Meeting over--nhlpa statement may 26

[norrisnick]

Some one explain to me again why these floor/ceiling numbers mean all that much. I may feel like an idiot for asking once I see the answer, but right now I am wondering if there is a 54% linked to revenue agreement (I know, there is not one, but assume that we get there for this question) then I could see vicious arguments over what constitutes revenue, what legit expenses there are, etc etc, but not about Floor/celing numbers. At the end of the day don't the players end up with 54% no matter the cap/ceiling? Even in year one they will get a rebate back after revenues are calculated, that is how the NFL does it I think.

So where am I going wrong in thinking that the Floor/Ceiling numbers mean next to nothing?

I'd guess it is because(as far as I know) the 54% lies in the middle of the two limits. You could achieve league-wide 54% revenue spending by having a handful of teams crack $100M and the rest at $10M. It's all to keep the difference as small as reasonably possible.

 

[Mess]

Anyone else looking forward to watching Messenger go into "spin overdrive" when the actual terms of the CBA are announced?

Pure entertainment.

Check it out Stan Fischler is busting your bubble ..

Pessimists have lead

The optimists took a stiff body check on Wednesday in the eternal NHL-NHLPA war.

The pessimists still have the lead.

And, as long as no new collective bargaining agreement is sealed the pessimists will prevail. That was the gist of Wednesday's events in Chicago.

Just when it appeared as if substantial traction was about to be made in settling hockey's civil war, the A — as in agreement — train ground to a halt.

Based on the first of two days of meetings in the Windy City, the union appears in no rush to make a deal. Apparently NHLPA boss Bob Goodenow is continuing his stalling tactics on the assumption that his side has more leverage than the league.

"The players' association is acting as if it is in absolutely no rush," a negotiator tells me.

"It was totally uneventful," one participant tells me. "The issues we discussed could easily have been dealt with after we negotiated the more important ones.

Most of Wednesday was consumed with accounting issues.

Full Story: http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/story/3641352

I call the way I see them .. You can blame me if you want .. but in this case I am giving you a pro-owner shill article to support my Goodenow is in no hurry theory..

 

[cbjfan]

Check it out Stan Fischler is busting you bubble ..


I call the way I see them ..

The deadline hunting worked so well in February for Goodenow that I guess he is trying it again

 

[Timmy]

The deadline hunting worked so well in February for Goodenow that I guess he is trying it again

It's a secret ploy to allow the players to take a two-year sabbatical, during which time they can:

a) Learn new languages such as Swedish and Russian;

b) Spend more time with their family and trying to help their kids with their homework;

c) Let their wives strip for them for a change;

d) Spend more time with their dogs;

e) Learn new skills which will benefit them after their hockey career is over (such as math);

f) Re-learn the value of money;

g) Do their bit for the environment by parking the H2 for awhile;

h) Do Japanese commercials for Poki Sticks;

i) Broaden their acting abilities and learn how to use other emotions other than "outraged" and "insulted";

j) Helping the economy by starting up their own businesses and employing people at minimum wage; and

k) Enjoying the monotony of having their wives wear the same pair of shoes twice.

 

[mr gib]

Check it out Stan Fischler is busting your bubble ..

I call the way I see them .. You can blame me if you want .. but in this case I am giving you a pro-owner shill article to support my Goodenow is in no hurry theory..

ol stan was just on the team 1040 doom and glooming linden has brought in shanahan and a few others to stare down bob if he starts stalling he also said with bob at the helm there will be no deal

 

[X-SHARKIE]

Fox sports net article says that a NHL negotiator said that they're stalling.

Yet Daley publically sed that they continued to make progress this week.

Take it with a grain of salt when the "sources" speak. I'll go with Daley on this one, since he said progress, and that Ted Saskin didn't speek so negatively of the meetings.

I hope next week two-three good meetings with Bob and Gary happen.

 

[GKJ]

Fox sports net article says that a NHL negotiator said that they're stalling.

Yet Daley publically sed that they continued to make progress this week.

Take it with a grain of salt when the "sources" speak. I'll go with Daley on this one, since he said progress, and that Ted Saskin didn't speek so negatively of the meetings.

I hope next week two-three good meetings with Bob and Gary happen.

