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alanschu

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Aug 12, 2005
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I don't know. That's a pretty pricy dman to have when you're unsure if you have to shelter him at ES.

I didn't really factor in price when you brought it up. $5 million is a bit much.

I was reminded of a conversation I had with a friend who talked about getting Souray, and I said I wouldn't mind Souray if he wasn't the only defenseman that came. No dollar figures were thrown around though.
 

momentai

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I was meaning 4 for Souray and 5 for Rafalski. But still, it is a bit of an over-payment perhaps but the Oilers desperately need a PP-QB and Souray would be fine in that department and would be good at blocking shots and he's strong as an ox.

The Oilers cannot afford both assuming that the Oilers are operating under a self-imposed cap. It would not be possible to acquire both in those circumstances.

It's just not a very efficient use of the salary resources the Oilers have left. I think we can probably do better than spending 4 million on a pp specialist. Heck, if we could brainwash MacT into always sticking 4 or 5 forwards on each pp... then the PP dman issue becomes less prominant.

And I hope no one advocates picking up Tom Preissing as a possible PP dman. He'll be expensive based on the gaudy numbers he's put up this season. He's playing 3rd pairing ES time with OTT right now with Schubert and it will be very risky to expect him to be as productive playing a more difficult role in EDM.
 

alanschu

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I love how you all sit there rip me for saying that he is not a good hockey player and the one argument is he scores garbage goals, well since when does being the best ONE THING while being average to bad at so many other skills makes you a great hockey player?

I guess it depends on whether or not he's as bad at those other skills as you suggest.

Added to that if he was that good at everything else do you not think that he woul dbe worth the 6 mill he asked for and Lowe would have had no problem giving it to him.

This is an a priori comment and doesn't mean much unfortunately.
 

gr8haluschak

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Jul 25, 2004
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I guess it depends on whether or not he's as bad at those other skills as you suggest.
.

-How many times in a game does he get a pass and it bounces off his stick ? that is a sign he is not good at accepting passes.
-How many rushes does he lead and how many times does he dish off the puck very quickly after he receives a pass ? Many times and if you look most of the time it is because all of a sudden the opposition is right on him. Added to that is he reall that fast ? is he really that agile ? all of these things point to not good skater
-How many times do you actually see him drive to the net with the puck ? very rarely, why ? Simple because he tries to go around the d man with the one hand on his stick yet his free hand in no where near it is supose to be to protect the puck and as a result the puck is knocked off yet again.
-How many times do you see him get a real good shot off when he does not have time to set up ?
 

Magnus

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You're obfuscrating the oringinal point, ie. Roloson vs. Smyth. Why did it make sense to pay one and not the other, IF the reason Smyth wasn't signed was because of his age.

I mentioned this before in another thread, but the answer to this is easy. Roloson, along with Pronger and Pisani, carried the team on their shoulders to one win away from the Stanley cup. Has Smyth ever done anything of the sort? I didn't see Smyth proving he was worth $6 million last spring when we desperately needed a goal. He had 16 points in 24 games during the playoffs and was -2. That's only 5 more points than Torres or Peca, who were playing on the checking line. Now, I'm not here to bash Smyth or his performance. But, its clear that he's always been a good supporting player, but has never stepped up to lead the team. And that's what I expect from someone who wants more than $5 million. Yes, he was leading the team in points this year... but I'm sure it isn't coincidence that this is his season before free agency as well.
So yes, Roloson proved that he can be a huge difference maker in a game. And so he was paid accordingly. And yet Smyth believed he was worth far more. I don't think age had a whole lot to do with it, although I do think that there is a far greater ratio of goaltenders who have proven to still be effective despite nearing the age of 40 (Belfour, Hasek, Cujo). How many forwards have done the same? Sakic is the only forward I can think of who is still excelling at that age.

