Michael McCarron - Part IV

[Bryson]

McCarron on a mission to prove Eugenie Bouchard chose the wrong guy.

 

[Sterling Archer]

It's still easily but I love seeing a prospect shut up all the wanna be scouts who think they're better at projecting talent than Timmins is.

Keep it up. Mathletics epic rant was one for the ages. Don't see him around much these days. Maybe he's working on scouting Scherbak or Juulson.

 

[Whitesnake]

It's still easily but I love seeing a prospect shut up all the wanna be scouts who think they're better at projecting talent than Timmins is.

Keep it up. Mathletics epic rant was one for the ages. Don't see him around much these days. Maybe he's working on scouting Scherbak or Juulson.

Yet, that's still early. And while I also thought we had to be patient with Mac, as he wasn't my pick BUT a guy like him, you had to give him way much time before panicking and letting him go.....Timmins has also made his mistakes too. Look at this present lineup, and since 2008, we have 2 guys that are playing a significant role with this team. A grand total of 3 with Beaulieu. And still...we wonder about guys like Galchy and Beaulieu, wonder what upside and what potential they might finally have. Timmins has had a remarkable 2007...needless to say. But he's also not perfect. And if he's not, I would bet it's normal that we're not as well.

Your present rant is pretty much not helping. Incredibly easy to wait to see where the other posters were wrong instead of trying to play the game and have an opinion on somebody. Easiest job of them all....you're totally certain to be 100% right. Though, again, we will have to wait to see if Mac's offense will translate in the bigs. Just like we have to wait on Scherbak.....who is not looking good so far.....so many holes in his game.....but it's way too soon for him too.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

It's still easily but I love seeing a prospect shut up all the wanna be scouts who think they're better at projecting talent than Timmins is.

Keep it up. Mathletics epic rant was one for the ages. Don't see him around much these days. Maybe he's working on scouting Scherbak or Juulson.

Such a lame post. It wasn't even "an epic rant", merely a heated argument between him and McCagg. If you get challenged on your opinion, you can back it up or let it go. He backed it up, and ultimately was on the wrong side of this debate. Big deal. The ganging up on him in this thread is weak.

Besides, this board is filled with people who think they know better than Timmins, MT, MB, Lefebvre, Molson, etc.

 

[Sterling Archer]

The fact Big Mac is only 20 now is my biggest gripe with everyone who was bashing him. To come out and call a guy a bust at 19 or 20 when he's showed nothing but steady progression the entire time since being drafted is near sighted to say the least and being kind.

As for Timmins making "mistakes" I'd say it was never a mistake at the time. Development is far from a certain process and the Habs scouting has shown for a long time that they are some of the best in the league in a consistent basis. Saying they've made "mistakes"'because a prospect didn't develop they way they were expected is a misnomer to begin with. Drafting and developing players is not and will never be a 100% success rate and Habs have one of the better if not the best rate out there. So while not every prospect makes it, I can be sure to Habs did they're job in vetting them well. The prospects have to take some of the blame as well as the way they're developed. So a blanket statement that its the scouts fault is a little ignorant and I expect more from MS on that.

Just because people think they're smarter than Habs brass doesn't mean they actually are and doesn't make their opinion correct either.

 

[FrankMTL]

Wow, who would of seen this coming in his first year in the AHL. His offensive game is really developing before our eyes. I hope they keep him at Centre as this is potentially the big top 2 centre we've been searching for. Wingers are easier to find than centres of this size.

If he turns into a Keith Primeau type player, I would be ecstatic.

 

[jaffy27]

Yeah but there was a lot of pro scouts who didnt think he was worth taking in the 1st and it was until his 2nd year with London that they changed their minds.

So our scouts can see into the future.........hope this humbles a few of the posters here when they think they know more than the pro scouts, so much bashing on this guy and the pro scouting team when we drafted this guy, it's exactly why you don't judge a player and label him a bust at 18yrs old, no matter how badly he's doing!!

 

[Whitesnake]

The fact Big Mac is only 20 now is my biggest gripe with everyone who was bashing him. To come out and call a guy a bust at 19 or 20 when he's showed nothing but steady progression the entire time since being drafted is near sighted to say the least and being kind.

