Minor Pro "Scorched Ice" Markets?

crimsonace

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Mar 7, 2010
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Indianapolis, IN
3. Danville, IL / David S. Palmer Arena ... Another example of local government-sponsored arena management driving hockey into the melting ice. The Danville Civic Center Authority has a running history of in-fighting & finger pointing, making hockey tenants (and probably other bill-paying entertainment entities) feel generally unwelcome. Not that the FHL's Barry Soskin wasn't a contributor to the ultimate decision to boot The Fed outta town & instead heap the city"s hopes on the SPHL (which was a disaster from the get-go). But it still looks to me like Danville sports fans won't be seeing pro hockey at Palmer until all of the CCA members kill one another in a Board meeting.

Feel free to rebut my choices & reasons, and add your own nominees.
The other issue with Danville is it's a very small market - MSA population is 74K, is declining fast as is the case with a lot of smaller Midwestern cities, it's in a *very* rural area outside of the city of Danville, and the population is not wealthy (median income $49K).

For comparison, Wheeling, which is the smallest market in the AHL/ECHL/SPHL, is about double Danville's population (the Nailers are also owned by the local economic development corporation and have a great relationship with the community, where they're seen as an integral community asset). If hockey can work in Danville, it would likely have to be a Tier III junior team like the NA3HL, where operating expenses are really low.
 
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JMCx4

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Good points re. Danville, @crimsonace . But I doubt the CCA would treat a junior league tenant any better than a pro hockey franchise. They seem to have their own running game of petty small town politics that gets in the way of their duties to the taxpayers.
 
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GindyDraws

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Mar 13, 2014
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The other issue with Danville is it's a very small market - MSA population is 74K, is declining fast as is the case with a lot of smaller Midwestern cities, it's in a *very* rural area outside of the city of Danville, and the population is not wealthy (median income $49K).

For comparison, Wheeling, which is the smallest market in the AHL/ECHL/SPHL, is about double Danville's population (the Nailers are also owned by the local economic development corporation and have a great relationship with the community, where they're seen as an integral community asset). If hockey can work in Danville, it would likely have to be a Tier III junior team like the NA3HL, where operating expenses are really low.
The Danville Wings actually existed for many years in the NAHL in the 90s, and would easily have access to Springfield, Missouri for easy opposition but numerous failed attempts at the "pro" ranks have killed that endeavor.

As for Dayton, the issue is that there's no viable arena for hockey. For many years, teams played at Hara Arena, which was an absolute rat's nest out in the farmland that mercifully was taken out by an act of God. The Nutter Center is controlled by Wright State but they charge outrageous rent for a school in one of the worst conferences in Division I. And you can absolutely forget about the U of D Arena.

So... No arenas whatsoever in that market.
 

JMCx4

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The Danville Wings actually existed for many years in the NAHL in the 90s, and would easily have access to Springfield, Missouri for easy opposition but numerous failed attempts at the "pro" ranks have killed that endeavor. ...
I believe you meant Springfield, Illinois. You know, that annually pitiful NAHL franchise in The Land of Lincoln (logs).
 

sabremike

Friend To All Giraffes And Lindy Ruff
Aug 30, 2010
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The Danville Wings actually existed for many years in the NAHL in the 90s, and would easily have access to Springfield, Missouri for easy opposition but numerous failed attempts at the "pro" ranks have killed that endeavor.

As for Dayton, the issue is that there's no viable arena for hockey. For many years, teams played at Hara Arena, which was an absolute rat's nest out in the farmland that mercifully was taken out by an act of God. The Nutter Center is controlled by Wright State but they charge outrageous rent for a school in one of the worst conferences in Division I. And you can absolutely forget about the U of D Arena.

So... No arenas whatsoever in that market.
I shall always have fond memories of the Hara Arena just because it was the site of two of the greatest ECW shows ever (Heatwave 98 and 99, the first one is considered one of the greatest PPV's of all time).
 

mk80

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Jul 30, 2012
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St. Charles, Missouri - The Family Arena will be torn down before there's another pro hockey tenant.

