McGuire says half would take Kessel and half would take Toews!

[jake1]

Here's what I don't get about the debate. People reference Kessel as the number one choice of all the recruiting services, and we should conclude that the services are a good measure of where they stand. So when RLR says, as they did last month, that they flirted with moving Toews to the number one spot, do we ignore that, or still value the services' judgement?

Likewise, Bob MacKenzie comes right out on TSN and says he heard from NHL scouts who watched the UND/MN games that Toews played just as well as Kessel. Do we assume he just made that up?

Kessel supporters trumpeted McGuire's claim of relative equality between Kessel and Crosby, but now they think he's full of it when he makes a similar comment about Toews and Kessel. So is McGuire full of it, or reasonably close to correct? Personally, I think he's winging it.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I would have to take issue with that. His sense is definitely not excellent. It's not Rico Fata, but it's not excellent either. If his hockey sense matched his pure skill, he'd be better than Wayne Gretzky.

Fair enough. I would agree his hockey sense lags behind his skills, but I still think it's above average. He's able to see the ice very well and make players around him better.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Here's what I don't get about the debate. People reference Kessel as the number one choice of all the recruiting services, and we should conclude that the services are a good measure of where they stand. So when RLR says, as they did last month, that they flirted with moving Toews to the number one spot, do we ignore that, or still value the services' judgement?

Likewise, Bob MacKenzie comes right out on TSN and says he heard from NHL scouts who watched the UND/MN games that Toews played just as well as Kessel. Do we assume he just made that up?

Kessel supporters trumpeted McGuire's claim of relative equality between Kessel and Crosby, but now they think he's full of it when he makes a similar comment about Toews and Kessel. So is McGuire full of it, or reasonably close to correct? Personally, I think he's winging it.

Fair points, although the fact remains that every scouting service has Kessel ranked number one. Will that be so at draft time? I think it's a virtual certainty if Kessel keeps playing the way he has at Minnesota and has a good WJC's.

 

[MN_Gopher]

I think he has some base. But if it was Kessel 14 and Crosby 16. Now he says 50/50 Toews/ Kessel. Would that mean it would have been. Crosby 16, Kessel 7 and Toews 7. I do beileve there were some GMs and scouts that said they would think of taking Kessel first last year. And i do beileve there are some of the same thinking about taking Toews this year. But if their team had the first choice it would have been Crosby last year and so far Kessel this year.

 

[SidTheKid32389]

Crosby > Ovechkin

If you follow his past comments, that means that:


3 3/4 GM's would take Toews.
3 3/4 GM's would take Kessel.
7 1/2 GM's would take Crosby.
15 GM's would take Ovechkin.

...I'm curious as to who is 3/4 myself.

 

[#66]

There's no doubt that Kessel needs to work on certain aspects of his game. That will come in time. If his game doesn't progress, then your concerns will have be valid. IMO though, I've seen enough progress just in 18 games to see the potential that exists. I think he'll be a great one.

I hope so the US needs a star that can carry the flag. Anyway its good to disagree with people but not have it turn out in a fight, Great Posting guys!!!

 

[KH1]

Let me sum up this whole situation in a few words:

Toews = Great
Kessel = Better
McGuire = Idiot

 

[Roccoman]

Yeah, but tell me this, McGuire...

Who will do the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs???!?!?!?!?

that, my friend, is a question for the ages

 

[ktownhockey]

I've been thinking the exact same thing. Personally, I think there are 5-6 guys that I would have no problem taking 1st overall. If it was me with the first pick, I would move down and grab Staal and some other asset for Kessel without any problem. I just don't see Kessel being that far ahead of the rest of the pack at this point. Toews, Frolik, Mueller, Johnson and Staal could all stake claim to 1st overall. The difference is that Kessel has been hyped for a few years now, the others haven't. It's just like Ovechkin/Malkin all over again. Most people went based on hype and concluded that Ovechkin was hands down the best player. Well now people are seeing that may not be the case, as many had said at the time of the draft.

I agree with most of the stuff you said, but Staal is not a top 3 pick let alone number 1.

I think it'll be Kessel, Frolik, Toews, Johnson, Mueller, Staal, Little, or something like that?

 

[turnbuckle*]

I disagree.
The bottomline is, Kessel and Toews is nothing like Ovechkin and Malkin, because Toews in particular isn't the consensus number two player in this draft, regardless of what Pierre McGuire or Bob McKenzie thinks.

Mackenzie quoted scouts about the Kessel-Toews comparison from their head-to-head matches, he wasn't offering his own opinion on how the matchup went last weekend.

Who knows - God forbid - maybe one or more of the scouts was even American.

Let's see - whose opinion should I value more on this - those of NHL scouts or those of an HF poster who almost obsessively defends America's hockey superiority over Canada way more than anyone else on this board. Hmmm.

 

[Sammy*]

Let me sum up this whole situation in a few words:

Toews = Great
Kessel = Better
McGuire = Idiot

Yeah, god forbid anybody would suggest that anyone may be the equal of the golden boy. He must be an idiot. Funny thing is, I would guess right now that there is a reasonable chance (not 50%) that Kessel will be unseated as the #1.
Is he as big an idiot though of those who think Kessel & Crosby are close as prospects?

 

[KH1]

Yeah, god forbid anybody would suggest that anyone may be the equal of the golden boy. He must be an idiot. Funny thing is, I would guess right now that there is a reasonable chance (not 50%) that Kessel will be unseated as the #1.
Is he as big an idiot though of those who think Kessel & Crosby are close as prospects?