You can blame everyone for making excuses for Lowe, but at the same time you very clearly fail to see the realities of the situations. Like I said before, you simplify things far too much to the point that the only answer that you can come to is that Lowe is a bad GM. Edmonton isn't a hot-spot for free agents. What can Lowe do about that? He's already said that he'll try to take a more hands-on approach to make the city more inviting, but that's really all he can do. Teams weren't offering star players in exchange for Pronger. How is that his fault? As much as you want to cling to the belief that some team must have offered a Havlat-type player, it clearly wasn't so. You bring up Atlanta. Would Atlanta be a better team with Pronger instead of Hossa? That's questionable. Would Pronger have made the team more exciting than Hossa has, thus attracting more fans to a team that needed to draw fan interest? No.

Finally, about Eaton. You keep saying Lowe should have signed an experienced vet to help the young defence. He did. He signed a player that is better than Eaton. His name is Daniel Tjarnqvist. Should he have signed someone else as well? Yeah, probably. I was really hoping we'd sign Sean Hill. But this insistance on Eaton perplexes me. He would have brought nothing that Hejda, Tjarnqvist or Smid don't already provide.
 

alanschu

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How many times in a game does he get a pass and it bounces off his stick ?

I don't know. How many times in a games does this happen?

How many rushes does he lead and how many times does he dish off the puck very quickly after he receives a pass ?

Not sure what this has to do with his skill level. Just tells me he passes the puck quickly. Should he keep the puck on his stick if the opposition is suddenly on him?

How many times do you actually see him drive to the net with the puck ? very rarely, why ?

I'm guessing this might have something to do with him driving the net without the puck so frequently.

How many times do you see him get a real good shot off when he does not have time to set up ?

Considering he lives in front of the net, he probably doesn't get nearly as many opportunities to do something like this as a perimeter player.
 

Gusher

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The Oilers cannot afford both assuming that the Oilers are operating under a self-imposed cap. It would not be possible to acquire both in those circumstances.

It's just not a very efficient use of the salary resources the Oilers have left. I think we can probably do better than spending 4 million on a pp specialist. Heck, if we could brainwash MacT into always sticking 4 or 5 forwards on each pp... then the PP dman issue becomes less prominant.

And I hope no one advocates picking up Tom Preissing as a possible PP dman. He'll be expensive based on the gaudy numbers he's put up this season. He's playing 3rd pairing ES time with OTT right now with Schubert and it will be very risky to expect him to be as productive playing a more difficult role in EDM.

We keep mis-understanging each other me thinks. ;) I was saying one or the other would help this team. Souray at 4 or Rafalski at 5 or other options. Was just mentioning a couple off the top of my head. :dunno:
 

Gunner8811

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-How many times in a game does he get a pass and it bounces off his stick ? that is a sign he is not good at accepting passes.
-How many rushes does he lead and how many times does he dish off the puck very quickly after he receives a pass ? Many times and if you look most of the time it is because all of a sudden the opposition is right on him. Added to that is he reall that fast ? is he really that agile ? all of these things point to not good skater
-How many times do you actually see him drive to the net with the puck ? very rarely, why ? Simple because he tries to go around the d man with the one hand on his stick yet his free hand in no where near it is supose to be to protect the puck and as a result the puck is knocked off yet again.
-How many times do you see him get a real good shot off when he does not have time to set up ?
I'm gonna respond to this in the same way that the great gr8haluschak would. "You have got be kidding me. Do you even watch the NHL at all? your post is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read"
There thats how you would start your response by calling down the poster then you go on to give you opinion like it the only one that matters.
If Smyth is such a crappy hockey player and has no skill besides tipping the puck in why is it that everyone said he was the biggest impact player traded at the dealine. I dunno but there was some pretty good players traded at the deadline. Why is it that 10-15 teams are gonna be making Smyth offers and all are probably going to be over 5 million per.
You know lots of times I agree with what you post but cant handle how you ram your opinion down everyones throat like its the only opinion that matters. This post though you are way base in doing nothing but trashing an all-star player that represents Canada numerous times at the worlds and played on 2 olympic teams.
The way you talk about Smyth I almost find it hard to believe he has even had an NHL career.
 

Vagabond

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if you actually read he is the best at what he does that is it, NO ONE HAS SAID ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT I SAID

BLAH!

