Speculation: Matt Duchene Thread Part... Just get a trade done already

[cgf]

That’s why I think the Jets should do this. Varlamov, when healthy, is a significant upgrade in net for them. Likely the best they’d have as Jets 2.0... And the addition of Duchene bumps Little down to strengthen the top 9, and Duchene adds speed and skill to their top 6. They have 3 top line wingers in Laine, Ehlers and Wheeler - this would give them 2/3 of another 1st line IMO.

Trouba is a good player but he doesn’t want to be there. The Jets have a pretty deep blue line so while it is a loss there, IMO the pros far outweigh the cons in this case.

If Sakic could pull that off before flipping Trouba for Marner + a pick the team could really be cooking with gas if they got their #1 LHD with their 1st next spring.

 

[sparxx87]

If Sakic could pull that off before flipping Trouba for Marner + a pick the team could really be cooking with gas if they got their #1 LHD with their 1st next spring.

But why would the Leafs trade 20 y/o Marner with elite potential, on an ELC for another year after this, and who grew up in Toronto as a Leafs fan..... for a player who doesn’t want to play in Canada, won’t be happy, and won’t resign?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I'm glad to see you understand what the best case scenario is. But based on your previous post talking about the offers being more or less the same you obviously have no clue what the other scenarios are. You also don't seem to undertand that different scenarios have different odds of happening. But hey, I'm sure the best case will happen. Best case scenarios pretty much always happen.

To steal a line, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. If you're happy with settling for whatever the Avs can get right now, that's great. I'd rather keep trying to get what we really need until all of our chances are exhausted. It doesn't matter if it's unlikely to actually work out, it's still worth exploring. There will be a time when settling is appropriate, but we're not there yet. The defeatist attitude among many of the Avs fans/critics around here, that absolutely nothing is going to work and we might as well accept it now, isn't productive and feels more like a search for an escape, rather than a quest for a solution.

Being able to negotiate a contract and being able to sign an extension does do **** for his value.

He actually has to sign it. By the way you argue you think it's a forgone conclusion he will.

I didn't say it did anything for his value. I said that being able to negotiate a contract immediately might convince a GM to make a move then that he's not comfortable making today. It could be the exact same deal, but I think the contract angle is something to consider. There are inherent risks to acquiring a player with 2 years left. Really, a lot of the same risks that the Avs are taking by holding on to him. He could get hurt, he could suck again, he might leave as a UFA... those risks don't go away. Mitigating 2 of those risks, by waiting until he's proven that last year was an anomaly, and by immediately having the chance to extend him, might be a difference maker. They are seemingly innocuous things, but it's usually little things that hold up big deals like this.

I have also tried very hard to not say that anything is a forgone conclusion. I don't think it's time to discount any potential outcome, until it's clear that it's not going to happen. There's still a long way to go before we get to the appropriate time to settle, and there are a lot of moving parts. And who knows what winning some games and having fun playing hockey again might do.

Some people believe the earth is flat. Some people believe evolution is a hoax. Some people believe George Bush was the evil mastermind behind 9/11. It's "easy" to "believe" whatever you like.

Believing there are explanations is one thing. Actually explaining those explanations without sounding like the crazy guy who thinks he was abducted by aliens is another.

People all used to believe the world was flat. Until someone discovered the truth.
People all used to believe that God created everything. Until someone discovered the truth.
And, yes, people tend to defend their beliefs strongly, and think that anything that doesn't conform to their narrow world view must be wrong. But, it's OK, I don't mind being the only sane person in the asylum. At least the crazy people like hockey.

 

[cgf]

But why would the Leafs trade 20 y/o Marner with elite potential, on an ELC for another year after this, and who grew up in Toronto as a Leafs fan..... for a player who doesn’t want to play in Canada, won’t be happy, and won’t resign?

I somehow doubt Trouba would mind re-signing in Toronto if the leafs paid up for him. He's going to re-set the market for these young top pairing dmen / franchise guys in the making, but I don't think he'll have as many issues with Toronto as he does Winnipeg.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

No certainty how long his groin holds up as well. Maybe the surgery(s) fix him completely, but I'm going to be worried about him for at least this year.

Hey, we actually agree on something.

I'm glad we got Bernier, and hope he's good for 30-35 games this year. I don't really want to see Varly play more than maybe 55 games this year.

