McGuire says half would take Kessel and half would take Toews!

[Rabid Ranger]

I would tend to agree, I admit to only seeing him a few times, but the games that I've seen I haven't been that impressed. Everyone talks about how well he did at the World Juniors, especially the game he got the hat trick. Well those were just about the worst goals I've ever seen, not even your below average back up goalie would let those in, and certainly he won't be able to beat a good NHL defenseman with those moves.

Toews plays a much smarter game, and as Pierre mentioned, he does win a surprsing amount of one-on-one battles that he appears to always have the disadvantage in.

See, it's pretty clear that you haven't seen much of Kessel as he thinks the game as well as any prospect eligible this year. Somehow he's been stereotyped as purely a goalscorer with no other facets to his game, and nothing could be further from the truth. The proof is the pudding my friend, and the bottomline is Kessel produces and makes his linemates (and team) better. Toews is a nice player, but he hasn't had near the impact Kessel has.

 

[wildone26*]

Why, because of what certain people are saying on this website? I don't think so.

Trust me, I am basing that opinion on alot more than what certain people say on a website. It seems pretty much common knowledge now that Toews will be fighting Kessel for that honour.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Trust me, I am basing that opinion on alot more than what certain people say on a website. It seems pretty much common knowledge now that Toews will be fighting Kessel for that honour.

If you say so.

 

[nomorekids]

Now now, RR. Just because all the scouting services are picking Kessel to go first...as well as most "experts" doesn't mean he will!

Why, posters therealdeal and "wildone" aren't that impressed with him, and feel that good ol' canuck Jonathan Toews is better!

I mean, "wildone" even tossed a "trust me," insinuating that he has his finger on the pulse of what GMs are thinking, even things that seem far out and impossible to the rest of us schmucks. Maybe we should listen

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Now now, RR. Just because all the scouting services are picking Kessel to go first...as well as most "experts" doesn't mean he will!

Why, posters therealdeal and "wildone" aren't that impressed with him, and feel that good ol' canuck Jonathan Toews is better!

I mean, "wildone" even tossed a "trust me," insinuating that he has his finger on the pulse of what GMs are thinking, even things that seem far out and impossible to the rest of us schmucks. Maybe we should listen

I will listen! All I know is I get the same answer about Toews that I get about Frolik (the question being: What makes "x" player more worthy than Kessel to go number one?).......crickets............................crickets..................crickets.......

I especially find it humorous when certain posters say Kessel's game won't translate to the NHL but Toews' will.....

Yeah, Pavel Bure like speed, shot, and puck handling are outmoded commodities, especially in today's NHL...

 

[#66]

I will listen! All I know is I get the same answer about Toews that I get about Frolik (the question being: What makes "x" player more worthy than Kessel to go number one).......crickets............................crickets..................crickets.......

I especially find it humorous when certain poster say Kessel's game won't translate to the NHL but Toews' will.....

Yeah, Pavel Bure like speed, shot, and puck handling are outmoded commodities, especially in today's NHL...

Look at Kessels points this year and then look at Daigles draft year and you'll see a ton of similarities. He scores goals with no one around him and he hasn't beaten many defenseman 1 on 1 in college. He's scoring points because 1) He's on a stacked team and 2) He's faster than everyone else on a huge rink. He doesn't battle, he misses a ton of shots and he plays pretty poorly when the puck isn't on his stick. Those are huge question marks for someone that isn't even close to having the upside of an AO or Crosby. Kessel really needs to adjust his game to fit a pro style and when he does will he still be effective. With Toews and Frolik playing a more mature game, their game should translate better to the pros. They're just less of a question mark.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Look at Kessels points this year and then look at Daigles draft year and you'll see a ton of similarities. He scores goals with no one around him and he hasn't beaten many defenseman 1 on 1 in college. He's scoring points because 1) He's on a stacked team and 2) He's faster than everyone else on a huge rink. He doesn't battle, he misses a ton of shots and he plays pretty poorly when the puck isn't on his stick. Those are huge question marks for someone that isn't even close to having the upside of an AO or Crosby. Kessel really needs to adjust his game to fit a pro style and when he does will he still be effective. With Toews and Frolik playing a more mature game, their game should translate better to the pros. They're just less of a question mark.