Is he a good skater ?

He's actually a decent skater. Ever see him skate the puck into the opposition zone, he's amazing at evading hits while managing to keep the puck with him. So.. yes, I'd say he's a good skater.

Is he good at accepting passes ?

That's how Smyth plays. Ever notice the reason in why he accepts his passes that way. He likes to push the puck ahead to gain further speed. He doesn't miss many passes either, have you noticed that? Who cares how he accepts his passes as long as it works for him and the team.


Is he good at driving to the net with the puck ?

Actually I think that would be one of his strong suits. Smyth drives to the net with reckless abandon. Thanks for pointing that one out though.

Is he really that good at shooting and overall passing ?

I'd say his shooting is far from the greatest, but I see nothing wrong with his passing.

If he is not good at any of those then how good of a hockey player is he ?

BLAH!



Somebody give this hapless child some love. Did your mother not breastfeed you when you were an infant? You can come over to my place, daddy has a big nipple for ya.
 
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gr8haluschak

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He's actually a decent skater. Ever see him skate the puck into the opposition zone, he's amazing at evading hits while managing to keep the puck with him. So.. yes, I'd say he's a good skater..

A decent skater, if he was decent why is it when he gets the puck in the neutral zone guys are on him right away, bvut yeah he is he a great skater. Added to that how many races to the puck does he win ? finally go to youtube and watch his highlites and tell me how quickly does the defender close the gap on him, if he was such a good skater then would you expect that gap to be closed so quick ?


That's how Smyth plays. Ever notice the reason in why he accepts his passes that way. He likes to push the puck ahead to gain further speed. He doesn't miss many passes either, have you noticed that? Who cares how he accepts his passes as long as it works for him and the team...

That is great he accepts it that way when someone headmans it to him, but how effective is it ? the only time it works is when he has a hell of a lot of space and that is few abd far between. How about when he is in the offensive zone, pucks bouncing off your stick does not do ____ for the team, it only helps the opposition get it out faster.

Actually I think that would be one of his strong suits. Smyth drives to the net with reckless abandon. Thanks for pointing that one out though.
...

READ THE DAMN WORDS, how many times does he do it WITH THE PUCK , NEVER it is almost always knocked off his stick before he even turns in on the defense, he drives great without the puck: stick on the ice not behind the goalie's line so if the rebound comes out he is there.
 
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Vagabond

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A decent skater, if he was decent why is it when he gets the puck in the neutral zone guys are on him right away, bvut yeah he is he a great skater. Added to that how many races to the puck does he win ?




That is great he accepts it that way when someone headmans it to him, but how effective is it ? the only time it works is when he has a hell of a lot of space and that is few abd far between. How about when he is in the offensive zone, pucks bouncing off your stick does not do ____ for the team, it only helps the opposition get it out faster.



READ THE DAMN WORDS, how many times does he do it WITH THE PUCK , NEVER it is almost always knocked off his stick before he even turns in on the defense, he drives great without the puck: stick on the ice not behind the goalie's line so if the rebound comes out he is there.


I TOLD YOU I HAVE AN OVER-SIZED NIPPLE FOR YOU!

Edit: Perhaps I should have been more specific; I meant with the puck! I've seen it many times where Smyth cuts for the net WITH THE PUCK.

Look what you did, you got me using caps..
 

gr8haluschak

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Jul 25, 2004
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I'm gonna respond to this in the same way that the great gr8haluschak would. "You have got be kidding me. Do you even watch the NHL at all? your post is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read"
There thats how you would start your response by calling down the poster then you go on to give you opinion like it the only one that matters.
If Smyth is such a crappy hockey player and has no skill besides tipping the puck in why is it that everyone said he was the biggest impact player traded at the dealine. I dunno but there was some pretty good players traded at the deadline. Why is it that 10-15 teams are gonna be making Smyth offers and all are probably going to be over 5 million per.
You know lots of times I agree with what you post but cant handle how you ram your opinion down everyones throat like its the only opinion that matters. This post though you are way base in doing nothing but trashing an all-star player that represents Canada numerous times at the worlds and played on 2 olympic teams.
The way you talk about Smyth I almost find it hard to believe he has even had an NHL career.

