Dreger: Matt Duchene Mega-thread:Habs, NSH, NYI inquired - Part II

[Habs Halifax]

Nice how you say those who disagree with you know nothing and those who agree with you are knowledgable.
Nice ego there.
For the record, moving Sergachev for Duchene makes sense to anyone with hockey IQ. Duchene fits the window demographic and gives us a much better chance at re-signing Price when he's due be use it shows the team is trying to win, not just going around in endless circles of retooling and rebuilding.
As for Bergevin staying, that will depend on whether or not this team can contend. He won't be around for years if the team doesn't make the playoffs and look like true Cup contenders.
The only "fans" who think he should be around regardless are sad his Foxhole buddy was finally kicked to the curb where he belongs.

Well our GM agrees with me more than your logic. I guess your another MB hater cause you saying he has no hockey IQ. I can debate all day long and if you provide actual good points, I'll be the first to acknowledge that you did make a good point. However, your too focused on personal attacks. Grow up.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

No it is really not.

Especially if you consider that the Avs realistically don't have a real need for Hamonic, Barzal or Pulock.

Hamonic and Pulock are not better than EJ or Barrie respectively in their roles. EJ > Hamonic defensively IMO and Barrie >> Pulock offensively.

Barzals absolute ceiling is probably close to what Duchene is right now.

So why would the Avs do this?


The only way Sakic shouldn't demand a young, top tier D prospect or young NHL player (preferably LHD or atleast potentially a serious upgrade on EJ or Barrie) is if someone really overpays.

From the Isles it should take atleast Hamonic+ Barzal + 1st.

Everything else makes trading Duchene to the Isles not worth it for the Avs..

Just IMO, but Hamonic would easily be the 2nd best d-man on the Av's, and would be a huge upgrade for the team. I don't see how the fact that him not being better than EJ impacts that overall trade at all. And Hamonic is a WORLDS better d-man than Barrie IMO.

I consider EJ a legit #1 dman, and there are probably 20-25 guys who I'd consider upgrades. On what planet is Duchene worth a guy who be a significant upgrade on EJ?

I see a trade like this would have the opportunity to fill 2 or 3 holes on the roster, and only open up 1. If they could get Hamonic + 1st + good prospect, they help solidify the blueline, and add 2 other potential asset that can fill the many holes on the Avs roster.

Please note I'm not saying trade MD for 3 stiffs. I consider Hamonic a legit top pairing dman, and the 1st & prospect could both help fill the many other holes on the Av's roster. Just my $.02.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Lmao... ok.
Habs have RW depth.....
I'm done.
You have yourself a good day.

Educate us on how this is not depth on RW? Radulov, Gallagher, Shaw, McCarron, Scherbak. I know the reason why your done... it's because you know your talking nonsense and are now back peddling

 

[JoemAvs]

Just IMO, but Hamonic would easily be the 2nd best d-man on the Av's, and would be a huge upgrade for the team. I don't see how the fact that him not being better than EJ impacts that overall trade at all. And Hamonic is a WORLDS better d-man than Barrie IMO.

I consider EJ a legit #1 dman, and there are probably 20-25 guys who I'd consider upgrades. On what planet is Duchene worth a guy who be a significant upgrade on EJ?

I see a trade like this would have the opportunity to fill 2 or 3 holes on the roster, and only open up 1. If they could get Hamonic + 1st + good prospect, they help solidify the blueline, and add 2 other potential asset that can fill the many holes on the Avs roster.

Please note I'm not saying trade MD for 3 stiffs. I consider Hamonic a legit top pairing dman, and the 1st & prospect could both help fill the many other holes on the Av's roster. Just my $.02.

Barrie is underrated. Hamonic really is not worlds better overall. And I wouldn't call Hamonic a legit top pairing D either. He sure can play it but he is not one of the top end #2 Ds in this league.

I think Barrie and EJ on the right side would be a very good combination if the LHDs and bottom pairing wouldn't consist of guys that should be on the second pairing in the AHL right now (like it did for the Avs for the last few years).

EJ - Hamonic - Zadorov IMO does not have enough offense and puckmoving ability to form a great D core. Zads has potential in that department but he is not there yet and just go injured unfortunately.