As for Timmins making "mistakes" I'd say it was never a mistake at the time. Development is far from a certain process and the Habs scouting has shown for a long time that they are some of the best in the league in a consistent basis. Saying they've made "mistakes"'because a prospect didn't develop they way they were expected is a misnomer to begin with. Drafting and developing players is not and will never be a 100% success rate and Habs have one of the better if not the best rate out there. So while not every prospect makes it, I can be sure to Habs did they're job in vetting them well. The prospects have to take some of the blame as well as the way they're developed. So a blanket statement that its the scouts fault is a little ignorant and I expect more from MS on that.

Just because people think they're smarter than Habs brass doesn't mean they actually are and doesn't make their opinion correct either.

So....scouting IS the perfect job then. I mean, NOBODY makes mistakes....it's all about development. Which I guess means that Mathletic, me, you or anybody else ALSO could have been the Habs head scout as we'd be able to put our "mistakes" on bad development....Sign me in then. No accountability...you wonder why there's still so many guys that loses their scouting jobs though....can't believe their boss just don't believe them that it's not their fault.....

Most "negative" opinions on Big Mac was that in the 1st round, if the draft is good enough, you should need to target guys with pure skills, guys that have proven that they can be top 6F and top 4D 'cause it's tougher to get as the draft pass by. At every level Mac played, he didn't show he had the offensive skills to be anything else than a bottom 6 player. And that one of the only reason we went with him is the incessant discussion of we're not big enough. Even people started to say that it didn't sount as a Timmins pick, more like a Churla one (which I don't agree....I fail to see how Timmins would just go with somebody he disagree on but that's another story...). Pick was seen great by some as he was described to be a big mean machine that could score too....but I think it still was fine to wonder how mean he was....he's not exactly the best fighter and could easily be destroyed the day he reach the NHL if he goes head to head with the top guys, though, great thing for him is that there's less and less of those guys around. So I guess he could do well against the Boll of this world. But that remains to be seen. And his scoring....well again, look at the stats.....and he was not exactly lightnin any league he played in DESPITE being so much bigger and talleer than everybody else. Last year he started to show it and even last year....people were worried about his lack of goals with Oshawa. While this kinda settled in the playoffs though. And OF ALL THE PROSPECTS chosen in 2013, he had the worst offensive record amongst the forwards in the year after the draft.....almost throughout the ENTIRE draft. At the very least for the first 3 rounds. I think there was some legitimate concerns......BUT for a guy like him at that size, yes....there HAD to be a patience card with him. Totally. Which I did play even if I wasn't that high on the pick when it was made. The guy needed the time to develop. But then....just like one guy though....named Jarred Tinordi. SAME concerns happened...but the SAME response had to be given...we needed to be patient.....but it clearly is not going to end the same way. Unless he just need a change of scenery and gets it going.

As far as who's brighter and so on....there's just no need in going there. Nobody ever claimed that they know better. WE might have some harsh words, we might have a straight opinion on somebody that it might actually end up to be wrong.....but it's not because that we have an opinion that we actually claim that it is THE opinion to have.....I have no idea why people keep saying that.....If you don't like people with opinions....I have no idea what you are doing in a hockey forum....

In the end, pros makes mistakes. So amateurs can too. Tons of pro scouts DISAGREED about Mac 1st round pick. Usually, everybody in the scouting community, applaud Timmins picks....strangely most of them didn't during that year. What makes them then? Are you really going to claim that pro scouts don't make mistakes....but WE do? Should we just refrain from commenting then? Yep, I agree....NOBODY can SERIOUSLY call a prospect to be a bust after 1, 2 or even 3 years. NOBODY. THAT's plain wrong and can TOTALLY be called out. But that's not what Mathletic did or if he did....I'm unaware of that. Not his style. So the only posters you can call out are the ones who screams bust after 1 year or so.....but people who disagree with picks or might have a different analysis than the positive one? Nah.

Wow, who would of seen this coming in his first year in the AHL. His offensive game is really developing before our eyes. I hope they keep him at Centre as this is potentially the big top 2 centre we've been searching for. Wingers are easier to find than centres of this size.