OK How the hell am I trashing Smyth, because I question his all around hockey skill ? The is nodoubt infront of the net he is the best in the NHL NO WHERE did I say he was not, hell he has great heart as well but once again if he was not the best at infront of the net then how many goals does he get ? 3-5 tops, now tell me what other 5 goal scores are great hockey players ? does that make Marty Reasoner great ? no ofcourse not. Added to that he was an all star how many times and when he played on Canada how successful was he in terms of scoring and such ? in 2 olympics he had no goals (and in 78 int games he had 18 total goals) why is that ? could it be that it is harder to do what he does in the international level since he has less leeway infront of the net. Added to that why was he the most talked about player at the deadline because he was the heart and soul of the oilers, he was the biggest impact player for the reason he is heads and tails the best at what he does.
 
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gr8haluschak

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Jul 25, 2004
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I TOLD YOU I HAVE AN OVER-SIZED NIPPLE FOR YOU!

Edit: Perhaps I should have been more specific; I meant with the puck! I've seen it many times where Smyth cuts for the net WITH THE PUCK.

Look what you did, you got me using caps..

he cuts to the net great how many times does that d man knock the puck off his stick ? for the 1 time he does it successfully there are 9 times it gets knocked off the puck.
 

Gunner8811

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Aug 29, 2005
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OK How the hell am I trashing Smyth, because I question his all around hockey skill ? The is nodoubt infront of the net he is the best in the NHL NO WHERE did I say he was not, hell he has great heart as well but once again if he was not the best at infront of the net then how many goals does he get ? 3-5 tops, now tell me what other 5 goal scores are great hockey players ? does that make Marty Reasoner great ? no ofcourse not. Added to that he was an all star how many times and when he played on Canada how successful was he in terms of scoring and such ? in 2 olympics he had no goals (and in 78 int games he had 18 total goals) why is that ? could it be that it is harder to do what he does in the international level since he has less leeway infront of the net. Added to that why was he the most talked about player at the deadline because he was the heart and soul of the oilers, he was the biggest impact player for the reason he is heads and tails the best at what he does.
Your losing it great gr8haluschak. I think soon I wont be able to call you the great gr8haluschak. Just one question is he a 5 goal scorer?..... no he's not he's a back to back 30 goal scorer. Does it make any difference really how he scores goals? Goals win games and he scores them. As for the olympics, Youd think Canada has a pretty strong team seeing how they won the gold, so how does this hockey player with no skill play on that team when it only takes 25 guys out of ....I dunno about 300-350 players from the NHL? Iguess they just needed a really good puck tipper for the front of the net. I also guess that must be what the 15 teams that want to sign him this summer are looking for ..."is a good puck tipper".
Smyth might not be worth 5.5 million on any other team in the NHL but on the Oilers he is, and good luck trying to replace a guy like him that wants to play here and at a high level.
 

gr8haluschak

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Jul 25, 2004
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Your losing it great gr8haluschak. I think soon I wont be able to call you the great gr8haluschak. Just one question is he a 5 goal scorer?..... no he's not he's a back to back 30 goal scorer. Does it make any difference really how he scores goals? Goals win games and he scores them. As for the olympics, Youd think Canada has a pretty strong team seeing how they won the gold, so how does this hockey player with no skill play on that team when it only takes 25 guys out of ....I dunno about 300-350 players from the NHL? Iguess they just needed a really good puck tipper for the front of the net. I also guess that must be what the 15 teams that want to sign him this summer are looking for ..."is a good puck tipper".
Smyth might not be worth 5.5 million on any other team in the NHL but on the Oilers he is, and good luck trying to replace a guy like him that wants to play here and at a high level.