To me Hamonic is simply a worse version of EJ. That is nice to have but you really shouldn't give up Duchene for him if you already have EJ. Especially when you have a guy like Meloche also being in the AHL next year who also is a defensive oriented RHD.

Add that both Barrie and EJ combine for 11.5 M in salary and there is no way that this deal wouldn't lead to some sort of follow up deal. Which kind of defeats the point of moving Duchene in the first place.

I don't want to lose Barrie and Duchene just to accomodate a deal involving Hamonic that I don't even like.

Honestly the 1st and prospect does not even matter to me all that much. It has to be there in this deal because of a lack of overall value otherwise but it really shouldn't be the main selling point in any deal. Especially if it is a 2017 1st.

Avs have a chance to set up their D for the foreseeable future if they get those Duchene/Landy situations right.

If Sakic can get one of Hanifin / Chabot / Chychrun or even Sergachev (although I think he is pretty risky) or McAvoy (RHD but he has the potential to replace one of Barrie/ EJ and make it worth it for the Avs), the Avs could set themselves up very nicely for the future.

One of those guys + Zadorov + Bigras on the left side + EJ + Barrie + Meloche on the right side would be a very decent group going forward.

If you bring in Hamonic and trade Barrie or EJ, you will still have a gaping hole on the left side next to the guy that does not get to play with Zadorov and no real way to adress it.

And I would really like to fill that


To me Hamonic does not make any sense. Avs would get older and not really fill a need while losing their best trading chip by far.

 

[Ice Crusher]

I really feel Sakic's job is on the line if he trades Duchene for what offers are currently on the table. Unless some GM comes in late at trade deadline and offers something Sakic can't refuse, Duchene stays an Aves IMO.

All GM's that are interested in Duchene (we all know there are many) have an end game in mind and so does Sakic. Offers will come in at the last moment before the trade deadline and it's up to Sakic to see if it's worth it or can he get more in the off season.

If all GM's are interested, do you really think an offer of Juulsen + Gallagher + 2nd will be appealling for Sakic?

 

[AvsWraith]

I really feel Sakic's job is on the line if he trades Duchene for what offers are currently on the table. Unless some GM comes in late at trade deadline and offers something Sakic can't refuse, Duchene stays an Aves IMO.

All GM's that are interested in Duchene (we all know there are many) have an end game in mind and so does Sakic. Offers will come in at the last moment before the trade deadline and it's up to Sakic to see if it's worth it or can he get more in the off season.

Then you know nothing about the Avs ownership. They don't give a **** about hockey or the Avs. Our owner, the real one, not his puppet son, hasn't been to a game since game 7 of the cup finals in 2001. I would be surprised if he even still remembers he owns the team. The media in denver also doesn't care, hardly covers them at all. Sakic has absolutely no pressure on him at all to do anything. He can sit back and lose Duchene to UFA and nothing will happen to him, which is unfortunate to the fans who do care.

 

[FourRings]

Barrie is underrated. Hamonic really is not worlds better overall. And I wouldn't call Hamonic a legit top pairing D either. He sure can play it but he is not one of the top end #2 Ds in this league.

I think Barrie and EJ on the right side would be a very good combination if the LHDs and bottom pairing wouldn't consist of guys that should be on the second pairing in the AHL right now (like it did for the Avs for the last few years).

EJ - Hamonic - Zadorov IMO does not have enough offense and puckmoving ability to form a great D core. Zads has potential in that department but he is not there yet and just go injured unfortunately.

To me Hamonic is simply a worse version of EJ. That is nice to have but you really shouldn't give up Duchene for him if you already have EJ. Especially when you have a guy like Meloche also being in the AHL next year who also is a defensive oriented RHD.

Add that both Barrie and EJ combine for 11.5 M in salary and there is no way that this deal wouldn't lead to some sort of follow up deal. Which kind of defeats the point of moving Duchene in the first place.

I don't want to lose Barrie and Duchene just to accomodate a deal involving Hamonic that I don't even like.

Honestly the 1st and prospect does not even matter to me all that much. It has to be there in this deal because of a lack of overall value otherwise but it really shouldn't be the main selling point in any deal. Especially if it is a 2017 1st.

