Blue Jays Discussion: Meaningful Baseball Continues

[Discoverer]

So if you are standing in a stationary position and I'm running at you full tilt and slide at your legs with my feet down and legs down, I have zero chance to hurt you? Your legs wouldn't buckle and your knees wouldn't bend the way the good Lord didn't intend for them to go? Good to know.

There are two major, major differences here that most reasonable people can see.

1) If you slide with your legs and feet down, the first point of contact isn't my knee, so the chances of a severe injury are far less.

2) If you slide with your legs and feet down, it gives me a much greater chance of getting out of the way. You know... the way Odor and countless other middle infielders have when an aggressively-sliding baserunner comes towards them with their legs down.

 

[Red Piller]

Of course it is, I was clearly citing a scientific fact there...but of the tens of brawls per year, how many injuries have we seen? And major ones like this? I guarantee you the number is pretty close to 1%.

Your second paragraph directly contradicts your first paragraph. Every other team would have done it, because every other team defends their teammates when they think one has intentionally been hit. And the Jays probably did (of course I can't say for certain it was intentional, I'm not foolish enough to think I can make a factual statement for something I wasn't involved in personally), or else why didn't they retaliate or clear the benches when Donaldson was hit the other 7 times this year?

Not many because most of them are just shouting matches.

Every other team would have done it if it was justified, is what I'm saying. When you retaliate, usually its for being hit on purpose. Ive never in my life seen a team retaliate for getting HBP unintentionally.

 

[Discoverer]

I think you meant Bush hahah. Yeah Odor does stupid things. But the punch was deserved. Jose had it coming for awhile. He is not innocent in what led up to everything that happened. Texas isn't either. If nothing else it will be a fun series to watch if it happens, and that's what baseball is all about.

I'm having a really hard time understanding how Bautista "had it coming" for the slide, which involved no contact whatsoever between the two players, while the hit by pitch, which did involved contact, was ok because it wasn't intentional.

 

[Discoverer]

Ive never in my life seen a team retaliate for getting HBP unintentionally.

It happens all the time.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I think you meant Bush hahah. Yeah Odor does stupid things. But the punch was deserved. Jose had it coming for awhile. He is not innocent in what led up to everything that happened. Texas isn't either. If nothing else it will be a fun series to watch if it happens, and that's what baseball is all about.

No, I mean Odor. Who did the exact same slide Jose did while he was in A- (against Vancouver, ironically), and got up and punched the second baseman.

Not to mention he threw the ball at Jose's head as he was sliding in. But of course, that was unintentional, I imagine.

 

[Red Piller]

There are two major, major differences here that most reasonable people can see.

1) If you slide with your legs and feet down, the first point of contact isn't my knee, so the chances of a severe injury are far less.

2) If you slide with your legs and feet down, it gives me a much greater chance of getting out of the way. You know... the way Odor and countless other middle infielders have when an aggressively-sliding baserunner comes towards them with their legs down.

Noted. It was still an aggressive slide that could have caused injury though. If Jose had an issue with it he should have charged the mound. He didn't because Bush is a criminal and huge and would of got wrecked, so he thought Odor was an easier mark. He was wrong. He started his slide like a foot from the bag. He totally knew what he was doing.

 

[Eyedea]

It's not like Odor doesn't choose to put himself at risk either. The guy always keeps his leg on the bag as he throws to first to complete the double play. He never actually tries to avoid the player sliding because in (mostly) any case, like the most famous one, he can find himself getting a guaranteed double play call even if he misses the first baseman with his throw.

Not many because most of them are just shouting matches.

Every other team would have done it if it was justified, is what I'm saying. When you retaliate, usually its for being hit on purpose. Ive never in my life seen a team retaliate for getting HBP unintentionally.

This sounds entirely pretentious and there's really no other way to say it, but you should probably watch more baseball then. To think what the Jays did is a unique example to the baseball world is sensational.

 

[Red Piller]

No, I mean Odor. Who did the exact same slide Jose did while he was in A- (against Vancouver, ironically), and got up and punched the second baseman.

Not to mention he threw the ball at Jose's head as he was sliding in. But of course, that was unintentional, I imagine.

Again, not defending Odor. If you think what Jose did was fine then yeah I guess you would see it that way.

 

[Discoverer]

It was still an aggressive slide that could have caused injury though.

Yep. So is a 98 MPH up-and-in brushback pitch.

 

[Red Piller]

I'm having a really hard time understanding how Bautista "had it coming" for the slide, which involved no contact whatsoever between the two players, while the hit by pitch, which did involved contact, was ok because it wasn't intentional.

Because Jose has a big mouth? Because he is involved in this kind of stuff all the time? If you go out in public and talk **** to people, they are not going to like you. If you slide at guys a foot from the bag, you deserve to get punched in the face. Just like everyone here is fine with retaliation against the Yankees for hitting Donaldson, its fine for Odor to retaliate for a perceived slight against him, and so on.

 

[Mach85]

Not many because most of them are just shouting matches.

Every other team would have done it if it was justified, is what I'm saying. When you retaliate, usually its for being hit on purpose. Ive never in my life seen a team retaliate for getting HBP unintentionally.

