Messier Vs Yzerman

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by FakeKidPoker*, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. Jim MacDonald

    Jim MacDonald Registered User

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    I know I should maybe check out the HF Board rules etc Panther.....when a thread gets bumped what does that mean? Doesn't kinda become "old news" or something etc ....not something to post on because it's "too old?"
     
  2. Killion

    Killion Global Moderator

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    "Bumped" as in brought forward from long ago, from the bottom of a page or several pages back... also known as "Necro Bump" if like 2-4-6yrs old or what have you.... There are no specific rules forbidding such... indeed, I & many others find it amusing at times as often its a thread that was deemed to be "all talked out" or "concluded". But in reality if its still open & on the menu you can post in it, play Experimental Archeologist or Necromancer, bring it back from the dead, bump it back onto the top of the menu board.
     
  3. The Panther

    The Panther Registered User

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    Was he really a better scorer, though? I kind of don't think he was.

    Yzerman
    3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10

    Messier
    2, 3, 5, 5, 7, 10

    What I'd say for Yzerman in this comparison is that c.1986 to 1991 he was the bread-and-butter of the Wings, and everyone else was just the salt and pepper. He had to carry a team's load at a young age for several years, which (for obvious reasons) Messier didn't, in Edmonton.
     
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  4. Sentinel

    Sentinel Registered User

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    Five 50+ goal seasons vs. one. Plus Y was just a better shot than Messier.
     
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  5. BenchBrawl

    BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

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    It's been 6 years since 2012, how time flies.I was a new kid on the block.

    Messier has been rising on my list for a few years.Ignoring the tricky Crosby case, I have Messier 5th greatest center of all-time, behind Morenz, Béliveau, Lemieux and Gretzky.

    In the opposite direction, Yzerman has been losing value with time.Maybe that's unfair and his case was neglected (maybe the consequence of him losing the Sakic vs. Yzerman war?).

    Strange timing to bring this up
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018 at 7:05 PM
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  6. The Panther

    The Panther Registered User

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    Okay... but:

    Yzerman
    3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10

    Messier
    2, 3, 5, 5, 7, 10

    Yzerman certainly had a way better slapshot than Messier (well, Charlie Huddy probably had a better slapshot than Messier). But Messier had a better wrist-shot than Yzerman, I think. Better skater, too. Passing, they're about equal.

    I certainly think Yzerman was the better goal-scorer in general. But was his peak/prime better offensively -- all things considered -- than Messier's? I dunno, I'd call it even.
     
  7. bobholly39

    bobholly39 Registered User

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    Scoring finishes don't always tell the whole story though.
    Yzerman's highest point totals are: 155, 127, 137

    Messier's highest point totals are: 129, 111, 107

    Yzerman goal totals are: 65, 62, 58
    Messier are: 50, 48, 47

    Yeah i think it's fair to say Yzerman's peak/prime offensively was better than Messier.

    Now if you want to throw in playoffs to try and tip the edge over to Messier....fine maybe. But in regular season, it's Yzerman.
     
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  8. Theokritos

    Theokritos Moderator

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    And raw point totals do?

    Since scoring level changes from season to season, scoring finishes probably tell us more than 155 points vs 129 points does.
     
  9. The Panther

    The Panther Registered User

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    Well, we've already determined that Yzerman (in prime) was the better goal-scorer. That's a done deal, I agree.

    But about point totals, consider:

    PPG 1987 to 1993 (Yzerman's peak):
    1. Lemieux
    2. Gretzky
    3. Yzerman

    PPG 1986 to 2000 (Yzerman's "extended" prime):
    1. Lemieux
    2. Gretzky
    3. Lindros
    4. Jagr
    5. Selanne
    6. Yzerman

    **************************************
    PPG 1986 to 1992 (Messier's peak):
    1. Lemieux
    2. Gretzky
    3. Yzerman
    4. Messier
    (the diff. between Yzerman and Messier here is 0.08 PPG)

    PPG 1982 to 1996 (Messier's "extended" prime):
    1. Gretzky
    2. Lemieux
    3. Yzerman
    4. Messier
    (I'm discounting both Bossy and Lindros here as they don't have enough seasons inclusive)



    So, again, very similar results over peak and extended periods. Yzerman did reach an offensive level briefly during about 1987-1989 that Messier never quite did, but then again Messier finished 2nd in scoring, which Yzerman never did, and Messier won two Hart trophies, which Yzerman never did.
     
  10. bobholly39

    bobholly39 Registered User

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    I think Raw point totals absolutely should hold a lot of importance. They played during the same years, why shouldn't we consider those?