 

[sparxx87]

I somehow doubt Trouba would mind re-signing in Toronto if the leafs paid up for him. He's going to re-set the market for these young top pairing dmen / franchise guys in the making, but I don't think he'll have as many issues with Toronto as he does Winnipeg.

What if he just doesn’t want to play in Canada? Something reported by multiple reliable sources... If you’re the Leafs do you wager Marner on that? And the Leafs won’t be able to give Trouba a market setting deal with Matthews and Nylander due for massive raises.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

To steal a line, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. If you're happy with settling for whatever the Avs can get right now, that's great. I'd rather keep trying to get what we really need until all of our chances are exhausted. It doesn't matter if it's unlikely to actually work out, it's still worth exploring. There will be a time when settling is appropriate, but we're not there yet. The defeatist attitude among many of the Avs fans/critics around here, that absolutely nothing is going to work and we might as well accept it now, isn't productive and feels more like a search for an escape, rather than a quest for a solution.



I didn't say it did anything for his value. I said that being able to negotiate a contract immediately might convince a GM to make a move then that he's not comfortable making today. It could be the exact same deal, but I think the contract angle is something to consider. There are inherent risks to acquiring a player with 2 years left. Really, a lot of the same risks that the Avs are taking by holding on to him. He could get hurt, he could suck again, he might leave as a UFA... those risks don't go away. Mitigating 2 of those risks, by waiting until he's proven that last year was an anomaly, and by immediately having the chance to extend him, might be a difference maker. They are seemingly innocuous things, but it's usually little things that hold up big deals like this.

I have also tried very hard to not say that anything is a forgone conclusion. I don't think it's time to discount any potential outcome, until it's clear that it's not going to happen. There's still a long way to go before we get to the appropriate time to settle, and there are a lot of moving parts. And who knows what winning some games and having fun playing hockey again might do.



People all used to believe the world was flat. Until someone discovered the truth.
People all used to believe that God created everything. Until someone discovered the truth.
And, yes, people tend to defend their beliefs strongly, and think that anything that doesn't conform to their narrow world view must be wrong. But, it's OK, I don't mind being the only sane person in the asylum. At least the crazy people like hockey.

It doesn't matter if waiting longer is actually unlikely to work? Wow, you will defend anything our fool of a GM does. Yeah, who cares if all we end up with is a couple 2nd round picks because Sakic just keeps waiting and waiting. That doesn't matter. Only thing that matters is that Sakic gets want we need regardless of how likely we are to get it. Hell, maybe Sakic waits so long Duchene just walks. Who cares if that happens though, right? Sakic didn't get what we needed so no point even making the trade. The time to settle is clearly now while we are assured a fair trade for a talent like Duchene, instead of chasing some unlikely outcome with the likely outcome being much worse from now. Now is not the time for Sakic to show everyone how stubborn he is.

"Until someone discovered the truth." And what was that truth based on? Facts. What do the facts point to in this situation? Duchene wanting out. Like I said, you can't spin his comments any other way without looking like a crazy person. You have proven you can't already.You are not the sane person. You are the crazy person who is literally creating conspiracies to try and prove your narrow view is possibly right. Conspiracies like Duchene, Lando, Brisson and Sakic giving "non-answers" when asked about holding out because the org likes to keep the media in the dark. Despite this obviously being a terrible approach to calming the rumors you think are fake.

The ability to come up with ridiculous theories for something is not being open minded. That's just a pathetic desperation to cling to your narrow minded view. Sane, open minded people can see the obvious despite what they want to believe.

And btw term is part of value. If a team doesn't want a player because of term but is willing to trade for them if extended then their value was obviously less, a lot less. The team didn't want him. And, as usual, here you are just playing word games again. Gotta take the focus off the point I made (being able to talk extension doesn't mean a thing, only actually signing an extension helps) and argue this stupid semantics craps.

 

[Dr Quincy]

Ironic post considering you're the one that's uninformed. Duchene can negotiate an extension as soon as he has one year left on his contract. This would eliminate the risk of him walking.

I think you are confusing "Can negotiate" with "Will negotiate and come to a deal". Just because a team CAN negotiate a deal doesn't eliminate the risk of him walking.

 

[Dr Quincy]

I don't think anyone is expecting him to sign an extension with the Avs before any potential trade, because a real sign and trade almost never happens.