If he turns into a Keith Primeau type player, I would be ecstatic.

I did say for quite a few years now that this was his best potential. I really still wonder where he will play in the NHL....is he really a centerman at that level? That's interesting to see....I would have never believed it if you would have tell me this 3 years ago....

 

[Wats]

If the pro offense can translate from AHL to NHL, McCarron would be looked back on with people wondering how he fell in the draft with his size and size. Without those question marks surrounding his offense, he would have been taken higher. There's still ways to go though, developing him into a #2 center that can produce 50+ points would set the team up well for the future. Especially if they can get Galchenyuk to 60+ point center form.

Habs should not mess with him by moving him to wing. The prospect pool is very shallow at center and he essentially is the saving grace. Hudon can focus development as a LW and fill that hole in the prospect pool/NHL. Both are must hits in terms of making them into top 9 forwards next season IMO. McCarron almost made the team this season so I can't imagine they'll be able to send him down next season after dominating AHL for a full year + impressive camp.

 

[S Bah]

Just be happy the St.John IceCaps are the AHL's youngest team and are very credible threats to win the Calder Cup this year, IMHO!!!...

 

[Mathletic]

If the pro offense can translate from AHL to NHL, McCarron would be looked back on with people wondering how he fell in the draft with his size and size. Without those question marks surrounding his offense, he would have been taken higher. There's still ways to go though, developing him into a #2 center that can produce 50+ points would set the team up well for the future. Especially if they can get Galchenyuk to 60+ point center form.

Habs should not mess with him by moving him to wing. The prospect pool is very shallow at center and he essentially is the saving grace. Hudon can focus development as a LW and fill that hole in the prospect pool/NHL. Both are must hits in terms of making them into top 9 forwards next season IMO. McCarron almost made the team this season so I can't imagine they'll be able to send him down next season after dominating AHL for a full year + impressive camp.

That's a lot of size

I posted an interview with an NHL scout last fall in which he said teams were worried about his work ethic above all else.

All that being said, I can only say I'm very surprised by how well he seems to be doing in St John's.

 

[montreal]

Is he the real deal or is he the next Kreider?

only time will tell, we'll just have to wait and see how he does when he gets the call. I hope that management has learned from past mistakes of calling up 20 year olds too soon. We are lucky that right now the Habs can take their time with him since we are at the top of the league standings and so far have been injury free. Even then we have good depth so they don't have to call him up unless we get hit really hard as they might want to give say Ghetto a long look like Thomas got last year since I don't think Ghetto will clear waivers next year so they need to know if he can help us or perhaps should be used in a package at some point to get us help.

Such a lame post. It wasn't even "an epic rant", merely a heated argument between him and McCagg. If you get challenged on your opinion, you can back it up or let it go. He backed it up, and ultimately was on the wrong side of this debate. Big deal. The ganging up on him in this thread is weak.

Besides, this board is filled with people who think they know better than Timmins, MT, MB, Lefebvre, Molson, etc.

My hole problem with some posters back then were the ones that seemed to take enjoyment out of telling us how badly McCarron was playing in his first year. Then in the 2nd half of the season when he was clearly showing improvement they disappeared. I wasn't involved in the debate between Grant/Mathletic but I've never had a problem with Mathletic as brings a different outlook then someone like myself would bring.

I have stuck up for Timmins in the past rather strongly, but I also point out the mistakes he's made. I have been saying that even though I don't like MT I felt the hate on him (and DD) was way overblown and out of line. I didn't really want MB as I didn't want another rookie GM but I have been impressed with the job he's done for the most part just frustrated that he hasn't gone for a bigger splash so far. I have likely been the most vocal against the job Lefebvre has done, I usually watch every single AHL game between Hamilton/IceCaps so I feel I have a better opinion then most others that don't watch many games. I truly hate the job he's done and think he's just terrible at his job and for the life of me I can't understand why he was brought back and why management didn't feel that someone else could do a better job when we had our 2 best prospects incoming so mistakes can not be made now. But we'll see how it goes, either things will work out or they won't but to me why take the chance to begin with. Molson, I lost all respect for him when he threw the Randy's under the bus, don't care for him at all.