Avs have a chance to set up their D for the foreseeable future if they get those Duchene/Landy situations right.

If Sakic can get one of Hanifin / Chabot / Chychrun or even Sergachev (although I think he is pretty risky) or McAvoy (RHD but he has the potential to replace one of Barrie/ EJ and make it worth it for the Avs), the Avs could set themselves up very nicely for the future.

One of those guys + Zadorov + Bigras on the left side + EJ + Barrie + Meloche on the right side would be a very decent group going forward.

If you bring in Hamonic and trade Barrie or EJ, you will still have a gaping hole on the left side next to the guy that does not get to play with Zadorov and no real way to adress it.

And I would really like to fill that


To me Hamonic does not make any sense. Avs would get older and not really fill a need while losing their best trading chip by far.

Why won't you consider Hamonic a legit top pairing D? He would be a solid #2 on many teams across the league. The Isles D doesn't get enough credit, but they have been playing very solidly this season and seemlingly didn't miss much of a beat when Hamonic went down about a month ago; you know, when the Isles went from last in the conference into playoff position. He is without a doubt a top pairing guy and is DEFINITELY better than Barrie in terms of defensive ability and it's not really that close.

If you don't want Hamonic for Duchene that's fine, but don't make crap up.

 

[Aspirine]

We disagree. And I previously answered this. Habs have depth at RW and in any trade, you have to give to get. Question is, does the Aves want the 24 year old Gallagher on RW in that packaged deal. I love Gallagher and would hate to see him go but he's the guy that fits and is near MacKinnon's age. Depth on RW the Habs have is Radulov, Gallagher, Shaw, McCarron, Scherbak. I would say that's where they have the most depth besides goal tending.

I suspect you think it's a lousy offer because your fooled thinking Sakic is actually getting the ridiculous high price. Congrats... your falling for his negotiation strategy

Radulov is not signed next year, Shaw is trash, Macaron and Scherbak are underachieving prospects. This is what you call depth. Careful, your knowledge is showing here

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Why won't you consider Hamonic a legit top pairing D? He would be a solid #2 on many teams across the league. The Isles D doesn't get enough credit, but they have been playing very solidly this season and seemlingly didn't miss much of a beat when Hamonic went down about a month ago; you know, when the Isles went from last in the conference into playoff position. He is without a doubt a top pairing guy and is DEFINITELY better than Barrie in terms of defensive ability and it's not really that close.

If you don't want Hamonic for Duchene that's fine, but don't make crap up.

that doesn't tell you anything?

 

[Kevin27NYI]

that doesn't tell you anything?

Tells me the Isles have a great defense and a deep in depth

 

[SI90]

Tells me the Isles have a great defense and a deep in depth

Pelech and Mayfield have really stepped up. Seidenberg also was a huge signing

 

[Steeler23]

Radulov is not signed next year, Shaw is trash, Macaron and Scherbak are underachieving prospects. This is what you call depth. Careful, your knowledge is showing here

I agree with what you're trying to say (our RW depth is not that good), but saying Scherbak is underachieving isn't true. He's 21 and have 30 pts in 45 games in the AHL, he still have potential.

Same for McCarron, 22 yrs old and never giving a chance with good players. Not saying he deserve it right now, but nobody expected him to be a #1/2C at 22.

Can you find 3-4 late first who were top players in the league at 21-22?

 

[The Abusement Park]

Tells me the Isles have a great defense and a deep in depth

That tells me he isn't that importantr. Missing a player that "important" to a team or player that's that good shouldn't have 0 impact on a team. Not the kinda player I'd wanna trade Duchene for.

 

[FourRings]

that doesn't tell you anything?

It debunks the idea that Hamonic is only the Isles #2 because they have poor defensive depth.

 

[seabass45]

Barrie is underrated. Hamonic really is not worlds better overall. And I wouldn't call Hamonic a legit top pairing D either. He sure can play it but he is not one of the top end #2 Ds in this league.

I think Barrie and EJ on the right side would be a very good combination if the LHDs and bottom pairing wouldn't consist of guys that should be on the second pairing in the AHL right now (like it did for the Avs for the last few years).