1) He scores goals with no one around him? He's that fast?
2) He's on a stacked team? He's on a very young team that's been very inconsistent. He's their 2nd leading scorer despite being a freshman.
3) He's faster than anyone on any rink. Do you realize Minnesota's offense is more successful on the smaller sized rinks?
4) Lots of great players shoot alot and miss a fair amount. Look at the NHL.
5) Kessel's play away from the puck has improved a great deal since the start of the season.
6)No one knows Kessel's true upside yet. Shoot, no one knows Crosby or Ovechkin's true upside yet.
7) Kessel has adjusted his game in the short time he's been in college.
8) Why should Toews' and Frolik's game translate better to the pros than Kessel's? How are their games more "mature"? Why isn't Toews producing more than he is?

 

[#66]

If we were talking about Philori Kesselov would you even be posting?

 

[MN_Gopher]

With just gophers.

Keith Ballard. Will have to be more controlled and will not be able to throw his weight around in the NHL. Being realativly small for his style. Being right around 200 and under 6 feet.

Paul Martin. Will not translate to the NHL. To small. Not strong enough. Needs some bulking up in the AHL and may never be a regular with his size.

Thomas Vanek. Is lazy and will not score in the NHL and his lack of defense will keep in the AHL and will only amout to a draft could be. Is the next Pavel Brendl.

So i have heard it lots about gopher players. Phil is just next in line.

Phil Kessel is not scoring a league like the Q where PM Bouchard can put up 2 points a game. He scores in close. He gets tap ins and such haging around the net looking for tap ins. And he has had lots of passes not converted some all the gopher forward had to do was get a stick on the puck. He creates outthere.

And yes he does need to improve out there. And so far he has. And wasn't Modano in the same boat when he was drafted. A hot shot American with speed. And all he did was work his butt off and become arguably the best 2 way player of the last 10 or so years.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

If we were talking about Philori Kesselov would you even be posting?

We're not, so what's your point? Oh, that's right, the very tired argument that I'm a U.S. homer. I think the fact that Kessel's the consensus number by all of scouting services one pick for the draft shows I'm not the one out to lunch.

 

[#66]

With just gophers.

Keith Ballard. Will have to be more controlled and will not be able to throw his weight around in the NHL. Being realativly small for his style. Being right around 200 and under 6 feet.

Paul Martin. Will not translate to the NHL. To small. Not strong enough. Needs some bulking up in the AHL and may never be a regular with his size.

Thomas Vanek. Is lazy and will not score in the NHL and his lack of defense will keep in the AHL and will only amout to a draft could be. Is the next Pavel Brendl.

So i have heard it lots about gopher players. Phil is just next in line.

Phil Kessel is not scoring a league like the Q where PM Bouchard can put up 2 points a game. He scores in close. He gets tap ins and such haging around the net looking for tap ins. And he has had lots of passes not converted some all the gopher forward had to do was get a stick on the puck. He creates outthere.

And yes he does need to improve out there. And so far he has. And wasn't Modano in the same boat when he was drafted. A hot shot American with speed. And all he did was work his butt off and become arguably the best 2 way player of the last 10 or so years.

Have you heard the stories about Kessels character? Some make him sound like the second coming but there are just a ton of legit question marks to his game. How anyone can say that he's so clear cut number one is beyond me??? Like I've said before he's not in an AO or Crosby class. With all of those question marks you have to ask youreself if Kessel will hit his upside. On the other hand, with Toews and Frolik playing a more mature game and being better in all zones, they're much more likely to do less adjusting to the pro game and maybe even thrive in it.

 

[orangeandblack]

In mckeens report of the head to head match up, they said kessel clearly outplayed toews.