I also don't see Duchene doing anything to hurt his own value in a trade. If he does something like you're suggesting, maybe he doesn't get traded next off season, and maybe the Avs just keep him until the 2019 TDL. If he truly wants to get moved, it's in his own best interests to help facilitate the process.

But didn't you say that there's no evidence he wants to move? So why would he care about his trade value when you are convinced he's not unhappy in Colorado?

 

[sparxx87]

The Avs just need to move on from this. Duchene, IMO, only wants out because of the circus that these trade rumours have become... The team sucked and someone got the idea that trading a kid like this could further their rebuild. The media made it a big story as they were epically bad, as if trading him was the magic solution.

The whole situation is ridiculous and I feel so bad for Matt Duchene. His dream of playing for his favourite team has turned into a nightmare. Both sides really need to move on.

 

[CB Joe]

I think you are confusing "Can negotiate" with "Will negotiate and come to a deal". Just because a team CAN negotiate a deal doesn't eliminate the risk of him walking.

Yes it does. The new team would negotiate the extension with him prior to the trade. This eliminates the risk.

 

[Legend123]

IMO if no one wants to pay up for Duchene he better stay there until next year's deadline. Dont get rid of him just to get rid of him. Hes an asset.

I would just ignore Forsberg's comments.

 

[webersshot]

IMO if no one wants to pay up for Duchene he better stay there until next year's deadline. Dont get rid of him just to get rid of him. Hes an asset.

I would just ignore Forsberg's comments.

But he'd have to fetch more now than at next years deadline no? I dunno do you guys think theres a chance he might re-sign with colorado or is that pretty much not happening at all? That'd have to be the best option id think

 

[Legend123]

But he'd have to fetch more now than at next years deadline no? I dunno do you guys think theres a chance he might re-sign with colorado or is that pretty much not happening at all? That'd have to be the best option id think

if COL can win and make the playoffs then yeah i think so.

 

[triggrman]

What is the record for the longest running trade thread for an individual ? This has to be close.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

It doesn't matter if waiting longer is actually unlikely to work? Wow, you will defend anything our fool of a GM does. Yeah, who cares if all we end up with is a couple 2nd round picks because Sakic just keeps waiting and waiting. That doesn't matter. Only thing that matters is that Sakic gets want we need regardless of how likely we are to get it. Hell, maybe Sakic waits so long Duchene just walks. Who cares if that happens though, right? Sakic didn't get what we needed so no point even making the trade. The time to settle is clearly now while we are assured a fair trade for a talent like Duchene, instead of chasing some unlikely outcome with the likely outcome being much worse from now. Now is not the time for Sakic to show everyone how stubborn he is.

"Until someone discovered the truth." And what was that truth based on? Facts. What do the facts point to in this situation? Duchene wanting out. Like I said, you can't spin his comments any other way without looking like a crazy person. You have proven you can't already.You are not the sane person. You are the crazy person who is literally creating conspiracies to try and prove your narrow view is possibly right. Conspiracies like Duchene, Lando, Brisson and Sakic giving "non-answers" when asked about holding out because the org likes to keep the media in the dark. Despite this obviously being a terrible approach to calming the rumors you think are fake.

The ability to come up with ridiculous theories for something is not being open minded. That's just a pathetic desperation to cling to your narrow minded view. Sane, open minded people can see the obvious despite what they want to believe.

And btw term is part of value. If a team doesn't want a player because of term but is willing to trade for them if extended then their value was obviously less, a lot less. The team didn't want him. And, as usual, here you are just playing word games again. Gotta take the focus off the point I made (being able to talk extension doesn't mean a thing, only actually signing an extension helps) and argue this stupid semantics craps.

Literally the next sentence after "it doesn't matter if it's unlikely to work" said "there will be a time to settle". Literally the next sentence. Like, it's right there. Do you enjoy picking specific sentences, taking them completely out of context, and then arguing with yourself over something I didn't say? It seems like a trend, whenever we have these little exchanges. But, anyway, are we really assured of a fair trade right now? I haven't seen many trade offers around here that I'd consider to be fair. I see a lot that would be good enough, if we absolutely had to move Duchene. But, right now, we don't absolutely have to do that, regardless of what anyone thinks. It might help ease some tension, or at least get the media to shut the f*** up, but he's still under contract through next season, he's playing decently well so far, and the biggest possible risks aren't really that likely, no matter how much you seem to want to fear monger.