If there is really stalling tactics going on, then Daly is just coming out and saying this just to make the PA look bad later on, once again worrying about the PR battle.

 

[Mess]

Fox sports net article says that a NHL negotiator said that they're stalling.

Yet Daley publically sed that they continued to make progress this week.

Take it with a grain of salt when the "sources" speak. I'll go with Daley on this one, since he said progress, and that Ted Saskin didn't speek so negatively of the meetings.

I hope next week two-three good meetings with Bob and Gary happen.

Bill Daly also did some quick back tracking as well

When contacted by the Post, Daly appeared to back away a bit from his earlier comments.

"Obviously, the sooner we can get this done and behind us, the better off we'll all be," he told the Post by email. "We'll have to see if we can continue to make progress. It's really too early to say when a deal could be concluded.

"We didn't get anything resolved, per se, but I thought we had a good, productive week of meetings last week," Daly added to the Post. "Hopefully, we can continue and build off of that."

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=125870&hubName=nhl

We didn't get anything resolved !!!

That really doesn't support todays closer then we have ever been articles, or made progress for that matter .. They had a 22 hour bargaining session and nothing resolved was the conclusion .. That sounds more like the old "NO PROGRESS made" speech .. NO ??

 

[NYIsles1*]

This is not over yet .. Remember the NHLPA tossed a 30-50 range on the table and got a 22 -34 range back .. The NHLPA floor is the NHL's ceiling.. SO I wouldn't say we are too close based on that, and that is all anyone outside of the bargaining group has to go on..

I agree.

The season was cancelled with the reported numbers at 42.5m vs 49m with salary exemptions to 53.9m. Considering that and the reported NHLPA offer of a range of
30-50m on April 9th it seems impossible Goodenow within a month would accept a 22-34m scale, when he likely has a better chance at breaking the league in court or winning lawsuits designed to make players unrestricted entering their prime.

Between that, the usual unreliable souces, coflicting reports and the media selling their agendas to support one side or the other (Brooks/Fischler) I do not see where the progress is here unless it's on peripheral issues.

 

[old kummelweck]

groundhog day

 

[mackdogs*]

.....
c) Let their wives strip for them for a change;
.....

Oh man what a great post. This one had me gasping for air. I would have taken a more direct approach - Have sex with their wives for a change but I like your style! Ahh levity... how I miss it.

 

[Mess]

I agree.

The season was cancelled with the reported numbers at 42.5m vs 49m with salary exemptions to 53.9m. Considering that and the reported NHLPA offer of a range of
30-50m on April 9th it seems impossible Goodenow within a month would accept a 22-34m scale, when he likely has a better chance at breaking the league in court or winning lawsuits designed to make players unrestricted entering their prime.

Between that, the usual unreliable souces, coflicting reports and the media selling their agendas to support one side or the other (Brooks/Fischler) I do not see where the progress is here unless it's on peripheral issues.

The time of year more so even .. This is the offseason for players .. They are off at disneyland with there families or out at the cabin .. There is no pressure from a NHLPA loss of wages standpoint .. As you say Goodenow caving to those levels would have no bases at all this time of year .. If another season was about to be lost maybe but not now IMO ..

If the union breaks and excepts a current deal then Goodenow would have had not part in that .. IMO.

 

[blamebettman*]

we have made progress in the fact that Daly isn't whining and filing complaints quite as often as he used to.

 

[Jarqui]

If you believe that then doesn't that contradict you earlier position "If true, it doesn't make Goodenow's decision to turn down the NHL February offer look too hot."

Which is what I have been trying to convince you of all along??.. That without the ending its too early to close the polls and decalre anything.

For all we know this is just posturing on the part of the NHLPA.. Just coming to meetings as requested in hopes of avoiding IMPASSE and to perhaps gain a little leverage with unsigned draft picks and RFA without qualifying offers becoming CBA negotiated issues in a months time, that can be traded for concessions for a better NHLPA CBA .. I wouldn't put that past Goodenow 1 bit .. This is the off season and players are not missing contract money now .. This is the time that is the easiest to keep them unified .. and as September approaches that changes.

This is not over yet .. Remember the NHLPA tossed a 30-50 range on the table and got a 22 -34 range back .. The NHLPA floor is the NHL's ceiling.. SO I wouldn't say we are too close based on that, and that is all anyone outside of the bargaining group has to go on..