Imagine thinking that the Chill would "be around a long time" like un-noted St. Louis area "hockey writer" Randall Ritchey...
I saved that one JUST for you, Eddie. :thumbu:

And I'd add that Family Arena will crumble & collapse before the City of St. Charles wastes money on one piece of demolition equipment.
I've heard that the Family Arena has either removed it's ice plant entirely, or its inoperable. Either option would make sense. But hey they are finally getting new seats installed for the first time since the arena opened in 1999!

Adding another market in my home region ...
4. Bloomington, IL / Grossinger Motors Arena ... A sleepy little twin city in Central Illinois (alongside the college town of Normal, IL), with a generic municipal arena in its small downtown that the city fathers/mothers put occasional effort & money into for maintaining the facilities to host various events. The Bloomington Prairie Thunder played there in the last season of the UHL experiment, then became a founding member of the IHL Version-Whatever (getting seemingly passionate but not a huge volume of fan support), then a single season in the Central Hockey League before calling it quits. The expansion Blaze were the next hockey tenant in the CHL, lasting two years before folding. Bloomington was roped into the SPHL's northern invasion to give Peoria a bus route competitor, but that Thunder only lasted one season (IIRC under a cloud of arena management legal problems). Next came five years of an unremarkable USHL franchise placed in Bloomington by the SPHL Peoria Rivermen owner, with Thunder No. 3 rebranding to the Central IL Flying Aces before ops were shut down in 2019. The FPHL & Barry Soskin got the hopes up briefly of the very few hockey fans left in the area with promises of a franchise & a couple of League exhibition games in Jan. 2020, but that all died of apathy ... ETA: and COVID. Grossinger Motors Arena continues to have a working ice plant & hosts Disney on Ice shows, but otherwise I've heard nothing to indicate that the Bloomington/Normal community has enough pro (or junior) hockey interest left to make it a market that could rise from its many layers of ashes.
Rising from the ashes....


I'll add a market to the Texas list- Houston
Unless there's another arena built in that area, or Rockets ownership ever changes, it's not going to happen at Toyota.
 
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SPIDER1

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Sep 11, 2008
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Dayton, Ohio
Dayton is definitely scorched and potentially may never return.

Just a brief history. Dayton started out strong with the Gems in the IHL at Hara Arena. They were one of the premier minor league teams in the country. They did so well that Dayton attracted the WHA and was to have an inaugural team, the Dayton Aeros. The city seemed loyal to the Gems and wasn't willing to work with the Aeros to make it work and University of Dayton was unwilling to add ice to their arena, so they fled. Unfortunately, the Gems too would eventually fold at the end of the decade due to the bad economic downturn in the 70's.

There were a few attempts to quickly keep Dayton alive in the IHL. There were the Dayton Owls who flew the coop mid-season, then there was the Gems 2.0 which also lasted just a season. The 80's were largely a time of dormancy with the exception for a brief attempt in the mid-80's with the Dayton Jets of the low level Continental Hockey League, renamed All-American Hockey League for season 2 before the Jets too failed.

After a few more years, the time was finally right. A solid ownership group brought us the Bombers of the ECHL. People were finally ready for hockey again and they were a huge hit. So huge that they decided they needed a bigger arena. This is where I mark the beginning of the long slow death of hockey in Dayton. When they moved to the Nutter Center, a part of the deal was helping to finance the installation of an ice plant. The Bombers didn't fill up the Nutt as hoped and the owners began losing money from the financial obligations of that ice plant and higher rent. They sold the team.

The new owner drove the team into the ground. He ran it on a shoestring budget. It was during this time that all the fun promotional stuff disappeared from games. There was no advertising. He burned bridges within the community. Ultimately, the ECHL stripped him of the franchise. Immediately a couple guys came in to save the Bombers. They certainly tried their best and I applaud them, but unfortunately the previous owner left them with too steep of an uphill battle and they ultimately folded the team. It's a shame because they did a good job. I'd say the Bombers were averaging about 2,500-3,000 fans at this point.

