Minor League Thread 2017-18: Part VIII

[nyr2k2]

I always lean towards opting for the tools. I think @silverfish mentioned an interesting question from Billy Beane IIRC:
You watch two guys running to first base who have the same exact time. One does it with perfect form, while the other does it with imperfect form. Which player do you choose?

Is this rhetorical? Or is it the guy with imperfect form, because if you can correct his form you have an even faster time to 1B?

 

[Mac n Gs]

Is this rhetorical? Or is it the guy with imperfect form, because if you can correct his form you have an even faster time to 1B?

Yep, you’d opt for the imperfect form since there’s the potential to improve while having a floor of getting the same results. At least that’s my take on it

 

[silverfish]

Yep, you’d opt for the imperfect form since there’s the potential to improve while having a floor of getting the same results. At least that’s my take on it

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

That's fine. He had that 7 point game or whatever, was plus-70-something. That's what got him noticed. That's what got people talking. He was like a PPG player for half the season. That stuff was being a product of the team he was on. Beyond that, sure, he was a good defensive defenseman for the team. Then we were all thoroughly unimpressed with what he did at the WJC. Kind of put a damper on things.

As I already mentioned, I think bringing up the points is largely irrelevant. Thats not why he made the first team WHL. He wasn't even one of the top defensemen point scorers. I believe the quote was posted here a few times, but his coach, who coached in the NHL, said he was the best defensive defensemen in the league or something to that effect, so it wasn't just the points, which weren't even that good. He also showed well in the CHL Russia series against the Canadian CHL All-Stars. I think its revisionist history to try to claim he wasn't very good last season. The WJC is hit or miss. Chytil had a bad WJC's, largely condemned by prospect people, what does it matter? Mittelstadt who can't even average 1PPG in college hockey was the MVP of that tournament. Being picked to play is probably more important than how a player plays at the tournament.

I mean he was literally the only defensive prospect we had in the ECHL, so it would make sense they'd want to take a look at him. They also wanted to take a look at fringe prospect Dawson Leedahl for 30 games, so, you know, doesn't necessarily mean much. It also doesn't seem like a great sign though that they'd want to play Denis and Kotyk over Zborovskiy at this, the time in the year where you just play the young guys.

As I've explained already, "their" ability to evaluate defensemen seems very questionable. I'm not sure what "they" think should be used as a barometer for what people here think.

Look I hope it works out for Zborovskiy, I just don't see it happening. The skating isn't there. I said the exact same thing about Graves, who had a lot more to offer than Zborovskiy.

All prospects have draw-backs. We are icing defensemen on the NHL team like Gilmour who play some shifts like they don't even have defensive responsibilities. I'd say the ability to defend is a pretty important skill, and a guy we drafted in the third round who has played well in juniors, and then presumably the ECHL deserves an extended look in the AHL. But he might not fit the style of this management team where it seems like defensemen being able to defend isn't a big priority.

 

[darko]

It's difficult to hold any hope for Zboro at this point. A bad pick imo.

I'm far from a scout, but since I first seen him (at the WJC), I couldn't figure out why he warranted a third round pick.

He'll have next year to prove himself but yeah i don't like his chances.

 

[Harbour Dog]

He'll have next year to prove himself but yeah i don't like his chances.

Yup, definitely not giving up entirely on him.

I'm probably as down on him as I was on Gilmour this time last year, and I'm one of his biggest proponents right now, so anything can happen.

 

[kovazub94]

Yup, definitely not giving up entirely on him.

I'm probably as down on him as I was on Gilmour this time last year, and I'm one of his biggest proponents right now, so anything can happen.

I've given up entirely - too many prospects already performing at a higher level (with more to join soon) to leapfrog. The most of the value he'd bring to the Rangers is as a throw-in in a trade. He'd be smart to return to KHL next year. Because of his Russian passport (in a context of a limit on import players) he should find a team that will pay him a decent salary.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

As I already mentioned, I think bringing up the points is largely irrelevant. Thats not why he made the first team WHL. He wasn't even one of the top defensemen point scorers. I believe the quote was posted here a few times, but his coach, who coached in the NHL, said he was the best defensive defensemen in the league or something to that effect, so it wasn't just the points, which weren't even that good.

You don’t think Zbrovsky’s coach is biased in that situation?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You don’t think Zbrovsky’s coach is biased in that situation?