You keep repeating unintentionally, and you have zero way of knowing if it that the case. When challenged on it, you just say "I've been watching baseball a long time and I know it was unintentional." The Jays haven't retaliated the other 8 times Donaldson was hit unintentionally, so why would they suddenly do so now? That's a massive flaw in your argument, and suggests the players thought it was intentional. And the players on the field have a much better perspective than you do on whether it was on purpose or not.

 

[Red Piller]

Yep. So is a 98 MPH up-and-in brushback pitch.

These are not the same thing though. Context is important.

 

[Eyedea]

These are not the same thing though. Context is important.

In the context that a 98 mph pitch up and in could kill someone or cause brain damage, yes.

 

[Red Piller]

You keep repeating unintentionally, and you have zero way of knowing if it that the case. When challenged on it, you just say "I've been watching baseball a long time and I know it was unintentional." The Jays haven't retaliated the other 8 times Donaldson was hit unintentionally, so why would they suddenly do so now? That's a massive flaw in your argument, and suggests the players thought it was intentional. And the players on the field have a much better perspective than you do on whether it was on purpose or not.

"I was disappointed when my team didn't stick up for me when I was hit the last time" pretty much says it all.

 

[Red Piller]

In the context that a 98 mph pitch up and in could kill someone or cause brain damage, yes.

It hit him in the pad, on his arm. Barely.

What ifs don't matter. Any player could get hit, at any time, by accident or on purpose. If its on purpose I'm pretty sure pitchers don't throw at your head. Guys get compensated pretty heftily to take the risks they do.

 

[Discoverer]

These are not the same thing though. Context is important.

What context? That Bautista was pissed off when it happened?

 

[Red Piller]

It's not like Odor doesn't choose to put himself at risk either. The guy always keeps his leg on the bag as he throws to first to complete the double play. He never actually tries to avoid the player sliding because in (mostly) any case, like the most famous one, he can find himself getting a guaranteed double play call even if he misses the first baseman with his throw.



This sounds entirely pretentious and there's really no other way to say it, but you should probably watch more baseball then. To think what the Jays did is a unique example to the baseball world is sensational.

I'm pretentious for saying that teams don't usually retaliate for what seemingly looks like an unintentional HBP? Kay

 

[Eyedea]

It hit him in the pad, on his arm. Barely.

What ifs don't matter. Any player could get hit, at any time, by accident or on purpose. If its on purpose I'm pretty sure pitchers don't throw at your head. Guys get compensated pretty heftily to take the risks they do.

So when speaking about context, are we including the fact that Odor is a piece of **** and instigates himself? Because what I saw was a guy that didn't like the taste of his own medicine and wanted to do something about it.

I'm pretentious for saying that teams don't usually retaliate for what seemingly looks like an unintentional HBP? Kay

What? I prefaced my own comment by saying that it sounds pretentious.

 

[Mach85]

"I was disappointed when my team didn't stick up for me when I was hit the last time" pretty much says it all.

Speculation?

 

[Discoverer]

It hit him in the pad, on his arm. Barely.

What ifs don't matter. Any player could get hit, at any time, by accident or on purpose. If its on purpose I'm pretty sure pitchers don't throw at your head. Guys get compensated pretty heftily to take the risks they do.

Which brings us full circle back to...

It was still an aggressive slide that could have caused injury though.

So which is it? Bautista "could have caused injury" or "What ifs don't matter"?

 

[ShaneFalco]

 

[Red Piller]

What context? That Bautista was pissed off when it happened?

No, that the situations are totally different? One situation is for sure going to end in a brawl. That is justified. The other is a meaningless play that ended in a brawl because of an escalation from an accidental hit by a pitch.

 

[Red Piller]

So when speaking about context, are we including the fact that Odor is a piece of **** and instigates himself? Because what I saw was a guy that didn't like the taste of his own medicine and wanted to do something about it.



What? I prefaced my own comment by saying that it sounds pretentious.

Word. Misunderstood. My bad.

One could also say Jose got some of his own medicine also.

 

[Red Piller]

Which brings us full circle back to...



So which is it? Bautista "could have caused injury" or "What ifs don't matter"?

You are taking my quotes from 2 separate arguments.

 

[Eyedea]

Word. Misunderstood. My bad.

One could also say Jose got some of his own medicine also.

Right, but the only thing that was legitimately illegal about the slide was the fact that he didn't hold onto the base. The perception that it was dirty was because he slid through it while Odor was still on the bag and eyeing down at Bautista when he had no reason to rest on top of it. That situation easily could have been avoided if Odor didn't decide to throw the ball at Bautista's head and actually stepped off the bag when he was transitioning to throw to first. Except he didn't, he chose to escalate it, not Bautista.

So yes, your two arguments do coincide and form a circular argument. You're playing the what if game with Bautista's slide when Odor initiated it, while you're ignoring the fact that Severino chose to throw high 90s up and in to Donaldson. If he didn't hit Donaldson, whether intentional or not, none of this would have happened. So again, the Jays did this to protect their MVP and to make sure pitchers knew not to throw up there to him, or anyone for that matter. They don't give a **** who you are, that's the bravado, that's the swag, the nature of this team.