And, yes, discovery is based on facts. But, just because you strongly believe that Duchene using the word divorced in some forbidden manner, or missing the captain's skate or whatever means something specific, doesn't make it a fact. Proof makes it a fact. You don't have proof, you have conjecture and speculation. I don't disagree that the conjecture and speculation is convincing, and it very well could be proven true, eventually, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it as fact before we get something resembling proof. And, no, your interpretation of events doesn't constitute proof, despite your assurances that it's "obvious". Unfortunately, every time I've asked you to defend your theory, I get responses like this.

Technically, the willingness to consider new ideas is pretty much the definition of open mindedness. I'm willing to consider pretty much any explanation for why Duchene said something, or looked unhappy, or missed an event, because we don't have proof yet. You seem to only be willing to consider explanations that fit your view, and have a tendency to personally attack people who don't agree with you. Doesn't really fit into the definition of open minded, does it?

As for your last paragraph, you obviously just don't get it. But, sure, blame me for playing word games, because you can't comprehend what I'm talking about. I'm honestly really not surprised, all things considered.

 

[Addison Rae]

What is the record for the longest running trade thread for an individual ? This has to be close.

Luongo...

 

[triggrman]

Luongo...

Oh, good call

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

if COL can win and make the playoffs then yeah i think so.

He also recently made some comments about having fun playing with the young guys. Yes, he used the word "fun". I wonder what cryptic message he was trying to send by using that word in that way.

 

[Legend123]

He also recently made some comments about having fun playing with the young guys. Yes, he used the word "fun". I wonder what cryptic message he was trying to send by using that word in that way.

he grew up as a die hard Avs fan. I mean hes only pissed at management/coach for the time being. Those feelings can go away when they are replaced with feelings of winning. Also, if Sakic gets fired, would he still want out? Or does he just want a new start?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

But didn't you say that there's no evidence he wants to move? So why would he care about his trade value when you are convinced he's not unhappy in Colorado?

No, there's definitely evidence, but there's no real proof. I don't think any of us know what Duchene really wants. Does he really want to get traded? I don't honestly know. After seeing him at the 2009 draft, and watching him for his entire professional career, I still believe that Duchene's dream was always to play his entire career in Denver and retire an Avalanche player. But, I also believe he wants to win, more than he wants to retire in Colorado. After last season, he would have to be a fool to not question whether he can win in Colorado, and start looking at possible changes. But that doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't still prefer to win in Colorado, if that's a realistic option. Seriously, who wouldn't want to live out their childhood fantasies and have a chance to win a Cup for their favorite team?

Does this team have a realistic chance to win? Maybe? They need to work on some things, but that's expected from the 2nd youngest team in the league. It'll definitely be interesting to see how the next 79 games change the situation.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

he grew up as a die hard Avs fan. I mean hes only pissed at management/coach for the time being. Those feelings can go away when they are replaced with feelings of winning. Also, if Sakic gets fired, would he still want out? Or does he just want a new start?

Winning does change things.

Also, if Sakic gets fired as GM, he'll probably still be EVP of Hockey Operations. I really don't see the Kroenkes replacing him in that role anytime soon. It's possible, but I think he's got at least 3-4 more years before they start to care.

 

[Legend123]

Winning does change things.

Also, if Sakic gets fired as GM, he'll probably still be EVP of Hockey Operations. I really don't see the Kroenkes replacing him in that role anytime soon. It's possible, but I think he's got at least 3-4 more years before they start to care.

i dont think duchene hates Sakic, I actually think he still likes him as one of his idols growing up. I mean he doesnt like the fact his GM wants to trade him, i mean, who would? If the replacing GM clearly wants Duchene, would he still want out? I kinda doubt that...

 

[Liver King]

Yes, Duchene does really want to be traded. That's fairly obvious.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Literally the next sentence after "it doesn't matter if it's unlikely to work" said "there will be a time to settle". Literally the next sentence. Like, it's right there. Do you enjoy picking specific sentences, taking them completely out of context, and then arguing with yourself over something I didn't say? It seems like a trend, whenever we have these little exchanges. But, anyway, are we really assured of a fair trade right now? I haven't seen many trade offers around here that I'd consider to be fair. I see a lot that would be good enough, if we absolutely had to move Duchene. But, right now, we don't absolutely have to do that, regardless of what anyone thinks. It might help ease some tension, or at least get the media to shut the **** up, but he's still under contract through next season, he's playing decently well so far, and the biggest possible risks aren't really that likely, no matter how much you seem to want to fear monger.