Wow, who would of seen this coming in his first year in the AHL. His offensive game is really developing before our eyes. I hope they keep him at Centre as this is potentially the big top 2 centre we've been searching for. Wingers are easier to find than centres of this size.

If he turns into a Keith Primeau type player, I would be ecstatic.

No one should have expected him to be one of the top scorers in the AHL, although Hudon did the same this time last year and that was shocking as well as you just don't often see 20 year old rookies doing that well. Hudon tailed off of course but we'll see how it goes for McCarron who is also impressing in his own end and in the face-off dot. I said way back that I saw him as a possible Keith Primeau type if the offense developed, we'll see if it happens but if it does wow will that do wonders for our future.

 

[Runner77]

Just be happy the St.John IceCaps are the AHL's youngest team and are very credible threats to win the Calder Cup this year, IMHO!!!...

Didn't know that. I guess what really matters is how many of them have serious NHL projections as some inevitably won't be able to make it past the AHL despite their young age.

 

[Brainiac]

I was a doubter. A whole lot of guys do produce in juniors just because they are bigger and older. Physically, he was a man against kids.

Glad to see he can also produce against other men, too.

 

[BigMacAttack*]

If the second line continues to struggle, I would call up one of (or both) Hudon and Mccarron and put them with galchenyuk.

 

[Runner77]

Maybe as an incentive, players doing well like McCarron could get 2 or 3 games with the Habs in the 2nd half. We've seen management do this in the past, as a reward to players who are performing.

Unfortunately, there is no way for the club to do this unless they free a spot. A Tinordi trade, a Semin release, an injury, all probabilities.

 

[S Bah]

If the second line continues to struggle, I would call up one of (or both) Hudon and Mccarron and put them with galchenyuk.

Fans should always remember the tremendous work ethic and skills of young Christian Thomas, the apple does fall from the same tree in that family. He resembles his father Steve in all the right ways, IMHO.

 

[Beige Van]

Really would like to see McCarron stick to the AHL for the season. He could be a very special player for the team some day soon, so his proper development is absolutely essential. If the Caps don't make the playoffs (yet again), Mac can come in as a black ace. I'm really pulling for this player to be a core piece!

 

[BigMacAttack*]

Really would like to see McCarron stick to the AHL for the season. He could be a very special player for the team some day soon, so his proper development is absolutely essential. If the Caps don't make the playoffs (yet again), Mac can come in as a black ace. I'm really pulling for this player to be a core piece!

This is probably best for his development. Have him dominated the ahl and then call him up for the playoffs. But he's doing so good now and he has the size we need that maybe we should give him a shot before we trade for a top 6 player.

 

[Tyson]

If McCarron can help now then bring him up for a handful of games. Habs need help in the top 6 and Mac might be the guy. For sure he would be fun to watch with his physical play.

 

[Carey Chant]

If McCarron can help now then bring him up for a handful of games. Habs need help in the top 6 and Mac might be the guy. For sure he would be fun to watch with his physical play.

Give him 3 games, even at wing so he can see what NHL pace is like. He's built for the pro game and can throw his weight around and create space for his linemates. I would want him with Galchenyuk to get that guy going.

 

[Sterling Archer]

So....scouting IS the perfect job then. I mean, NOBODY makes mistakes....it's all about development. Which I guess means that Mathletic, me, you or anybody else ALSO could have been the Habs head scout as we'd be able to put our "mistakes" on bad development....Sign me in then. No accountability...you wonder why there's still so many guys that loses their scouting jobs though....can't believe their boss just don't believe them that it's not their fault.....

