Minnesota Wild General Discussion IV

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TaLoN

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This, 100%
See my reply to that post. The staff wanted Zach to have surgery... it was Zach himself that delayed the inevitable. You cannot blame them for the Parise situation.

The Coyle situation? Maybe, but that's only if Coyle was being fully transparent on his injury situation... which I have my doubts about, and could see the blame falling on either side without much surprise.
 

Bazeek

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while you cant force a player to have surgery couldnt the coach bench him in favor of a healthy player?
The coach would have to know, and it sounds like Coyle mostly kept this to himself. Later in the year it sounds like his agents must have known, but I don't know that I'd expect them to intervene to get their client held out of games against his wishes.

I do wish players would be more willing to just take their medicine, but some guys are always going to try to play through more pain than they should. At this point I'm just glad that the recovery sounds relatively easy and that Coyle should be in good shape again for next year.
 
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Dickie Dunn

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I respect both of your opinions but there is no way Coyle could have kept this to himself. When they are your players you can tell if something is wrong. "It's fine" only works for a little while. And if our medical staff is that soft then get rid of them too. There's playing hurt and there is playing injured. Allowing them to play injured is against the very oath a physician takes.
 

Bazeek

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I respect both of your opinions but there is no way Coyle could have kept this to himself. When they are your players you can tell if something is wrong. "It's fine" only works for a little while. And if our medical staff is that soft then get rid of them too. There's playing hurt and there is playing injured. Allowing them to play injured is against the very oath a physician takes.
"Something is wrong" seems like it covers a pretty broad range, and I don't know of a good way to measure someone's level of pain other than asking them. The coaching staff may have noticed something being off with his stickhandling and shooting, but unless they tranq him and drag him in for an MRI what're they or the doctors going to do? Ultimately they have to rely on the players to tell them when the pain/symptoms go beyond the normal wear-and-tear of a season, which sucks because the players are always going to want to downplay these things.
 

tomgilbertfan

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I respect both of your opinions but there is no way Coyle could have kept this to himself. When they are your players you can tell if something is wrong. "It's fine" only works for a little while. And if our medical staff is that soft then get rid of them too. There's playing hurt and there is playing injured. Allowing them to play injured is against the very oath a physician takes.

No it's not.
 

Dr Jan Itor

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Also, he doesn't know that it's only a 2-4 week recovery, because he doesn't know what it is. All he knows is that his wrists hurt. MRI could've revealed a 6 month recovery, and if he felt like he could play through it and just tolerate a little bit of pain, then I understand the decision.
 
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Bazeek

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Also, he doesn't know that it's only a 2-4 week recovery, because he doesn't know what it is. All he knows is that his wrists hurt. MRI could've revealed a 6 month recovery, and if he felt like he could play through it and just tolerate a little bit of pain, then I understand the decision.
Which is another problem with having the doctors play hardball with players: if players worry that getting something looked at risks decisions being made without their input, they're just going to avoid getting things looked at. It's the same problem you see in mental health, where the wrong diagnosis can black-ball you in all sorts of ways.
 

tomgilbertfan

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I can play this game too......yes it is.

[Citation needed]

AMA code of ethics, for medical ethics:
  • I. A physician shall be dedicated to providing competent medical care, with compassion and respect for human dignity and rights.
  • II. A physician shall uphold standards of professionalism, be honest in all professional interactions, and strive to report physicians deficient in character or competence, or engaging in fraud or deception, to appropriate entities.
  • III. A physician shall respect the law and also recognize a responsibility to seek changes in those requirements which are contrary to the best interests of the patient.
  • IV. A physician shall respect the rights of patients, colleagues, and other health professionals, and shall safeguard patient confidences and privacy within the constraints of the law.
  • V. A physician shall continue to study, apply, and advance scientific knowledge, maintain a commitment to medical education, make relevant information available to patients, colleagues, and the public, obtain consultation, and use the talents of other health professionals when indicated.
  • VI. A physician shall, in the provision of appropriate patient care, except in emergencies, be free to choose whom to serve, with whom to associate, and the environment in which to provide medical care.
  • VII. A physician shall, recognize a responsibility to participate in activities contributing to the improvement of the community and the betterment of public health.
  • VIII. A physician shall, while caring for a patient, regard responsibility to the patient as paramount.
  • IX. A physician shall support access to medical care for all people.

And for professional responsibility

We, the members of the world community of physicians, solemnly commit ourselves to:
  1. Respect human life and the dignity of every individual.
  2. Refrain from supporting or committing crimes against humanity and condemn all such acts.
  3. Treat the sick and injured with competence and compassion and without prejudice.
  4. Apply our knowledge and skills when needed, though doing so may put us at risk.
  5. Protect the privacy and confidentiality of those for whom we care and breach that confidence only when keeping it would seriously threaten their health and safety or that of others.
  6. Work freely with colleagues to discover, develop, and promote advances in medicine and public health that ameliorate suffering and contribute to human well-being.
  7. Educate the public polity about present and future threats to the health of humanity.
  8. Advocate for social, economic, educational, and political changes that ameliorate suffering and contribute to human well-being.
  9. Teach and mentor those who follow us for they are the future of our caring profession.
 

thestonedkoala

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Parise's back issues started two seasons prior, knocked him out of the 2016 Playoffs, and flared up the season after. He spent over a year and a half to avoid surgery, when surgery probably could have fixed the issue quicker and sooner. Does anyone remember the story in the Athletic where they had to load him up in the trunk of his truck because he couldn't sit down? Like someone really dropped the ball on Parise.