"Kessel; the most dangerous player all night, flying around the ice both with and without the puck .. likes being in the spotlight and seems to crave opportunities to rise to the occasion .. though his impact was nominal on the scoreboard, just one power-play goal, Kessel was undeniably the best player on the ice offensively .. quarterbacks the power play, exploiting his remarkable vision and booming shot to emerge as a constant threat from just above the faceoff circle .. scored his goal by sneaking in from the point and using Ryan Stoa's screen to fire a laser wristshot top shelf over Jordan Parise's blocker .. a magician with the puck, danced around defenders with a quick stutter-step move .. possesses amazing speed - a flat-out incredible straightaway skater with a dynamic separation gear and unrivaled top speed that allows him to make highlight end-to-end plays .. forces opposing d-men to allow larger-than-usual gaps in order to contend with his speed .. add in the fact that he can also release a powerful shot in full flight only multiples the problem .. performed a tightrope act in the second when he managed to beat three Sioux players while straddling the blueline to keep the play on-side .. showcased his special ability to make plays at full speed all game .. registered six shots on net, though mostly from the perimeter .. also put forth a strong defensive effort on the backcheck, especially when he was playing the point on the power play .. looks to be a shoe-in for the top pick based on this performance."

 

[X-SHARKIE]

There is no way you could watch the two games of Minnesota vs. North Dakota ( I did) and say that Toews was the better player.

I love Toews, but to say he's ahead of Kessel at this point is just somone trying to catch a ride on the band wagon and pretend like your the one driving it with rediculous claims.

Toews at #2 over Frolik? Fine....I won't argue that at the moment.

Just saying McGuire is on crack with that statement.

 

[#66]

There is no way you could watch the two games of Minnesota vs. North Dakota ( I did) and say that Toews was the better player.

I love Toews, but to say he's ahead of Kessel at this point is just somone trying to catch a ride on the band wagon and pretend like your the one driving it with rediculous claims.

Toews at #2 over Frolik? Fine....I won't argue that at the moment.

Just saying McGuire is on crack with that statement.

How clear cut do you think that Kessel is at #1? I wouldn't deny him #1 but to say that the gap is huge is nuts IMO. If Kessel has an OK WJC and Frolik and Toews play awsome I can see big movement in the rankings.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Have you heard the stories about Kessels character? Some make him sound like the second coming but there are just a ton of legit question marks to his game. How anyone can say that he's so clear cut number one is beyond me??? Like I've said before he's not in an AO or Crosby class. With all of those question marks you have to ask youreself if Kessel will hit his upside. On the other hand, with Toews and Frolik playing a more mature game and being better in all zones, they're much more likely to do less adjusting to the pro game and maybe even thrive in it.

1) He seems pretty well liked on the Gophers.
2) Several scouting services say Kessel's the clear cut number one.
3) No one is saying Kessel's in Ovechkin or Crosby's class.
4) Show me documentation that Toews and Frolik play a more mature game.
5) How can you say Toews will adjust better to the pros than Kessel when he hasn't adjusted as well to college?

 

[Gophers]

I'd still take Kessel. Right now he is the front runner for the first pick, not by a huge gap, but the first pick is his. His speed alone is devastating, plus he can put the puck in the net.

 

[X-SHARKIE]

How clear cut do you think that Kessel is at #1? I wouldn't deny him #1 but to say that the gap is huge is nuts IMO. If Kessel has an OK WJC and Frolik and Toews play awsome I can see big movement in the rankings.

The gap is narrowing. Toews would really accelerate the hype even more if he made team Canada and performed well. That's where it will likely come down too, the WJC's.

So no, the gap is not huge, and I agree that would be a bold and off base claim.

I'm not disputing there is an intersting battle for the #1 spot possibly now, but there is also no way one could watch last weekends games and say that Toews is ahead of Kessel at this point.

Even last year, Kessel was dominating the U-20's, while Toews was dominating the U-17's. One can't forget Kessel's accomplishments and simply jump on the Toews wagon and say he's ahead of Kessel IMO.