I don't think that Kessel is anywhere near as close as Crosby. Believe it or not, suggesting that Kessel is better than Toews isn't so crazy when you consider that Kessel has consistently outperformed Toews, as good a prospect as he is.

And of course this whole fiasco has little bearing on whether or not McGuire is an idiot. That's a foregone conclusion.

 

[Hockeycanada*]

Mackenzie quoted scouts about the Kessel-Toews comparison from their head-to-head matches, he wasn't offering his own opinion on how the matchup went last weekend.

Who knows - God forbid - maybe one or more of the scouts was even American.

Let's see - whose opinion should I value more on this - those of NHL scouts or those of an HF poster who almost obsessively defends America's hockey superiority over Canada way more than anyone else on this board. Hmmm.

Great post.

 

[Transported Upstater]

Yeah, god forbid anybody would suggest that anyone may be the equal of the golden boy. He must be an idiot. Funny thing is, I would guess right now that there is a reasonable chance (not 50%) that Kessel will be unseated as the #1.
Is he as big an idiot though of those who think Kessel & Crosby are close as prospects?

Christ, calm down...


You've proven your point about Crosby many times. I think the gloating isn't necessary. And who with a brain ever thought Kessel was Crosby's equal? Certainly not me...

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Mackenzie quoted scouts about the Kessel-Toews comparison from their head-to-head matches, he wasn't offering his own opinion on how the matchup went last weekend.

Who knows - God forbid - maybe one or more of the scouts was even American.

Let's see - whose opinion should I value more on this - those of NHL scouts or those of an HF poster who almost obsessively defends America's hockey superiority over Canada way more than anyone else on this board. Hmmm.

First of all, I have NEVER claimed that the U.S. is superior to Canada in hockey. NEVER. Show me ONE instance where I've said that. As for whose opinion to value, I would agree, value the NHL scout's opinion more than mine, although they're hardly infallible. Bottomline is I'm confident that Kessel is the best prospect in this draft, will have a great WJC's and rest of the NCAA season, and will be the number one overall draft pick. You don't have to share that opinion, and that's fine.

 

[BIG GIFS]

McGuire knows nothing.

Frolik is better the Toews

Yes, cause I'm sure you have seen a lot of Frolik and Toews outside the HF hyping.

 

[edd1e]

I dont get what's the big fuss in these first picks, rarely they are the best players from that age group.

But still, my guess is Kessel

 

[Nihilism]

Let me sum up this whole situation in a few words:

Toews = Great
Kessel = Better
McGuire = Idiot

Excellent summary.

 

[espo*]

Hey why does veryone hate Maguire so much.it was the monster who got this going and it sure has been a good read and it's been a doozy to me.Everyone that posted did a real good job at clarifying their points and it was one heckuva thread.

For the record,i will stand by saying Kessel will go number 1 when all is said and done.Some guys have been making gains on closing the gap but in the end i don't think they'll make up the ground.
This has been a good read all around.

 

[Rather Gingerly 1*]

Where would Jordan Staal go in the draft? Roughly

 

[KH1]

Where would Jordan Staal go in the draft? Roughly

Staal should be a top 10 pick and I think that he can play his way into the top 5.

 

[MN_Gopher]

Seems like people are so ready to write of Kessel as a bust because he cannot do or needs to improve in certain areas. Well maybe not a bust. But more hype then content. What 18 year old doesn't. He has shown his work ethic. In the gopher combine he finished in the top 10. So he is fairly physicaly fit. He has improved every week so far. If you look at Crosbys 32 points in 32 games and a -10. Those are not that great of numbers. Will he get better. Very much. And he could have been one of the most ready prospects in some time. Kessel has not peaked yet. And that is scary.

 

[katodelder]

I think it'll be Kessel, Frolik, Toews, Johnson, Mueller, Staal, Little, or something like that?

Kessel – Blues
Frolik – Bruins
Toews – Capitals
Johnson – Jackets
Mueller – Penguins
Staal – Panthers
Little – Ducks

 

[Transported Upstater]

Seems like people are so ready to write of Kessel as a bust because he cannot do or needs to improve in certain areas. Well maybe not a bust. But more hype then content. What 18 year old doesn't. He has shown his work ethic. In the gopher combine he finished in the top 10. So he is fairly physicaly fit. He has improved every week so far. If you look at Crosbys 32 points in 32 games and a -10. Those are not that great of numbers. Will he get better. Very much. And he could have been one of the most ready prospects in some time. Kessel has not peaked yet. And that is scary.

A -10 on Pittsburgh is one of the better ones on the team.

+/- is a horrible stat that is useful in rare occasions, all of which involve comparisons to players on the same team.

 

[Sammy*]

Seems like people are so ready to write of Kessel as a bust because he cannot do or needs to improve in certain areas. Well maybe not a bust. But more hype then content. What 18 year old doesn't. He has shown his work ethic. In the gopher combine he finished in the top 10. So he is fairly physicaly fit. He has improved every week so far. If you look at Crosbys 32 points in 32 games and a -10. Those are not that great of numbers. Will he get better. Very much. And he could have been one of the most ready prospects in some time. Kessel has not peaked yet. And that is scary.

Nobody is writing off Kessel. Some are simply questioining, god forbid, if the golden boy will go #1.
I mean, its not like he is anywhere in the same category of prospect as Ovechkin or Crosby (btw, 32 points in 32 games is "great" , 18 year old or otherwise).
I think if some guy was making idiotic suggestions that Crosby & Toews were comprable prospects right now, you would get the same commentary out there about Toews. Thank god that obscene comparison hasnt started yet. That would be as ridiculous as the Kessel/ Crosby one, & have the same amount of merit.