    It's one thing to adjust raw totals across eras, but from season to season i think it's fine to look at those.
     
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  11. bobholly39

    bobholly39 Registered User

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    Your initial questioning was about Yzerman's peak/prime being offensively better than Messier. When I saw you say "peak/prime" I take that as the best 3-5 years or so.

    Yzerman declined a lot offensively (or at least started playing more defensively minded) in the 90s. So sure - if you include those years too to bring his average down maybe Messier catches up. But when I think of Yzerman's prime offensive years i tend to look at 1988-1994. And I think those years are a clear step above Messier's best offensively (without playoffs )
     
  12. Theokritos

    Theokritos Moderator

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    If they literally put those numbers up in the very same seasons, then yes. But then I'd would be helpful if you pointed this out specifically resp. made a direct comparison between those seasons to show that the difference wasn't that small when one was 2nd in scoring and the other 3rd.
     
  13. Jim MacDonald

    Jim MacDonald Registered User

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    lol...play "Dr. Frankenstein" in a sense..."it's alive!!! it's alive!!!"
     
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  14. Killion

    Killion Global Moderator

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    ...................... zaxtly. :frank:
     
  15. Thenameless

    Thenameless Registered User

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    Offense-only, give it to Yzerman or he'd have almost nothing on Messier. We really need to consider the teams that they played for. Imagine switching the teams that they started their careers in. I'm sure you can see the same thing. Imagine Yzerman with Gretzky, Kurri, Anderson, and Coffey. I see some pretty gaudy numbers here. I know you like to say that having lots of scorers on one team doesn't always end up getting more points for the individuals, but I think that in this particular case it would have. Yzerman was a better passer than Messier, he just didn't have the guys to pass to during his early career.

    Messier was obviously the more complete player. Better skater, better wrist-shot, better forechecker, better defender (for most of his career), more physical would already be wrong (as Yzerman wasn't even physical), and just plain scary. Better for Edmonton, as they already had Gretzky.
     
  16. Jim MacDonald

    Jim MacDonald Registered User

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    hahahaha!! I have zero emoji game so this was epic!!!
     
  17. Jim MacDonald

    Jim MacDonald Registered User

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    A couple of other hockey fans/posters (the homey Panther being one I believe) mentioned Moose as a better skater then Stevie Y......I don't know about that gang....pre knee-injury Stevie was more of the fun/flashy player....I think you have to be pretty good on skates to do that...Joey Kocur said his teammates nicknamed Yzerman "Silk" because he was such a smooth skater....The skating category has to be a checkmark to Stevie Y.
     
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  18. The Panther

    The Panther Registered User

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    Just to nitpick, Messier finished 2nd in NHL scoring without Gretzky or Coffey on his team.
     
  19. The Panther

    The Panther Registered User

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    I see where you're coming from.

    I guess I will concede that Yzerman had a higher peak than Messier.

    (It still seems odd to say that the guy who finished 2nd in scoring and won two Hart trophies in three years had a lower peak than the guy who did none of those things.)
     
  20. 2LeftSkates

    2LeftSkates Registered User

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    [QUOTE="BenchBrawl, post: 144623021, member: 106885]"Messier has been rising on my list for a few years.Ignoring the tricky Crosby case, I have Messier 5th greatest center of all-time, behind Morenz, Béliveau, Lemieux and Gretzky.[/QUOTE]
    You must be kidding, right?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2018 at 3:14 PM
  21. quoipourquoi

    quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Thinking that Mark Messier is the 5th best Center in history hasn't been an uncommon opinion for about 20 years now...
     
  22. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    I think Sakic vs Messier is a better conparison. I'd still take Messier, but at least Sakic has an argument based on his longevity as a top offensive player. Yzerman was a step below both.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018 at 6:58 PM
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  23. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Higher peak offensively, yes. Higher peak overall, though?
     
  24. BenchBrawl

    BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

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    No

    Who do you think is better than Messier? Mikita? Clarke? Trottier? Sakic? Esposito? Nighbor? Yzerman?! Messier has a clear case against all of them, and IMO a strong one.

    Messier managed to stamp his name into mega-superstardom despite peaking in the intersection of Gretzky's and Lemieux' prime.To accumulate that much star power in this situation says a lot (in fairness, this is a great spot to make a name for yourself if you come out looking good beside those guys in their prime).He has great longevity, great all-around and heart-and-soul style of play, and really great playoffs.

    Crosby might be better, but my post was excluding him from the conversation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018 at 7:35 PM
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  25. Thenameless

    Thenameless Registered User

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    Higher peak overall would likely be Messier. Yzerman edges him on offense, and the rest goes to Messier.
     

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