Of course, he is, but AV's not going to claim Rob O'Gara is the best defensive defenseman in the NHL. People are not biased to such an extent where a complete trash player will be considered the best in the league by someone who wants to retain any credibility. He might not have been the best, but he probably was one of the best, and I think the 1st team all league honor also emphasizes that.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Of course, he is, but AV's not going to claim Rob O'Gara is the best defensive defenseman in the NHL. People are not biased to such an extent where a complete trash player will be considered the best in the league by someone who wants to retain any credibility. He might not have been the best, but he probably was one of the best, and I think the 1st team all league honor also emphasizes that.

All I’m seeing on this is that he made the 2nd WHL (East) All Star team

Edit: But more on topic I don’t think his season last year was anything all that outstanding. I’ve never been super high on him, but I gave him a shot and I was pleased by reports early on, but every time I watched him, he just never looked all that good to me, he just kind of seemed like a present day Marc Staal at the WHL/WJC level to me in the sense that he wasn’t a great skater and had a large wing span but not much else

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

All I’m seeing on this is that he made the 2nd WHL (East) All Star team

Edit: But more on topic I don’t think his season last year was anything all that outstanding. I’ve never been super high on him, but I gave him a shot and I was pleased by reports early on, but every time I watched him, he just never looked all that good to me, he just kind of seemed like a present day Marc Staal at the WHL/WJC level to me in the sense that he wasn’t a great skater and had a large wing span but not much else

You are right, it was actually second team, but I'm not sure it matters, either way.

 

[Harbour Dog]

Of course, he is, but AV's not going to claim Rob O'Gara is the best defensive defenseman in the NHL. People are not biased to such an extent where a complete trash player will be considered the best in the league by someone who wants to retain any credibility. He might not have been the best, but he probably was one of the best, and I think the 1st team all league honor also emphasizes that.

But AV is probably on record at some point as saying Girardi was one of the best defensive defensmen in the NHL.

Coaches are wrong a lot.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

But AV is probably on record at some point as saying Girardi was one of the best defensive defensmen in the NHL.

Coaches are wrong a lot.

Is he on record as saying that? And at one point Girardi was definitely one of the best defensive defensemen in the league.

I agree coaches are wrong a lot, that wasn't the point. What I said was very clear, and I think you understand that.

 

[Harbour Dog]

Is he on record as saying that? And at one point Girardi was definitely one of the best defensive defensemen in the league.

I agree coaches are wrong a lot, that wasn't the point. What I said was very clear, and I think you understand that.

I've come so far on here; now you people think I understand stuff. I'd like to thank my Mom for always believing in me.

Yeah, I know where you're coming from, I just don't agree with it. I should of picked a better approach to arguing against it, you are correct, Sir.

 

[mike14]

I always lean towards opting for the tools. I think @silverfish mentioned an interesting question from Billy Beane IIRC:
You watch two guys running to first base who have the same exact time. One does it with perfect form, while the other does it with imperfect form. Which player do you choose?

That all depends on their cardio results...
Who has the better VO2max reading?

 

[Vitto79]

Ct playing tonight ? Thought kids would’ve be up to NY by now

 

[GAGLine]

Ct playing tonight ? Thought kids would’ve be up to NY by now

Chytil can only play 7 more games. Rangers have 8 games left. Andersson and Chytil will be called up at the same time.

Hartford plays tomorrow at 3pm and again Sunday at 5pm. Rangers play game 76 on Monday.

They'll probably play in Hartford tomorrow and then get called up on Sunday.

 

[eco's bones]

To be an effective player in the NHL you have to skate well and that is Zborovskiy's biggest issue. It's the main reason he's in Greenville instead of say Crawley. Zborovskiy absolutely has to make the Wolfpack next year. His chances of an NHL career will be effectively over if he can't make that jump. IMO so far it doesn't look very good for him and with a new influx of d-men coming (Lindgren, Hajek, Day and maybe Bereglazov) I suspect it's going to be harder for him next year.

I don't know why Ronning--a smaller skilled forward is being compared to Zborovskiy but in Ty's defense---he skates very well and he's got a good motor besides. He also was a very effective addition to last year's Hartford team towards the end of the season. I wouldn't guarantee that Ty's going to make it to the NHL or have a long career in the NHL if he does but I think there's a decent chance that those things do happen for him. I'd take odds on him over Gropp or Tambellini anyway.

 

[eco's bones]

It's 1-1 in the 3rd. Lindgren is playing. Andersson and Chytil are playing too--no call-up yet. Mazanec's in net and Schneider has the Wolfpack goal.

