again just randomly stating that Marner is a better defensive player than either of these guys. Based on what? Marner's line was horribly defensively. Marner was the guy ready to break out of his zone when the chance came, not exactly focusing on the defensive side of the puck. For someone who apparently exceeds Matthews defensively...he sure didn't look it this past season.

Marner is an insanely talented player. His playmaking ability, elusiveness, and strength regardless of height makes him one of the Leafs three elite young stars. And it is entirely possible he could be the best out of the bunch. At the same time we can't just throw random things out there just to make a better argument.

I welcome a rebuttal.

The Leafs see Marner as a future centre. Or at least they did prior to drafting Matthews. Here's a source where Mitch confirms that Hunter told him that he will play centre in the future.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/mitch-marner-expects-to-play-centre-on-toronto-maple-leafs/

Additionally, all scouts who've opined on the matter believe that he would have no issues at C. Every major publication lists him as a C.

I hope that's enough evidence to close the chapter on this C/Wing debate. All of the experts say he can play both. Given the Leafs needs, maybe he'll stick at the wing long-term. We shouldn't hold this against him.


Second point, in regards to his defense. Yes, his line was poor defensively, but JVR doesn't bother on that end, and Bozak isn't much better. Again, scouts have always said that Marner is strong defensively. The eye test (to me, and I think most others) confirms this. Now I'll grant you that he does turn it over quite a bit in the offensive zone, but he's a rookie who always has the puck on his stick and often goes for the low percentage pass. He'll have to clean this up a bit, and he will, but otherwise, he's terrific defensively. Quimby provided some stats that attest to this fact, and if you watch him closely you will see how smart/responsible he is on that end. I will only add that Marner finished 3rd in entire NHL in takeaways/minute. That is incredible for a rookie.

Meanwhile, Eichel is a notoriously poor defender. That fact is not debatable. Matthews is decent defensively, especially for a rookie so I suppose you can present an argument on that front.

 

[Duke16]

He'll be at Source for Sports in Kitchener today at 10am for anyone in the area.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

He'll be at Source for Sports in Kitchener today at 10am for anyone in the area.

I had thought about going, but I only have Sundin, Clark, Matthews, JVR and Gilmour jerseys, so I don't have anything for him to sign. And as a 28 year old man, it would be weird of me to just show up to meet him.

 

[ACC1224]

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/08/3...ts-to-be-relied-upon-defensively-as-sophomore

Surprised more wasn't made of the new tattoo

 

[diceman934]

My prediction for Mitch ....leads the Leafs in points this year. No more second unit Pp for him...he will be feeding the shooters all year.

 

[Belieber]

I know it's been a while but some of the plays he made last year were just sick, beautiful magic. One of my favourite players to watch, can't wait to see him now that he knows what to expect from a full NHL season.

 

[therealkoho]

One of JVR's biggest strengths is going to the net.

You either generate a scoring chance, or your short-handed. JVR won't be getting back into the play any time soon.

Because Washington could easily exploit this, JVR really didn't go deep. You constantly saw him taking low percentage perimeter shots. Less offense, but less chance you're giving the Capitals an odd-man rush.

That line is like a Cement truck/1975 Camaro/Alfa Romeo 4C. Maybe the sports car wasn't running 100%, but it's still out-performing and getting limited by the weakest link. Think there's a reason JVR trade-rumours keep coming up.

this +1

JvR was the most listless guy on the ice for the Leafs during the last 26 games, he looked disinterested unless he was getting the premier chance to put the puck in the net, watching him throw away so many pucks on low percentage shots instead of getting physical and trying to get something going on a cycle was totally frustrating, watching him dogging it back after a low percentage play was worse,

Babcock had to keep playing him though with very few other choices to play that LW spot.

 

[therealkoho]

I welcome a rebuttal.

The Leafs see Marner as a future centre. Or at least they did prior to drafting Matthews. Here's a source where Mitch confirms that Hunter told him that he will play centre in the future.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/mitch-marner-expects-to-play-centre-on-toronto-maple-leafs/

Additionally, all scouts who've opined on the matter believe that he would have no issues at C. Every major publication lists him as a C.

I hope that's enough evidence to close the chapter on this C/Wing debate. All of the experts say he can play both. Given the Leafs needs, maybe he'll stick at the wing long-term. We shouldn't hold this against him.

Second point, in regards to his defense. Yes, his line was poor defensively, but JVR doesn't bother on that end, and Bozak isn't much better. Again, scouts have always said that Marner is strong defensively. The eye test (to me, and I think most others) confirms this. Now I'll grant you that he does turn it over quite a bit in the offensive zone, but he's a rookie who always has the puck on his stick and often goes for the low percentage pass. He'll have to clean this up a bit, and he will, but otherwise, he's terrific defensively. Quimby provided some stats that attest to this fact, and if you watch him closely you will see how smart/responsible he is on that end. I will only add that Marner finished 3rd in entire NHL in takeaways/minute. That is incredible for a rookie.

Meanwhile, Eichel is a notoriously poor defender. That fact is not debatable. Matthews is decent defensively, especially for a rookie so I suppose you can present an argument on that front.

Yeah I just don't get that, he spent most of his time in London playing the wing, Christian Dvorak being his centre, when Hunter doubled shifted him he would centre a line

 

[54thecup]

I was lucky enuf to be involved with a company with Wendel in 87. He was sooo small, it was amazing. My bro watches Eichel live regularly and says hes a suck.

Time will tell, but get better glasses... I sure like wat Wendy became!!

 

[Advanced stats]

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/08/3...ts-to-be-relied-upon-defensively-as-sophomore

Surprised more wasn't made of the new tattoo

The thread on the main board wasn't enough?

 

[Nithoniniel]

I welcome a rebuttal.

The Leafs see Marner as a future centre. Or at least they did prior to drafting Matthews. Here's a source where Mitch confirms that Hunter told him that he will play centre in the future.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/mitch-marner-expects-to-play-centre-on-toronto-maple-leafs/

And more recently, Babcock - who will ultimately be the one deciding on the topic - flat out said no regarding Marner as a center. That should supersede older quotes that doesn't take into account development over the last few years.

 

[Kurtz]

And more recently, Babcock - who will ultimately be the one deciding on the topic - flat out said no regarding Marner as a center. That should supersede older quotes that doesn't take into account development over the last few years.

I wasn't aware of that, but I did find the quote you're referring to:

I see Willie as a centre for sure (but not Marner), Babcock said after the morning skate.

I always thought wingers couldnt (drive a line) and then I watched (Patrick) Kane and he can do it (with the Chicago Blackhawks).

There are a few guys in the NHL who can drive a line as a winger and they usually possess the puck more than other people and (Marner) is one of those guys. His work ethic, pace and confidence give him an opportunity to do that.


So if Babcock expects him to do what centres do and drive whatever line he's on a la Kane, should we still penalize him for not being listed as a C on the lineup card?