Again: IF TRUE The agent stated that the 22-34 range is where they are both at. As has also been reported, they are now looking at the revenues for linkage issues/formula and other stuff. Once they are at a $34 mil cap with team caps between 22-34 mil, then NHLPA party is largely over relative to the February offer of $42.5. The max average under the $34 mil cap is $34 mil. The max average under the $42.5 cap is a much higher potential.

There are many other issues to debate or discuss but if cost certainty is set at $34 mil max, the major financial impact of those other issues is already limited.

The pie is 10-20% smaller and the players salaries will drop an extra 10-20% of whatever it would have been in February to reflect that or there will be no deal until they do.

 

[Mess]

There are many other issues to debate or discuss but if cost certainty is set at $34 mil max, the major financial impact of those other issues is already limited.

.

Cost certainty ..

Before popping any champagne, bear in mind that the all-important traction must move into higher gear this week when the CBA meetings resume; likely Wednesday and Thursday.

The wild card remains the same; NHLPA boss, Bob Goodenow.

His negotiating machinations leave analysts baffled.

My contention is that he is still in control and simply will never do a deal that combines a salary cap and linkage.

"Goodenow really doesn't want to make a deal," a high team official tells me.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/story/3635388

&

Soundings from the union side have been less clear and less hopeful.

When a player agent suggested on Tuesday to an NHLPA attorney in Toronto that it appears as if the warring factions, at last, are en route to a deal, the unionist shot back, disparagingly, "Don't be so sure!"

However, in assessing the union boss it is important to remember two key factors when it comes to the possibility of an anti-Bob putsch.

1) He has successfully resisted opponents in the past; and 2) he retains a loyal following who remember how he defeated NHL negotiators in 1992 and again in 1995.

With June just a calendar flip away — and with the sands disappearing down the NHL hour glass — urgency would seem to be the order of the day. That is, presuming of course, that Goodenow really wants to make a deal.

Many NHL leaders, including Devellano, remain perplexed by Goodenow's apparent intransigence and reluctance to more vigorously negotiate.

Reports continue filtering in about NHLPA membership dismay with Goodenow's failure to aggressively hammer out a pact now that progress on several issues has been made. But so far, Goodenow seems to be running the union show.

 

[txomisc]

Cost certainty ..

Is there anything good about what you quoted? I mean basically it looks to be predicting that Goodenow will be a pain in the ass and stagnate the process no matter what others want. Hopefully that would lead to his firing which would be a good thing afterall.

 

[Jarqui]

Cost certainty ..

&

If that were true re Goodenow. it doesn't stop the owners from making the players sit another year nor does it stop the players from throwing Goodenow out - which is far more likely.

The cap has aleady been on the table. If the union doesn't want linkage based on principle, the owners have to low ball the cap to cover their asses on uncertain revenues. Linkage makes the most sense now with the uncertain revenues from the lockout.

If the PA don't settle this by June 15th or so, they're looking at about 50 cents on the 2003-4 dollar when play resumes. They're at about 65 cents now. They've been stupid before so there's nothing stopping them from being stupid again.

 

[SENSible1*]

Messenger,

You completely misread the intention of my post. I wasn't suggesting a deal was imminent, just that you will be in spin hyperdrive once the terms of a deal are announced and the true scale of Goodenow's failure is revealed. If it takes place next week or in 6 months, the result will be the same.

PS How could you miss the benefit to the NHL of having their mouthpiece suggest Booby is stalling? Do you think this message might be directed at the "get a deal done" faction of the PA to increase the pressure on your hero?

 

[Mess]

Is there anything good about what you quoted? I mean basically it looks to be predicting that Goodenow will be a pain in the ass and stagnate the process no matter what others want. Hopefully that would lead to his firing which would be a good thing afterall.

All a part of the collective bargaining process ..

Who are the others you speak of ??

Insiders are wondering what Brendan Shanahan's ulterior motive could be with his sudden involvement in the NHL-CBA meetings.

After all, he is not on the Goodenow-stacked executive committee. Nor will he ever lead an anti-Bob bloc.

To some eyes, Shanny's motive may be political as much as anything; Perhaps looking for post-career work; as one associate tells us.