Most "negative" opinions on Big Mac was that in the 1st round, if the draft is good enough, you should need to target guys with pure skills, guys that have proven that they can be top 6F and top 4D 'cause it's tougher to get as the draft pass by. At every level Mac played, he didn't show he had the offensive skills to be anything else than a bottom 6 player. And that one of the only reason we went with him is the incessant discussion of we're not big enough. Even people started to say that it didn't sount as a Timmins pick, more like a Churla one (which I don't agree....I fail to see how Timmins would just go with somebody he disagree on but that's another story...). Pick was seen great by some as he was described to be a big mean machine that could score too....but I think it still was fine to wonder how mean he was....he's not exactly the best fighter and could easily be destroyed the day he reach the NHL if he goes head to head with the top guys, though, great thing for him is that there's less and less of those guys around. So I guess he could do well against the Boll of this world. But that remains to be seen. And his scoring....well again, look at the stats.....and he was not exactly lightnin any league he played in DESPITE being so much bigger and talleer than everybody else. Last year he started to show it and even last year....people were worried about his lack of goals with Oshawa. While this kinda settled in the playoffs though. And OF ALL THE PROSPECTS chosen in 2013, he had the worst offensive record amongst the forwards in the year after the draft.....almost throughout the ENTIRE draft. At the very least for the first 3 rounds. I think there was some legitimate concerns......BUT for a guy like him at that size, yes....there HAD to be a patience card with him. Totally. Which I did play even if I wasn't that high on the pick when it was made. The guy needed the time to develop. But then....just like one guy though....named Jarred Tinordi. SAME concerns happened...but the SAME response had to be given...we needed to be patient.....but it clearly is not going to end the same way. Unless he just need a change of scenery and gets it going.

As far as who's brighter and so on....there's just no need in going there. Nobody ever claimed that they know better. WE might have some harsh words, we might have a straight opinion on somebody that it might actually end up to be wrong.....but it's not because that we have an opinion that we actually claim that it is THE opinion to have.....I have no idea why people keep saying that.....If you don't like people with opinions....I have no idea what you are doing in a hockey forum....

In the end, pros makes mistakes. So amateurs can too. Tons of pro scouts DISAGREED about Mac 1st round pick. Usually, everybody in the scouting community, applaud Timmins picks....strangely most of them didn't during that year. What makes them then? Are you really going to claim that pro scouts don't make mistakes....but WE do? Should we just refrain from commenting then? Yep, I agree....NOBODY can SERIOUSLY call a prospect to be a bust after 1, 2 or even 3 years. NOBODY. THAT's plain wrong and can TOTALLY be called out. But that's not what Mathletic did or if he did....I'm unaware of that. Not his style. So the only posters you can call out are the ones who screams bust after 1 year or so.....but people who disagree with picks or might have a different analysis than the positive one? Nah.



I did say for quite a few years now that this was his best potential. I really still wonder where he will play in the NHL....is he really a centerman at that level? That's interesting to see....I would have never believed it if you would have tell me this 3 years ago....

So i guess you didn't actually read my post and just used it as a launching pad for your post.

I said fairly clearly drafting does matter and that we have some of the best in the business. Thank god they're in charge and not you, mathletic or myself for that matter because they do a great job in scouting talent. So yes the player and the team both have to live up to their expectations as well. This is hardly a eureka moment here. If it is for you then maybe you don't know as much as you think you do.

As for the "there's no accountability for scouts" comment the most I can say is, come on now.

 

[Whitesnake]

So i guess you didn't actually read my post and just used it as a launching pad for your post.

I said fairly clearly drafting does matter and that we have some of the best in the business. Thank god they're in charge and not you, mathletic or myself for that matter because they do a great job in scouting talent. So yes the player and the team both have to live up to their expectations as well. This is hardly a eureka moment here. If it is for you then maybe you don't know as much as you think you do.

As for the "there's no accountability for scouts" comment the most I can say is, come on now.

You said it was never a drafting mistake to begin with? How come? You clearly say that based on what we know now. Even Grant, his greatest fan, would not have dream for the kind of season Mac is having now. And later you said "Saying they've made "mistakes"'because a prospect didn't develop they way they were expected is a misnomer to begin with". Where's the accountability? Based on overall ratio? Fine. You're right then. But....since 2008....ratio isn't there that much. Yep, a couple of years to wait though before making an analysis. Waiting on Beaulieu's development. Waiting on guys like Hudon, Reway, Dietz Grégoire, Ghetto, Lehkonen, DLR, Mac, and the entire 14 and 15 draft though my belief, which can TOTALLY be wrong as proven times and times again, is that the last 4 picks of this draft has a long way to go. And 15 well....again, way too soon....but aside from a great pick that could be Juulsen if his concussion history isn't a problem, we might be able to have gotten some depth in that draft. But there are still ways to go before we make a complete and full analysis of those drafts for sure.....I know that as strategy, we should aim at skills and hockey IQ. I know, character also has to be there, but I think it's easier to take a guy with tremendous talent and teach him character, then take a tremendous character and teach him talent.....Best scenario would be to have both...and that's what they say they are doing. Again, we will have to wait for sure. Nobody can call a prospect a bust even if they were drafted in 2013. I think that 2012 is pretty much fair game but it doesn't mean that we might not make a mistake in assessing a player....late-blooming do exist.