This would have been a good time to let hockey lay dormant a bit to find a good plan and to let people start to miss it, but in come a couple of bozos to quickly set up shop during the summer to keep hockey going in the fall, creating the Gems 3.0 for the IHL 2.0, returning to the now dilapidated Hara Arena. They already had a bad rep from their restaurant they owned. Non-payment issues and whatnot. Well, the same type of crap seemed to occur here and they were stripped of the franchise just a month into the season. A good local ownership group quickly swooped in to save the team. Unfortunately, due to the way the ousted owners had hastily assembled the team and scorched bridges, they struggled to turn the ship around. They had originally wanted to bring hockey back but were waiting to do it right, so when the bozos before them stumbled in, it put them in the unfortunate situation to just try to save this team and make it work. They lasted 3 seasons. The attendance by this point was probably down to about 1500-2000.

Now would be a good time to go dormant, but the "bad hockey is better than no hockey" people got their wish and in came the FHL circus, bringing us the Demonz (originally to be called the Devils until New Jersey quickly sent a cease and desist.) Now in a joke league with a few teams in a crappy arena in a crappy part of town, we're looking at 1,000 or less per game. After a few seasons, it goes belly up only to have the Berkshire Battalion move here and become the Demolition. By this point the attendance had evaporated to around 200-500 people. Mid season, due to rumored non-payment issues, they temporarily played in a rec rink, South Metro Sports, before returning to Hara. The owner was stripped of the franchise mid season and came in a new owner to finish the season.

Thankfully Dayton hockey was finally put out of its misery. That new Demolition owner planned to return with a new name for the team, but Hara finally shut its doors. After several years of in-fighting between the heirs of the original owner that prevented improvements from happening, the arena just slowly fell into disrepair, losing business along the way looking for greener pastures. That area in general saw lots of businesses close up shop, including a mall and several major box stores like Wal-Mart, which also kept people away. Nobody wanted to go there. Just a couple years after Hara shut its doors, a tornado would ensure that it would never be re-opened.

This leaves Dayton in a bad spot. The reputation of hockey has been destroyed by several bad owners. The only mid-size ice arena is gone. The Nutter Center center is too big. So where do you go?

I think if hockey ever has a chance to succeed here again, a number of things must occur.

1. Hockey needs to stay dormant for awhile. Give people a chance to miss it and enough new residents that never had hockey here.

2. A brand new downtown arena. There were discussions of such a thing at one time, but those have long died and not sure it will ever be considered. Downtown has brought in plenty of new stuff (baseball stadium, theatre, parks, etc.) that brought much excitement. The Nutter Center just has a failed stench to it, so I think the excitement of something new and downtown would likely be more successful for a good ownership group than moving into something old.

3. A top quality ownership group in a reputable league. In conjunction of a new arena, you would want the buzz of a serious ownership group with an AHL or ECHL team in tow. Lesser leagues and fly-by-night owners aren't going to cut it anymore here.

4. The Blue Jackets must win. They must turn it around, become an annual powerhouse, and win the Cup. The success of the Jackets would certainly grow interest in hockey, making people want and be receptive to having their own hockey team in Dayton. Successful NHL teams regularly enhance the popularity of the sport in their region.

Sadly, I'm not holding my breath. Hockey may not ever return during my lifetime here. It took baseball 50 years to return. An arena not in the plans pretty much stifles all my other bullet points. And even then, those other things may never come to fruition either.
 
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JMCx4

Censorship is the Sincerest Form of Flattery
Sep 3, 2017
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Dayton is definitely scorched and potentially may never return. ...

Sadly, I'm not holding my breath. Hockey may not ever return during my lifetime here. It took baseball 50 years to return. An arena not in the plans pretty much stifles all my other bullet points. And even then, those other things may never come to fruition either.
Your thoughtful & detailed response has a classic: "Now tell us what you REALLY think!" vibe to it. 😉 Your points contain all the sorts of serious considerations that minor pro hockey fans should mull over when dreaming about having a team come to (and stick around in) their home towns. Thanks for your Dayton history lesson & for your educational contributions to this thread. :faq:
 
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SPIDER1

Registered User
Sep 11, 2008
129
9
Dayton, Ohio
You're thoughtful & detailed response has a classic: "Now tell us what you REALLY think!" vibe to it. 😉 Your points contain all the sorts of serious considerations that minor pro hockey fans should mull over when dreaming about having a team come to (and stick around in) their home towns. Thanks for your Dayton history lesson & for your educational contributions to this thread. :faq:
Thanks. I typically only lurk on HFBoards, but this thread inspired me to think about my own city's situation and I just kind of went at it.
 