You have also Spurgeon and his struggles with injuries. And you have all these groin injuries. I know Minnesota has changed medical staffs, but it doesn't look like they changed their approach.
 

Dickie Dunn

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There are huge ethical issues regarding team physicians and trainers being employed by the team and not an independent party. I think someday, relatively soon, doctors and trainers will no be removed from the conflict of interest.
 

Dickie Dunn

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[Citation needed]

AMA code of ethics, for medical ethics:


And for professional responsibility

And what do you suppose "competent" means? Would you let the team trainer play your 15 year old with torn tendons in both wrists or would you think that doctor is incompetent? What would his colleagues say? There is a conflict of interest here which makes physicians look the other way, doesn't make it right.
 

Bazeek

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Parise's back issues started two seasons prior, knocked him out of the 2016 Playoffs, and flared up the season after. He spent over a year and a half to avoid surgery, when surgery probably could have fixed the issue quicker and sooner. Does anyone remember the story in the Athletic where they had to load him up in the trunk of his truck because he couldn't sit down? Like someone really dropped the ball on Parise.

You have also Spurgeon and his struggles with injuries. And you have all these groin injuries. I know Minnesota has changed medical staffs, but it doesn't look like they changed their approach.
Wasn't Parise being told (and I don't think it was by team doctors) that physical therapy was a valid route to work through the back problems? Honestly I'd probably try the the PT route before surgery as well, especially with my career hinging on it.
 

Bazeek

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And what do you suppose "competent" means? Would you let the team trainer play your 15 year old with torn tendons in both wrists or would you think that doctor is incompetent? What would his colleagues say? There is a conflict of interest here which makes physicians look the other way, doesn't make it right.
Maybe this is a dumb question, but how much say to team doctors/trainers/medical staff have in these decisions?
 

Dickie Dunn

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Maybe this is a dumb question, but how much say to team doctors/trainers/medical staff have in these decisions?

Unfortunately, it depends on the league, the team and what policies are implemented. Concussion? Player doesn't sniff the ice until protocols are followed. Torn tendons? Rub some dirt on it and go play.....until you re-injure or have compromised yourself so much that you inevitably sustain another injury. I often wonder how many "lower body injuries" are because guys just play through something they shouldn't and make it worse.
 

Bazeek

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No matter what the player always has an option for a 2nd opinion and a Dr of their choice
That's sort of what I thought. The team doctors can give their opinion and recommendation, but I assume the decision whether or not to play is ultimately up to the player and coaches, while decisions about treatment are ultimately up to the player. It does seem like everyone would be better served if players were more conservative in how they approached all this, but I don't know that you can (or should) force them into anything.

Concussions are a good exception, though. That's gone beyond ruining seasons or careers and into ruining lives.
 

tomgilbertfan

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Jun 22, 2008
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And what do you suppose "competent" means? Would you let the team trainer play your 15 year old with torn tendons in both wrists or would you think that doctor is incompetent? What would his colleagues say? There is a conflict of interest here which makes physicians look the other way, doesn't make it right.

1) Competent medical care, as in when you are actually providing care to the patient. You can say it's a bad idea to do ____ but what someone does outside of your care isn't part of the care, and doesn't bind you ethically - otherwise if it's as far reaching as you say, if a drug addict ODs after you treat them and give them the proper education the doctor could be liable.

2) A team/athletic trainer is not a doctor.

Also from the article

Coyle never communicated to the team’s medical staff how much his wrists were bothering him.

Nothing the Doctors did went against any oath or ethical guidelines.
 

Dickie Dunn

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That's sort of what I thought. The team doctors can give their opinion and recommendation, but I assume the decision whether or not to play is ultimately up to the player and coaches, while decisions about treatment are ultimately up to the player. It does seem like everyone would be better served if players were more conservative in how they approached all this, but I don't know that you can (or should) force them into anything.

Concussions are a good exception, though. That's gone beyond ruining seasons or careers and into ruining lives.

Seeking a second opinion and seeking separate care are two different things. Plus, just because you are free to seek a second opinion doesn't mean you get to choose where. Now players have the money in most instances to go where they want but how many players do you think are willing to start a war with their own training staffs?
 

Dickie Dunn

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1) Competent medical care, as in when you are actually providing care to the patient. You can say it's a bad idea to do ____ but what someone does outside of your care isn't part of the care, and doesn't bind you ethically - otherwise if it's as far reaching as you say, if a drug addict ODs after you treat them and give them the proper education the doctor could be liable.

2) A team/athletic trainer is not a doctor.

Also from the article



Nothing the Doctors did went against any oath or ethical guidelines.

Agree to disagree.
 

Dickie Dunn

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So you are refuting the reported fact the Coyle didn't tell the doctors about his wrists?

Of course. You really think that these guys can't tell from the bench when all they do is get paid to watch these guys from the bench everyday? They can probably tell shift to shift who is struggling and who isn't. And we are supposed to let them off the hook because they couldn't tell for 3-4 months how hurt one of their players was? Or never heard anything thing in the locker room, or heard from another player? In practice, when Coyle could get nothing on his shots for 3-4 months nobody noticed a thing?

Sorry, I call bullshit.
 

Bazeek

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Seeking a second opinion and seeking separate care are two different things. Plus, just because you are free to seek a second opinion doesn't mean you get to choose where. Now players have the money in most instances to go where they want but how many players do you think are willing to start a war with their own training staffs?
Why would seeking a second opinion or different care start a war?
 
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