And, yes, discovery is based on facts. But, just because you strongly believe that Duchene using the word divorced in some forbidden manner, or missing the captain's skate or whatever means something specific, doesn't make it a fact. Proof makes it a fact. You don't have proof, you have conjecture and speculation. I don't disagree that the conjecture and speculation is convincing, and it very well could be proven true, eventually, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it as fact before we get something resembling proof. And, no, your interpretation of events doesn't constitute proof, despite your assurances that it's "obvious". Unfortunately, every time I've asked you to defend your theory, I get responses like this.

Technically, the willingness to consider new ideas is pretty much the definition of open mindedness. I'm willing to consider pretty much any explanation for why Duchene said something, or looked unhappy, or missed an event, because we don't have proof yet. You seem to only be willing to consider explanations that fit your view, and have a tendency to personally attack people who don't agree with you. Doesn't really fit into the definition of open minded, does it?

As for your last paragraph, you obviously just don't get it. But, sure, blame me for playing word games, because you can't comprehend what I'm talking about. I'm honestly really not surprised, all things considered.

Look, what a shock, a bunch of spin.

Really? That's the next sentence? No shit. Guess what? That sentence literally has nothing to do with how likely something is to work. Good for you for thinking "there will be a time to settle". But that changes nothing about what I said in response to you straight up saying that first sentence. Instead of arguing about the likelyhood or the consequences of waiting you need to pull this childish crap about what was said.

Fair equals good enough. There is no good enough if we have to move him. Once we actually have to move him the offers will be worse than now. The only hope we have of getting a better offer down the road is if Duchene signs an extension. He will sign that before we have to move him. So if it comes to the point that we have to move him then things went bad and we ain't getting anything close to now.

Of course we don't have to trade him right now. Nobody is saying we do. The point is if we don't trade him right now the offers could be very bad. Just more spin though. Can't argue the point so you make it seem like I said he had to be traded instead.

The biggest possible risks arn't really likely? You are so full of shit. You just straight up said "it doesn't matter if it's unlikely to work". If waiting is unlikely to work then that's because the risks are likely. You are just saying whatever pops in your head to defend Sakic, even if it contradicts your own previous comments meant to defend the idiot we call GM of the Avs.

Wow, can't believe this needs to be explained. The facts are the comments and actions themselves, not the meanings. Proof doesn't make something a fact. That's just plain stupid. There you go again, instead of arguing against the point made you have to act like something else was said.

Yes I have conjecture. Conjecture based on those facts. I never said it was proof. In fact many many times I've told you it's not proof. But that's your pathetic argument tactic. Just spin a bunch of bullshit about how I think my opinions are facts and proof.

It is "obvious" without proof.

I've defended my theory many times. But you just keep spinning a bunch if bull shit. How about you explain how all these facts could mean something different that what I assume without sounding like a crazy conspiracy theorist. Wait, you can't, because the answer is obvious. So instead you just want to play these stupid spin games. This one acting as if I've never explained my opinion.m

Yes the willingness to consider other ideas is being open minded. You are not considering other ideas. You are ignoring ideas in favor of what you want to believe and creating stupid conspiracy theories that's just batshit crazy in order to explain what you want to be the truth.

I'm willing to accept explanations that are logical. I use these explinations to form a view. You should try that instead of coming up with crazy theories to fit what you just simply what to believe. The explinations should form your view. Your view should not form the explinations.

I have have a tendancy to attack those are are condescending, especially when their view is so damn stupid. Don't confuse that with disagreeing. All offseason you have attacked anybody and everybody who says Duchene wants out acting as if they are stupid for forming a conclusion because we don't have proof. Over and over and over, all day everyday, here you were attacking anyone who said anything remotely negative.

I fully comprhend what you said. You are the one who doesn't get it. You keep saying Duchene being able to talk extension would maybe get a GM to sign him. And my point is that your just spewing a bunch of stupid shit with that idea. I comprehend what you are saying. What you are suggesting is just plain dumb. Nobody is going to sign him because he can talk extension. They will change their mind about signing him when those talks turn to action and he actually signs an extension. Talking about it changes nothing. But hey, you don't want to argue that huh, just more spin about me not understanding instead.

Like I said. Just a bunch of spin BS. You can't actually argue against any points or views though, so I guess this is all you got.