syracuse blazers

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Jun 14, 2017
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Baltimore needs to be on this list
sadly things never ever worked especially after the wha days
Alot of things have to right in order to have a hockey team here
Not even A LITTLE TINY BIT OF HOPE
The Ravens and Orioles own this market nothing else seems to matter
It is hard getting older hard to watch hockey now,,,TOUGH FOLLOWING THE PUCK
I FEEL FOR THOSE THAT HAVE LOST THEIR HOCKEY TEAMS hard to be a fan
BEST WISHES TO EVERYONE...
 

JMCx4

Censorship is the Sincerest Form of Flattery
Sep 3, 2017
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St. Louis, MO
Baltimore needs to be on this list
sadly things never ever worked especially after the wha days
Alot of things have to right in order to have a hockey team here
Not even A LITTLE TINY BIT OF HOPE
The Ravens and Orioles own this market nothing else seems to matter
It is hard getting older hard to watch hockey now,,,TOUGH FOLLOWING THE PUCK
I FEEL FOR THOSE THAT HAVE LOST THEIR HOCKEY TEAMS hard to be a fan
BEST WISHES TO EVERYONE...
Did HUTCH sell you his used keyboard? :huh:
 

Ratitude

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May 2, 2020
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Albany,ny every team that go in leaves also I thought Elmira has a team?
You gotta really know the Albany market to get a finger on it. Born and bread Albanian here so I know a thing or two. First, "Albany" is really not without good hockey. Albany the city itself is not a hockey hotbed. Albany is relatively a small city with a love of basketball and arena football lol. A city of 90k having an arena of roughly 13K seats for hockey is absurd but that is a whole other debate regarding politics and corruption lol. The greater "Tri-Cities" of Albany, Schenectady, and Troy plus the surrounding burbs is the bulk of the population. The greater capital region as a whole extends well beyond the Tri-City area. Long before hockey existed in Albany the Adirondack Red Wings up in Glens Falls was the areas beloved team. Today the Adirondack Thunder fills the bill as this areas professional hockey team and have filled the need well. Throw in D1 RPI and Union and I can say this area as a whole (not just Albany) is not void of good hockey.

The AHL Devils were absolutely awful here, I don't miss them. The on ice performance wasn't awful, it was how the Devils operated here is Albany which was terrible. For years fans begged the Devils to not have every game on Saturday start at 4pm or 5pm fell on deaf ears. They were just terrible, their departure was met with a collective yawn.

Albany is a very tough market, demanding market. The city of Albany right now is not going through good change. Social and political upheaval has had a negative impact on "traffic" downtown, nobody wants to visit Albany and until things change instability and crime will have a negative impact. Nearby Schenectady however has done okay. They are getting ready to build a new hockey area at Mohawk Harbor for Union's hockey team. RPI has the historic Houston Field House on their Troy Campus. Lastly right up the Northway in Glens Falls we have the ECHL's Thunder (yes "loosely" affiliate of the Devils lol).

As a hockey fan from Albany I am happy, all is okay and I would never want to go back to how the Devils ran their AHL club in Albany. To be honest, the AHL has become a development focused league anyway, which it always was. The ECHL yes is focused on the next opportunities but each team operates away from the day to day control of the NHL club. The AHL works on organizational and systems development while the ECHL seems to be focused on individual development away from the day to day micromanagement of the NHL club. Hockey here is alive and well. Last night RPI and Union played in Albany in front of about 6000K and up the road in Glens Falls I was among just over 5000K (4800 seats) watching the Thunder. Glens Falls has a good thing going there. I would NEVER want to see the ECHL Thunder sacrificed for a half assed attempt of putting another team in downtown Albany. I don't think that is a scenario any of us will need to entertain anyways. Only way I see hockey in Albany working again is if they landed a team affiliated with the NY Rangers, Albany has been over run with downstate transplants. I fit in more with more Homer Glens Falls type of crowd anyway lol, it's the ultimate blue collar working man's hockey experience.
 