Lets not forget, Kessel thrives on the big stage. While some players play thier best games in their teams biggest games, he plays his best when the spotlight is on him, wich it will be at the WJC's. I expect him to be a monster at the WJC this year. In the past, he had performed his best hockey of the year at international events and I expect his draft year to be no different.

What if he pulls a Zherdev though and bombs?....while Frolik rebounds from a puzzing U-18's and is one of the Czechs best offensive players and shows that Havlat esq play.. And Toews makes team Canada, and turns into one of their top two centers, and runs the powerplay from the half-wall much like he does in ND and shows his incredible poise and vision, and his underated shooting arsenal?

Then yes, it will get very interesting.


But I fully expect Kessel not to let anyone down at the WJC's. I also expect Toews to leapfrog Frolik as the drafts 2nd best prospect.

Lets not write off Peter Mueller either. 6-4 physical centerman who can create are a hot comidity, he could be a big riser.

I'm also catching the USNTDP this Friday and i'm anxiously awaiting to see Eric Johnson, and Nigel Williams amongst others.

IMO, Kessel and Toews are very similar to Ovechkin and Malkin. Two players from the same league (RSL and now the NCAA). Kessel and Ovechkin are clearly better players now, but what about in the long run. Some will argue that mabey Toews will be better in the long run. Yet others (like me at this point) will say" Will how much better can Kessel be?"


And BTW, i'm not a Kessel jock rider, check out some other posts, but watching the two at this point, i'm not going to jump off the bridge with Pierre McGuire on this one just yet.

But i'll remain flexible

 

[#66]

1) He seems pretty well liked on the Gophers.
2) Several scouting services say Kessel's the clear cut number one.
3) No one is saying Kessel's in Ovechkin or Crosby's class.
4) Show me documentation that Toews and Frolik play a more mature game.
5) How can you say Toews will adjust better to the pros than Kessel when he hasn't adjusted as well to college?

Watch the games, they're better along the boards and don't shy away from traffic. Plus they just play better with out the puck. They battle for the puck and most times win their battles. Toews you can see is still a little raw but the sense and complete game are there. Frolik has skill and a mature game. Kessel is 1D and doesn't display the greatest sense. IMO thats harder to obtain than working on a shot. Look at Rico Fata's numbers in junior.

 

[X-SHARKIE]

1) He seems pretty well liked on the Gophers.
2) Several scouting services say Kessel's the clear cut number one.
3) No one is saying Kessel's in Ovechkin or Crosby's class.
4) Show me documentation that Toews and Frolik play a more mature game.
5) How can you say Toews will adjust better to the pros than Kessel when he hasn't adjusted as well to college?

Rabbid... Kessel back checked hard as any Gopher this past weekend, that shows me that with proper coaching he can develope an all around game. He also identified his man accurately defensively. I'm not saying he's a complete player, and a defensive stalwart yet, but I agree, to say he's strictly a one dimensional offensive threat is wrong.


I also want to make it clear, when I said Kessel and Toews are going to have a similar debate at draft day much like Ovechkin and Malkin did.... That i'm not implying that I believe they are in Ovechkin and Malkin's classes right now, and I'm not saying they play similar styles.... .Just comparing the debate.

 

[#66]

The gap is narrowing. Toews would really accelerate the hype even more if he made team Canada and performed well. That's where it will likely come down too, the WJC's.

So no, the gap is not huge, and I agree that would be a bold and off base claim.

I'm not disputing there is an intersting battle for the #1 spot possibly now, but there is also no way one could watch last weekends games and say that Toews is ahead of Kessel at this point.

Even last year, Kessel was dominating the U-20's, while Toews was dominating the U-17's. One can't forget Kessel's accomplishments and simply jump on the Toews wagon and say he's ahead of Kessel IMO.

Lets not forget, Kessel thrives on the big stage. While some players play thier best games in their teams biggest games, he plays his best when the spotlight is on him, wich it will be at the WJC's. I expect him to be a monster at the WJC this year. In the past, he had performed his best hockey of the year at international events and I expect his draft year to be no different.