 

[Habnot]

Most "negative" opinions on Big Mac was that in the 1st round, if the draft is good enough, you should need to target guys with pure skills, guys that have proven that they can be top 6F and top 4D 'cause it's tougher to get as the draft pass by. At every level Mac played, he didn't show he had the offensive skills to be anything else than a bottom 6 player. And that one of the only reason we went with him is the incessant discussion of we're not big enough. Even people started to say that it didn't sount as a Timmins pick, more like a Churla one (which I don't agree....I fail to see how Timmins would just go with somebody he disagree on but that's another story...). Pick was seen great by some as he was described to be a big mean machine that could score too....but I think it still was fine to wonder how mean he was....he's not exactly the best fighter and could easily be destroyed the day he reach the NHL if he goes head to head with the top guys, though, great thing for him is that there's less and less of those guys around. So I guess he could do well against the Boll of this world. But that remains to be seen. And his scoring....well again, look at the stats.....and he was not exactly lightnin any league he played in DESPITE being so much bigger and talleer than everybody else. Last year he started to show it and even last year....people were worried about his lack of goals with Oshawa. While this kinda settled in the playoffs though. And OF ALL THE PROSPECTS chosen in 2013, he had the worst offensive record amongst the forwards in the year after the draft.....almost throughout the ENTIRE draft. At the very least for the first 3 rounds. I think there was some legitimate concerns......BUT for a guy like him at that size, yes....there HAD to be a patience card with him. Totally. Which I did play even if I wasn't that high on the pick when it was made. The guy needed the time to develop. But then....just like one guy though....named Jarred Tinordi. SAME concerns happened...but the SAME response had to be given...we needed to be patient.....but it clearly is not going to end the same way. Unless he just need a change of scenery and gets it going.

Mac was clearly a high risk/high reward pick and the Habs took the gamble because they had 3 additional picks in the second round - two very high second rounders. He filled an organization need. This was said at the time by MB and TT. It's the type of pick you sometimes have to make when you are drafting in the bottom 3rd of the first round.

Last year with the Habs not having a 2nd, they clearly went with a safe pick in Juulsen.

 

[DAChampion]

You said it was never a drafting mistake to begin with? How come? You clearly say that based on what we know now. Even Grant, his greatest fan, would not have dream for the kind of season Mac is having now. And later you said "Saying they've made "mistakes"'because a prospect didn't develop they way they were expected is a misnomer to begin with". Where's the accountability? Based on overall ratio? Fine. You're right then. But....since 2008....ratio isn't there that much. Yep, a couple of years to wait though before making an analysis. Waiting on Beaulieu's development. Waiting on guys like Hudon, Reway, Dietz Grégoire, Ghetto, Lehkonen, DLR, Mac, and the entire 14 and 15 draft though my belief, which can TOTALLY be wrong as proven times and times again, is that the last 4 picks of this draft has a long way to go. And 15 well....again, way too soon....but aside from a great pick that could be Juulsen if his concussion history isn't a problem, we might be able to have gotten some depth in that draft. But there are still ways to go before we make a complete and full analysis of those drafts for sure.....I know that as strategy, we should aim at skills and hockey IQ. I know, character also has to be there, but I think it's easier to take a guy with tremendous talent and teach him character, then take a tremendous character and teach him talent.....Best scenario would be to have both...and that's what they say they are doing. Again, we will have to wait for sure. Nobody can call a prospect a bust even if they were drafted in 2013. I think that 2012 is pretty much fair game but it doesn't mean that we might not make a mistake in assessing a player....late-blooming do exist.

Grant actually said McCarron might have made the NHL by now, he waa very high on him.

Where is Grant anyway?