EJ - Hamonic - Zadorov IMO does not have enough offense and puckmoving ability to form a great D core. Zads has potential in that department but he is not there yet and just go injured unfortunately.

To me Hamonic is simply a worse version of EJ. That is nice to have but you really shouldn't give up Duchene for him if you already have EJ. Especially when you have a guy like Meloche also being in the AHL next year who also is a defensive oriented RHD.

Add that both Barrie and EJ combine for 11.5 M in salary and there is no way that this deal wouldn't lead to some sort of follow up deal. Which kind of defeats the point of moving Duchene in the first place.

I don't want to lose Barrie and Duchene just to accomodate a deal involving Hamonic that I don't even like.

Honestly the 1st and prospect does not even matter to me all that much. It has to be there in this deal because of a lack of overall value otherwise but it really shouldn't be the main selling point in any deal. Especially if it is a 2017 1st.

Avs have a chance to set up their D for the foreseeable future if they get those Duchene/Landy situations right.

If Sakic can get one of Hanifin / Chabot / Chychrun or even Sergachev (although I think he is pretty risky) or McAvoy (RHD but he has the potential to replace one of Barrie/ EJ and make it worth it for the Avs), the Avs could set themselves up very nicely for the future.

One of those guys + Zadorov + Bigras on the left side + EJ + Barrie + Meloche on the right side would be a very decent group going forward.

If you bring in Hamonic and trade Barrie or EJ, you will still have a gaping hole on the left side next to the guy that does not get to play with Zadorov and no real way to adress it.

And I would really like to fill that


To me Hamonic does not make any sense. Avs would get older and not really fill a need while losing their best trading chip by far.

Not top end, but I feel like Hamonic would end up on a lot of people's top 50 d-man lists. Definitely near the end but he'd be there. He's basically a tweener between #2 and #3.

The problem is that I'm still not sure what value that holds if he was offered in a trade. I'd like to think he'd make a good centerpiece in a Duchene trade but who knows.

 

[FourRings]

That tells me he isn't that importantr. Missing a player that "important" to a team or player that's that good shouldn't have 0 impact on a team. Not the kinda player I'd wanna trade Duchene for.

Or that the Isles have good depth and can afford to move a player like Hamonic. I think the defense would be even better with Hamonic in the lineup simply because the Isles have become more run and gun under Weight and they could use another reliable defender in Hamonic who has shut down many the elite player in the Metro Division (see: 2013 Playoffs vs. Penguins).

 

[Kevin27NYI]

Pelech and Mayfield have really stepped up. Seidenberg also was a huge signing

It's why I want to deal from a strength here. Pulock is a killer right now too in the A. We can do something here.

That tells me he isn't that importantr. Missing a player that "important" to a team or player that's that good shouldn't have 0 impact on a team. Not the kinda player I'd wanna trade Duchene for.

Oh we have definitely missed him, his size and emotional, physical presence is missed. It's both true that the D hasn't missed a beat since he's been gone in the sense it's still a strength of the team and they have been rolling but it's also not true that him being gone has had zero impact. Guys have stepped up in his absence but when he comes back we are definitely a better team.

In the past for example, if Crosby got hurt, the Penguins offense/team didn't fold without him, they had a killer behind him and didn't miss a beat.

 

[Aspirine]

I agree with what you're trying to say (our RW depth is not that good), but saying Scherbak is underachieving isn't true. He's 21 and have 30 pts in 45 games in the AHL, he still have potential.

Same for McCarron, 22 yrs old and never giving a chance with good players. Not saying he deserve it right now, but nobody expected him to be a #1/2C at 22.

Can you find 3-4 late first who were top players in the league at 21-22?

Truth is they're a dime-a-dozen young players every team has. Not saying I don't like them, but they hardly qualify as quality depth.
They don't have to be top players, they ain't even nhl players.