What if he pulls a Zherdev though and bombs?....while Frolik rebounds from a puzzing U-18's and is one of the Czechs best offensive players and shows that Havlat esq play.. And Toews makes team Canada, and turns into one of their top two centers, and runs the powerplay from the half-wall much like he does in ND and shows his incredible poise and vision, and his underated shooting arsenal?

Then yes, it will get very interesting.


But I fully expect Kessel not to let anyone down at the WJC's. I also expect Toews to leapfrog Frolik as the drafts 2nd best prospect.

Lets not write off Peter Mueller either. 6-4 physical centerman who can create are a hot comidity, he could be a big riser.

I'm also catching the USNTDP this Friday and i'm anxiously awaiting to see Eric Johnson, and Nigel Williams amongst others.

IMO, Kessel and Toews are very similar to Ovechkin and Malkin. Two players from the same league (RSL and now the NCAA). Kessel and Ovechkin are clearly better players now, but what about in the long run. Some will argue that mabey Toews will be better in the long run. Yet others (like me at this point) will say" Will how much better can Kessel be?"


And BTW, i'm not a Kessel jock rider, check out some other posts, but watching the two at this point, i'm not going to jump off the bridge with Pierre McGuire on this one just yet.

But i'll remain flexible

I agree with all of what you've just posted and thats all I'm say too. I also think that the WJC tends to get a little over rated. IMO its a bunch of individuals that get together and its individual plays that stand out. Also IMO Staal is the rawest but could end up being the best player from this draft.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Watch the games, they're better along the boards and don't shy away from traffic. Plus they just play better with out the puck. They battle for the puck and most times win their battles. Toews you can see is still a little raw but the sense and complete game are there. Frolik has skill and a mature game. Kessel is 1D and doesn't display the greatest sense. IMO thats harder to obtain than working on a shot. Look at Rico Fata's numbers in junior.

You say Toews and Frolik are more mature and compete better, I say Kessel plays a differant style. To compare Kessel's hockey sense to that of Rico Fata's is beyond puzzling to me. Kessel has excellent hockey sense.

 

[#66]

You say Toews are more mature and compete better, I say Kessel plays a differant style. To compare Kessel's hockey sense to that of Rico Fata's is beyond puzzling to me. Kessel has excellent hockey sense.

I admit thats overboard but I don't like how Kessel breaks out of the zone at all. His offensive zone instincts also don't seem superstarish to me all. I'm not questioning if Kessel has skill but if that skill will carry over to the pro game from what I've seen I don't think it will. He doesn't go into traffic like Bure or Lafontaine and also doesn't seem to have the strength of them either. There are parts of his game that seem Afinagenov like and thats what has me doubting him.

 

[Le Golie]

Kessel has excellent hockey sense.

I would have to take issue with that. His sense is definitely not excellent. It's not Rico Fata, but it's not excellent either. If his hockey sense matched his pure skill, he'd be better than Wayne Gretzky.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I admit thats overboard but I don't like how Kessel breaks out of the zone at all. His offensive zone instincts also don't seem superstarish to me all. I'm not questioning if Kessel has skill but if that skill will carry over to the pro game from what I've seen I don't think it will. He doesn't go into traffic like Bure or Lafontaine and also doesn't seem to have the strength of them either. There are parts of his game that seem Afinagenov like and thats what has me doubting him.

There's no doubt that Kessel needs to work on certain aspects of his game. That will come in time. If his game doesn't progress, then your concerns will have be valid. IMO though, I've seen enough progress just in 18 games to see the potential that exists. I think he'll be a great one.

 

[MN_Gopher]

If you like a guy he will resemble a star out there. Bure for Kessel. If you do not like the guy he resembles a poor player or one that never turned out. Afinagaonov. To say Bure scores in traffic and Kessel does not is false. Jagr is a guy who scores in traffic. Bure did, but i bet he liked space and to use his speed more. Kessel can score in in traffic and he definitly can pass in traffic. But he likes space and to use his speed.

There are lots of simularites between Victor Kozlov and Toews.

His sense to me is very good. Maybe not super great but well above average.