 

[eco's bones]

And they lose 2-1.

 

[nyr2k2]

This is what Adam Herman wrote over the summer about Zborovskiy. I don't always agree with Herman but he's knowledgeable and he definitely doesn't make stuff up, so the stats and quotes he provides I have no doubt to be true.

At face value, it appears that Zborovskiy improved significantly this past season. He produced 40 points in 63 WHL games after hitting only 25 the year before. In particular, he improved his assist total by 16. Big jump, right?
As always, context is key. Zborovskiy played for the Regina Pats, who were far and away the best offensive team in the CHL last season. More specifically, answers lie in Zborovskiy’s usage. Regina had Adam Brooks and Sam Steel leading their offense, and both were first and second respectively in the WHL in points-per-game. I spoke to an NHL employee who works in prospect evaluation. What he told me was that, as of January 1st, Zborovskiy spent about 70% of his even strength shifts with those two on the ice. In fact, according to the source, no player in the entire WHL had a higher Quality of Teammate rating than Zborovskiy at that time.

It’s not hard, then, to diagnose the reason for Zborovskiy’s massive jump in assists. Give the puck to the two best players in the WHL and let them do the rest. In fact, just 15 of Zborovskiy’s 33 assists were primary assists. Among WHL defensemen, Zborovskiy ranked 28th in primary points (goals plus primary assists). Zborovskiy was only third among Regina’s defensemen in scoring, and it’s not as if the two ahead of him (Connor Hobbsand Chase Harrison) are stud prospects. A rising tide lifts all boats.

No doubt Zborovskiy improved from last season, but overall he’s still a relatively poor skater who struggles at successfully moving the puck out of the defensive zone; something that should give every Ranger fan nightmares by now. At the World Juniors, he looked particularly exposed with the talent around him neutralized. The bubble burst on him in the second half of the season. Including playoffs, he had just one goal and 16 assists in his final 61 games. Miserable production for a 19/20-year-old on a stacked team. He is good on board battles and his long reach makes him a solid penalty killer, but that’s not enough to cover for all of the deficiencies. For an outside perspective, I spoke to a scout in Western Canada. He did not disagree with my evaluation.

“There is improvement there two years later but he's surely a major product of how good (Regina) is… he's just not a guy who I think has any long-term (NHL) career."

Summer 2017 New York Rangers Prospect Rankings: 29-25

Doesn't paint the prettiest picture.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I guess Adam Herman's opinion that we all know is biased for/against certain types of players if you follow what he writes, now replaces actually watching these players play. As I already pointed out, the points argument is beyond weak. Who is actually using that as a measure of his play? He didn't make the WHL All-Star team because of points, of which he was 24th among defensemen. Its a complete straw-man, and he probably was looking to confirm his own straw man with the quotes he used. Notice how he didn't care to use quotes for the parts that actually matter for a DFD game, just used them for irrelevant stuff to disparage the player. But people like to put down players from their own teams with arguments that don't even revolve around knowledge of the situation. No one here claims to have watched these WHL games, but if one blogger who has extreme biases for and against certain types of players said it, there's all the confirmation thats needed.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I think all of the teams picks minus Huska from the 2015 draft were horrific, Zbrovskiy included

He’s probably a career AHL player

 

[Irishguy42]

FWIW, Herman does have a few minor scouts connections, as well as made a few friends within the Rangers organization, so it's highly doubtful he just pulls this shit out if his ass. Like his writing or not, it's foolish to just say he doesn't know the situation. You can question how much info he has, but you can't say he doesn't have anything,

Just because he says something against a player you touted doesn't make him the bad guy.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

FWIW, Herman does have a few minor scouts connections, as well as made a few friends within the Rangers organization, so it's highly doubtful he just pulls this **** out if his ass. Like his writing or not, it's foolish to just say he doesn't know the situation. You can question how much info he has, but you can't say he doesn't have anything,

Just because he says something against a player you touted doesn't make him the bad guy.

Who said he's a bad guy?

His hockey opinions are extremely biased against defensive defensemen though, him ranking a big defensive defensemen extremely low is as obvious as it gets. I would guess he went into that opinion looking for information to confirm his bias and not looking for the truth. Notice how low he also had Crawley. What a surprise? I gave a fair accounting of what I watched from Zborovskiy last season, how does that qualify as touting? I'd say its better than people who base their opinions off of reading Adam Herman's rankings.