 

[webersshot]

Duchene won't be traded, GM's aren't giving up their top prospects. Cap space is the most valuable commodity. /thread

 

[strictlyrandy]

Duchene won't be traded, GM's aren't giving up their top prospects. Cap space is the most valuable commodity. /thread

Word out of Colorado from those in the know is that Duchene is gone. It's either at the deadline or off season but the rumors are that the front office is moving on from him because they feel they can get a lot of value for him (and they will if he is indeed moved).

 

[RyderRocks73]

I agree with what you're trying to say (our RW depth is not that good), but saying Scherbak is underachieving isn't true. He's 21 and have 30 pts in 45 games in the AHL, he still have potential.

Same for McCarron, 22 yrs old and never giving a chance with good players. Not saying he deserve it right now, but nobody expected him to be a #1/2C at 22.

Can you find 3-4 late first who were top players in the league at 21-22?

Ryan Getzlaf
Corey Perry
Max Pacioretty
Claude Giroux
Mike Richards
Martin Brodeur

 

[CaptDenisPotvin]

Barrie is underrated. Hamonic really is not worlds better overall. And I wouldn't call Hamonic a legit top pairing D either. He sure can play it but he is not one of the top end #2 Ds in this league.

I think Barrie and EJ on the right side would be a very good combination if the LHDs and bottom pairing wouldn't consist of guys that should be on the second pairing in the AHL right now (like it did for the Avs for the last few years).

EJ - Hamonic - Zadorov IMO does not have enough offense and puckmoving ability to form a great D core. Zads has potential in that department but he is not there yet and just go injured unfortunately.

To me Hamonic is simply a worse version of EJ. That is nice to have but you really shouldn't give up Duchene for him if you already have EJ. Especially when you have a guy like Meloche also being in the AHL next year who also is a defensive oriented RHD.

Add that both Barrie and EJ combine for 11.5 M in salary and there is no way that this deal wouldn't lead to some sort of follow up deal. Which kind of defeats the point of moving Duchene in the first place.

I don't want to lose Barrie and Duchene just to accomodate a deal involving Hamonic that I don't even like.

Honestly the 1st and prospect does not even matter to me all that much. It has to be there in this deal because of a lack of overall value otherwise but it really shouldn't be the main selling point in any deal. Especially if it is a 2017 1st.

Avs have a chance to set up their D for the foreseeable future if they get those Duchene/Landy situations right.

If Sakic can get one of Hanifin / Chabot / Chychrun or even Sergachev (although I think he is pretty risky) or McAvoy (RHD but he has the potential to replace one of Barrie/ EJ and make it worth it for the Avs), the Avs could set themselves up very nicely for the future.

One of those guys + Zadorov + Bigras on the left side + EJ + Barrie + Meloche on the right side would be a very decent group going forward.

If you bring in Hamonic and trade Barrie or EJ, you will still have a gaping hole on the left side next to the guy that does not get to play with Zadorov and no real way to adress it.

And I would really like to fill that


To me Hamonic does not make any sense. Avs would get older and not really fill a need while losing their best trading chip by far.

Well im glad the 1st and the prospect dont matter to you to much...cause quite honestly i wouldnt do the trade with them. Hamonic OR Pulock (with POSSIBLY a pick involved as well). Do we think Duchene is better than Hall? And by how much would ya say? Would love to Duchene in an Islanders uniform but think Barzal/Pulock+Hamonic + 1st rounder is obsurd. Hall for Larsson straight up but Duchene is gonna cost what????

 

[Jarey Curry]

Then you know nothing about the Avs ownership. They don't give a **** about hockey or the Avs. Our owner, the real one, not his puppet son, hasn't been to a game since game 7 of the cup finals in 2001. I would be surprised if he even still remembers he owns the team. The media in denver also doesn't care, hardly covers them at all. Sakic has absolutely no pressure on him at all to do anything. He can sit back and lose Duchene to UFA and nothing will happen to him, which is unfortunate to the fans who do care.

Bloody rich beings wouldn't wanna mingle with normal folks and enjoy what normal people enjoys. They can count their billions in their ivory towers all day for all I care. It is already too much to know that they live on the same planet where there's poor people, give them a break will ya!

 

[Mad Brills*]

This isn't happening until the draft honestly.

 

[twostroke27]

This. It's gonna be a fun 4 months of arguing his value over and over and over.