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Andre Poodle Lussier

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Apr 1, 2012
157
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Semi seclusion
Baltimore needs to be on this list
sadly things never ever worked especially after the wha days
Alot of things have to right in order to have a hockey team here
Not even A LITTLE TINY BIT OF HOPE
The Ravens and Orioles own this market nothing else seems to matter
It is hard getting older hard to watch hockey now,,,TOUGH FOLLOWING THE PUCK
I FEEL FOR THOSE THAT HAVE LOST THEIR HOCKEY TEAMS hard to be a fan
BEST WISHES TO EVERYONE...

Is Baltimore ever going to get a new arena built?

(I think Baltimore could warrant another crack at hosting a team but not in that dump of an arena. Also, would it work if the Caps weren't the parent? They're really tight with Hershey and South Carolina)
 

swansonsays

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Oct 13, 2021
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Is Baltimore ever going to get a new arena built?

(I think Baltimore could warrant another crack at hosting a team but not in that dump of an arena. Also, would it work if the Caps weren't the parent? They're really tight with Hershey and South Carolina)
The city just spent $250m to upgrade the arena, so I doubt a new arena happens in the next 20 years. The Caps just extended with Hershey through 2029-2030, so that isn't happening either. Where I live, it is twice as far to go to Hershey versus Baltimore, but I'd rather make the drive than head into the city.
 

JMCx4

Censorship is the Sincerest Form of Flattery
Sep 3, 2017
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The city just spent $250m to upgrade the arena, so I doubt a new arena happens in the next 20 years. The Caps just extended with Hershey through 2029-2030, so that isn't happening either. Where I live, it is twice as far to go to Hershey versus Baltimore, but I'd rather make the drive than head into the city.
I reckon the only hope (of sorts) for Baltimore to rejoin the ice hockey party would be an ECHL expansion franchise. In this fantasy scenario, the Stingrays-Bears arrangement would be terminated & send SC looking for a TBD AHL partner.
 

swansonsays

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Oct 13, 2021
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I reckon the only hope (of sorts) for Baltimore to rejoin the ice hockey party would be an ECHL expansion franchise. In this fantasy scenario, the Stingrays-Bears arrangement would be terminated & send SC looking for a TBD AHL partner.
Who knows. SC was not mentioned in the Hershey & Washington extension. No evidence it's related to Baltimore, but who knows.
 
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Andre Poodle Lussier

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Apr 1, 2012
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Semi seclusion
I reckon the only hope (of sorts) for Baltimore to rejoin the ice hockey party would be an ECHL expansion franchise. In this fantasy scenario, the Stingrays-Bears arrangement would be terminated & send SC looking for a TBD AHL partner.

Cincinnati is probably a best case "model" for a recycled AHL/IHL market getting extended life in the ECHL. Nederlander really committed to rebuilding the Cyclones brand after the scroched earth of the Ducks/IHL Clones battle plus the flop of ECHL 2.0 but it took a bit of time (and 2 titles) to get the fans back. Cincinnati might be one of the model ECHL clubs now.

Baltimore as a ECHL market (provided the Caps or whoever the ownership is invested in the market, team, etc.) could fly.
 

JMCx4

Censorship is the Sincerest Form of Flattery
Sep 3, 2017
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St. Louis, MO
Cincinnati is probably a best case "model" for a recycled AHL/IHL market getting extended life in the ECHL. Nederlander really committed to rebuilding the Cyclones brand after the scroched earth of the Ducks/IHL Clones battle plus the flop of ECHL 2.0 but it took a bit of time (and 2 titles) to get the fans back. Cincinnati might be one of the model ECHL clubs now. ...
As illustrated by Exhibit A: Cyclones fans REALLY embrace their "in-game entertainment" ...

CIN Cyclones Beer Can Pyramid.jpg
 

GindyDraws

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Mar 13, 2014
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I don’t think Manchester should be on this list I just think they need a break give them 5 years hockey will be back
You can keep wishing for it but if a market rejected the ECHL, it's probably not coming back.

I get your logic, twisted as it is. You see Jacksonville not have anything after the Lizard Kings besides whatever the WHA 2 was and suddenly the Icemen show up. But that took decades. That's the key word.

Besides, we have a thread for you to mess around in.
 

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