Seems the NHLPA committee is firmly with Bob at this point still .. Goodenow didn't even attend this week meetings after all and everyone is accusing him of stalling ..

Just reporting what I am reading ..

 

[Mess]

Messenger,

You completely misread the intention of my post. I wasn't suggesting a deal was imminent, just that you will be in spin hyperdrive once the terms of a deal are announced and the true scale of Goodenow's failure is revealed. If it takes place next week or in 6 months, the result will be the same.

PS How could you miss the benefit to the NHL of having their mouthpiece suggest Booby is stalling? Do you think this message might be directed at the "get a deal done" faction of the PA to increase the pressure on your hero?

He is not my Hero .. I want hockey back like the next person..

However I followed the CBA negotiations closely in 1992 and 1995 and both times just when the Owners thought they had Goodenow .. He beat them in the end.. He is 2-0 verses Bettman and this one is still in progress ..

Goodenow even had the owners convinced the last deal was in their favour as they went away happy.. Linden and Gartner have been with him in those battles and people are calling this committee stacked in his favour of strong support .. Brian Burke on TSN was commented on previous battles and still can't figure out how Goodenow pulled the wool over their eyes, and he is very good at what he does.

1) He has successfully resisted opponents in the past; and 2) he retains a loyal following who remember how he defeated NHL negotiators in 1992 and again in 1995.

After all, he is not on the Goodenow-stacked executive committee. Nor will he ever lead an anti-Bob bloc.

All I am saying to all you that are counting your chickens already that you need to be causious because Goodenow is not done yet .. and until the new CBA is final ... "ITS NOT OVER " ..

 

[blamebettman*]

heck, Goodenow isn't even being paid by the players! He's their because they want him to be.

I'm sure Goodenow informed the players months in advance at the tactics the NHL and there friends in the media will use to pressure the players. the threats, complaints, stalling etc been there, done that, the players are not breaking.

even this whole agenda of inevitability (the players have lost already, what is bobs exit strategy...) it's just not working, the NHLPA is still united despite the best efforts of the media and bettman.

 

[GSC2k2*]

However I followed the CBA negotiations closely in 1992 and 1995 and both times just when the Owners thought they had Goodenow .. He beat them in the end.. He is 2-0 verses Bettman and this one is still in progress ..

Weren't you still in diapers then, son?

Goodenow even had the owners convinced the last deal was in their favour as they went away happy.. Linden and Gartner have been with him in those battles and people are calling this committee stacked in his favour of strong support .. Brian Burke on TSN was commented on previous battles and still can't figure out how Goodenow pulled the wool over their eyes,

Typical revisionist history. I am sure Goodenow foresaw that Ilitch and Karmanos would have a feud culminating in the Fedorov disaster. Goodenow had precisely zip to do with the development of the rookie bonus structure developed by Curran or Meehan (my memory is shaky). He fluked into getting credit for all those things that turned out to be a player benefit.

and he is very good at what he does.

Your opinion of someone's negotiating prowess has no value whatsoever. I would bet folding money that you have not negotiated anything in your life.

All I am saying to all you that are counting your chickens already that you need to be causious because Goodenow is not done yet .. and until the new CBA is final ... "ITS NOT OVER " ..

Time will tell, all right, but like other posters I look forward to reading your posts about how the eventual deal - whenever it comes - is such a player (read Goodenow) victory.

"It's only a flesh wound"
"Your bleedin' arm's come off, you stupid B*****d!"
"No it's not. I've had worse."
"You're a loony, that's what you are."

 

[GSC2k2*]

heck, Goodenow isn't even being paid by the players! He's their because they want him to be.

I'm sure Goodenow informed the players months in advance at the tactics the NHL and there friends in the media will use to pressure the players. the threats, complaints, stalling etc been there, done that, the players are not breaking.

even this whole agenda of inevitability (the players have lost already, what is bobs exit strategy...) it's just not working, the NHLPA is still united despite the best efforts of the media and bettman.

I think we've already heard from the twelve-year-old caucus on the board, chum.

Stalling, indeed. How droll.

 

[blamebettman*]

I think we've already heard from the twelve-year-old caucus on the board, chum.

Stalling, indeed. How droll.

is this the guy who pretends to be a lawyer?

 

[GSC2k2*]

is this the guy who pretends to be a lawyer?

Pretends?!?!?