Do people seriously read, because I would like to know where I knock him for the type of player he is. All I stated is if he is not the best at what he does what is he - an average hockey player at best. Take away the typical Smyth goals and what is he then ? that is all I am asking. Since you all think he is this great all around player he should be good at something else and what is it ? What are all these teams that are going to be lining up for him are going to ask for him to do ? He is being signed because he scores goals and how does he do it by tipping in the puck and cleaning up the garbage. They are not signing him because he is a great skater and they are not signing him because he sets people up or has a deadly one timer. Then you want to talk about him playing for Canada, if he was so good at everything else don't you think he would have been able put up better numbers that he has ?
 

alanschu

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Aug 12, 2005
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All I stated is if he is not the best at what he does what is he - an average hockey player at best

Though he is the best at what he does. Why take away Smyth's typical goals? It's not like they count any less. It'd be like taking away the goals that Joe Sakic scores with his deadly wrist shot.
 

Vagabond

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Dec 24, 2004
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Though he is the best at what he does. Why take away Smyth's typical goals? It's not like they count any less. It'd be like taking away the goals that Joe Sakic scores with his deadly wrist shot.

Exactly.




Do people seriously read, because I would like to know where I knock him for the type of player he is. All I stated is if he is not the best at what he does what is he - an average hockey player at best. Take away the typical Smyth goals and what is he then ? that is all I am asking. Since you all think he is this great all around player he should be good at something else and what is it ? What are all these teams that are going to be lining up for him are going to ask for him to do ? He is being signed because he scores goals and how does he do it by tipping in the puck and cleaning up the garbage. They are not signing him because he is a great skater and they are not signing him because he sets people up or has a deadly one timer. Then you want to talk about him playing for Canada, if he was so good at everything else don't you think he would have been able put up better numbers that he has ?

You take away Sakic's wrister, what is he, is he just average?

You take away Hull's one-timer goals, what is he, is he just average?

You take away that MacInnis Slapper, what is he, is he just average?

You take away Oates/Francis/Hemsky's passes, what are they, are they just average?

You take away Denis Savard's stick handling away, what is he, is he just average?

The fact is; you take away almost every players top asset away from them, you'll find that particular player becomes average. There are very few exceptions like The Great One, Howe, Super Mario... where that would not quite be the case. Although, The Great One wouldn't be so great and Super Mario wouldn't be so Super.
 

Mizral

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Poor Lowe. I actually defended him on the Weight trade, but in hindsight, he messed that up too. I was one of the apologists who engaged in long discussions with Mizral about how Weight screwed us by only wanting to go to St.Louis or Detroit. I've done enough apologizing.

w00t. :D

Okay so seriously, Lowe has his ups and downs. He has done well in a few deals, and he has gotten some good players in some of his bigger deals. But at the same time, you wonder if GM's out there almost like dealing with him.

He has a history of taking valuable guys in deal that turn into nothing. Though I applauded him for getting Lupul, I think I may have been wrong about that one. At least it looks like it so far.

If you evaluate Lowe based only on his trades, I think he has a very poor history. There are worse out there, but I'd say he's certainly below .500 in player value. He also hasn't been able to fill holes when he is forced to lose those guys. It's tough, but you have to do it.

I think at this point the Oilers need a change before things get worse. And yes, they can go well down from here.
 

Replacement*

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Bump. It's like deja vu all over again.

Afairc Tambo sent one of these as well one or two years. Really it seems like at least once a year the club is apologizing for its atrocity.

But it is scary how you will find the same people saying things 7 yrs ago that they'd be saying now.
 

StoveTopStauffer

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The Pronger trade wasn't terrible, I still feel Lupul will be a solid player ... but you're right.

If the goal was to win a Cup anytime soon, the move to make was Pronger for Luongo, 100% all the way. That guy is every bit as valuable as Pronger, if not moreso, he just does it in the net. Vancouver, as much as I hate to say it, will compete for the Cup this year and probably for the next several years because of him.

Remember when we used to love to play against Vancouver? Now they're as tough as opponent for us as Calgary is, if not moreso. Luongo is far better than any of UFAs or RFAs available on the market this summer IMO.

Good read on Lupul lol. Wonder where we would be with Luongo.
 
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